my first paludarium attempt

[76brian]

Hey folks, I posted this over in the introductions section but I thought it might get more views here.

I'm using is a 36x13x18 tank. I built a stand, and an 8" high false bottom on one end, here's a pic with the water level about where I want it. I still have to cover the structure with fiberglass window screen at this point...



I would have gone across the long side of the tank with the false bottom, but I thought the tank was too narrow at 13" to do that, plus from where it will be situated in the house, I want it to be viewed from both sides. I'll try to make it look as good as I can but I know it's not ideal for this kind of setup.

You can see in the back right corner, I built a cage to house an internal filter (using a whisper 40i). I'll be able to remove it easily for maintenance, and will be able to cover it for more dry area. The output of the filter is about 3" above the false floor, so I have room to build a waterfall/stream kind of thing in front of the pump as well. Here's a closer view of that



Since the filter will be drawing its water through the false bottom, I've been toying with the idea of using the space under it for bio-balls or something similar for added surface area. Not sure how this will work in the long run though, so I might not do that.

I have no idea what substrate I'm going to use yet either. I'm thinking flourite probably, with a layer of moss or something on top for the land area. I might even change the structure a bit from what it is now, it might be a bit too big. I don't know what the hell I'm doing, I'm just winging it. So if anyone has any input on it, or see's potential problems, I'd love to hear it!

[76brian]

So here it is with some dryscape and in its almost final position. The end will be even with the end of my desk, it's viewable from both sides.



I didn't put any bio material underneath, I figured it wouldn't have been worth my while, and may have impeded flow to the filter.

I'm still playing with the layout of the rocks, and I'm pretty sure I'll be adding some more wood too. This is definitely not the spectrum of light I want either so that will also change.

I have a question, if anyone would be able to help. Should I put water in it, run the pump and let the chlorine and water clear over the weekend... and start the cycle monday? ...or should I plant it first, and then add water at that time?

[Peekay]

I think I would do a wet test... fill, check if the filter works as you want it to with the water at the level you want.  See if that gravel stays on the slope when the waterfall starts running.  It will be shallow enough to plant fairly easily if all that works.  (not based on experience, just thinking of what the possible issues are going to be!)

That is looking very, very cool!

[exv152]

Neat looking project you have there! I would say you can plant it at anytime since it's a paludarium the water level is quite low so planting is easy. I would fill it with dechlorinated water and let the system run for a few days. Are you adding a heater under the slope? It would be a good place to put it given it'll be hidden and in an are with good flow.

[Nerine]

wow very nice!

[bettabreeder]

Awesome looking! Definitely going to pay attention to how this one turns out


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[76brian]

Thank you all!

So I went ahead and put water in it, you're right it won't be hard to plant at all. I think a cycled tank might be better for them to start off anyways. I hope this water clears up. This is 10 minutes or so after filling. I used Flourite Dark, and I rinsed the hell out of before putting it in the tank, but it never did run 100% clear. Hopefully everything will settle and the filter will clear whatever is floating around. I have no charcoal in it, maybe I should use some?



I'm hoping I can find a nice piece of wood that will go diagonally across the surface of the water. On the sloped section I plan on using hairgrass or something simlar. The filter area is pretty ugly, but that will be covered with a top of live moss.

Are you adding a heater under the slope? It would be a good place to put it given it'll be hidden and in an are with good flow.

In the pic above, you can see a heater right next to the filter. It's not plugged in yet, does anyone think it will be a problem having it that close to the filter? There should be lots of water flow there, but will it still melt the plastic filter or the plastic egg-crate? I can still put it under the surface, but I'd have to buy a new one I think. This is a Tronic 150w, which is supposed to be submersible but it has a water level line on it so I'm not sure I trust it.

[Darth]

they all have a water level line for where the water should not be under, so say its part in and part out you want to have it under the water at a certain level.

Amazing job so far, can't wait to see it finshed!

[zoom111]

Nice build, I love your style of winging it yet you know what your looking for in the final product.

The heater will not melt anything underwater, the water will act as a coolant so to speak ? Almost like holding a lighter to a water bottle, the plastic will not melt through because the water.

[76brian]

I picked up a new heater and hid it underneath.

There's loads of room under there. I really should have done that differently, it's just wasted space. Oh well. Good reason for a second tank later on... I can build something different

So the waters been in there with 2 pumps moving it around since Friday, so it should be chlorine free by now. I'm going to add a few zebra danios tomorrow and hopefully find some established tank water and filter media to kick things into gear (anyone want to volunteer? )

Then I need to find a new light and I'll start adding plants. I wasn't going to use co2... but then I found this laying around...



It's got gas, it has a regulator and a little valve at the bottom... and then that piece of hose. I've never done co2 before, what else do I need? I've heard of bubble counters and diffusers but I have no idea what they are or how they work. Are they expensive? If it's going to cost a bunch of money to go that route I'll probably just skip it.

[Stussi613]

Even though you've let the water run for a few days I'd probably add some prime to be safe. Ottawa uses chloramine instead of chlorine in the water supply and the time to dissipate is quite a bit longer, even with carbon.  Increased ammonia is another factor since its an ammonia derivative, Prime also takes care of that.

You'll probably want to go bubble counter since you don't really have filter hoses to inject into, or even hoses to put a homemade diffuser inline.

[76brian]

Thanks, I'll add some prime too, just in case. I'm not in the city, I'm about 40 minutes out of town. There's a water tower here in this little hamlet I'm in, but I don't know if it's fed by city of Ottawa, or somewhere else, better safe than sorry though.

[Jeff1192]

You may find that you have a really hard time if you introduce CO2 into that style of a tank. With your waterfall you'll be out gassing a lot of CO2 and you'll probably have a hard time maintaining stable CO2 levels. With CO2 you usually want to limit the amount of surface agitation.

Jeff

[charlie]

You may find that you have a really hard time if you introduce CO2 into that style of a tank. With your waterfall you'll be out gassing a lot of CO2 and you'll probably have a hard time maintaining stable CO2 levels. With CO2 you usually want to limit the amount of surface agitation.

Jeff

X2
In regards to what else you need as per pic. posted- a needle valve to further reduce the amount of gas delivered to the tank & a very effective way of dissolving the gas into the water column due to co 2 off gassing as Jeff mentioned & tubing, if you want to turn it off at nights a solenoid would be needed.
If it`s feasible for you - this Saturday there is a mini w/shop on CO2 & Planted tanks + several other aspects of the hobby. Also do a search on this forum i think they are a few threads on the topic
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54519.0
Happy fishkeeping

[exv152]

If you're planning on keeping low maintenance plants, there's really no need for co2. There are many plants that don't require pressurized co2 to survive and do well. Plus, there's the water fall thingy, which isn't ideal for co2, as already mentioned. If you plan on doing more delicate plants and you want to go with the co2 idea, you're gonna need:

needle valve
bubble counter
solenoid
check valve
Co2 resistant hosing
Diffuser
Good lighting
Ferts (macro and micro)

[76brian]

Thanks folks. I guess I'll forget the co2 and hang onto it for another project. I didn't realize it could be a problem in this setup.

The event on saturday, looks interesting, perhaps I'll check it out! Thanks.

[Greatwhite]

That's coming along very nicely... I may have a winter project planned by the end of your build.

[Stussi613]

Thanks folks. I guess I'll forget the co2 and hang onto it for another project. I didn't realize it could be a problem in this setup.

The event on saturday, looks interesting, perhaps I'll check it out! Thanks.

We'd love to have you come out!  There will be talks, a swap meet, a chance to meet other hobyists and the members of the exec...as well as a table to buy a membership and support the club. I'll be at the library table, if you make it please stop by and introduce yourself.

[76brian]

So I added 4 Zebra Danios on Monday, and I'm testing regularly. Ammonia still at 0 though.

I need a proper light fixture, so I'll definitely show up on Saturday and see what I can get my hands on. I *really* want to get some plants too, so I can start making this thing more complete, but unfortunately I have to wait for the cycle to finish

I'll probably buy a membership too. I'm already thinking I might have a second (maybe third!) tank before the end of this winter. I haven't kept fish in years, but even looking at this barren tank with the few fish I have, reminds me how much I miss it.

[daworldisblack]

You can add plants before it finishes cycling even - dont see why not. It might even help cycle if there are beneficial bacteria on the plants themselves (might be negligible amounts though).

[Stussi613]

Plants aren't affected by the cycle, I'd add them in right away. Have you thought about using an Ikea desk lamp with a better bulb in it for your tank?  Lots of people get good plant growth with them. Unless you're planning to put in something that could get out of the tank I'd say leaving it open would look amazing.

[76brian]

You can add plants before it finishes cycling even - dont see why not. It might even help cycle if there are beneficial bacteria on the plants themselves (might be negligible amounts though).

Plants aren't affected by the cycle, I'd add them in right away. Have you thought about using an Ikea desk lamp with a better bulb in it for your tank?  Lots of people get good plant growth with them. Unless you're planning to put in something that could get out of the tank I'd say leaving it open would look amazing.

This is going to be my first "real" attempt at aquatic plants, so I don't know much about starting them up. I had them before, but I didn't have a proper substrate or proper light, so they didn't do too well. A couple people at the stores have told me to cycle it first, because right now there's no nutrients for the plants. It made sense to me but I dunno ?? Thanks for letting me know.

I was hoping for either poison dart frogs or firebellied toads eventually... or maybe newts? I dunno yet. What kind of environment I end up with will determine my path as far as that goes. I want the whole thing to be well established before I add those... So yeah, I want the top enclosed for this one. An open top tank is on my radar already though!

So if I find a good light on saturday or before, I guess I'll start adding plants right away

[exv152]

I would even take it a step further, by adding plants early it helps reduce ammonia and nitrites by soaking a certain amount up. Plants are not affected by ammonia and nitrites like fish are. At first most of the necessary micro nutrients are already in the water like iron, magnesium, calcium etc. You may need to add macro nutrients like - nitrate, potassium and phoshorus. Here is an excellent list of plants that would do well with low to medium lighting and can be easy to incorporated into a paludarium. http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/difficulty/easy.aspx

[76brian]

Here is an excellent list of plants that would do well with low to medium lighting and can be easy to incorporated into a paludarium. http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/difficulty/easy.aspx

That's an awesome link, thank you! I will put that to good use!

[Jeff1192]

Definitely no harm in adding plants before it's fully cycled! There's never a bad time to add plants....haha

[zoom111]

You might benefit from 1 or 2 led flood lights on eBay. I would opt for the 10w as that would be plenty. At 15$ ea. you can't go wrong, just be sure to get the 6500k model.

[76brian]

I planted an emersed Anubias Angustifolia ...the dude at the store told me it only gets 8" tall, but after planting it (THEN looking it up... duh!) I found out it gets 12". I'm going to have to move it into deeper water I think. I do like where it is though. Once I get some moss on top of the filter housing it will look nicer in that area.



I also picked up some microsorum windelov, which I didn't know at the time is actually a java fern. The guy said the same thing, only 8" or so... but I know java ferns get HUGE, so I ended up buying way too much of it... I put it all in the tank in random places anyways, I'll figure out what to do with it later. I didn't have any wood to tie it to so I stuck some between rocks... it will be partially emersed as well. I just put the rest of it in the substrate. I'll see what happens. I don't think I want this much of it scattered. One little bunch would have been fine. Maybe it will grow nice and I can give some away to someone.



I'm completely frustrated right now though. How the hell do you guys get roots to stick into this flourite crap? I had a hard enough time with the java fern, never mind when it comes time for little strands of hairgrass or something. This crap is as bad as gravel. BLAH. Did I mention I'm a complete rookie at plants? Hopefully as I gradually add plants, the huge amount of foliage will eventually cover up my lack of aquascaping skills? I dunno  

[sas]

Take it easy, we've all been where you are at the moment as far as growing plants although not taking on a paludarium project.

I'm no plant expert but found I just had to try plants out and experiment.
Everyone's.
water, lights etc., are different .

One thing right off I can tell you is the java fern does not like to be planted, tie it to drift wood, rocks or whatever, it likes its' roots exposed.

Check out this website,

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=da&u=http://www.tropica.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtropica%2Bplant%2Bcatalogue%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DWRt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26prmd%3Dimvns&sa=X&ei=tcRbUK68NcLzyAHFgoC4BQ&ved=0CD8Q7gEwAg

I'm trying to find the tropica book that I had online but I'm on a secondary computer and it's not here so.........maybe another member has the better link than I provided. If not I'll keep trying.

[Greatwhite]

In the past, I knew nothing about planted tanks, but I had a 20G fresh tank with some tetras and danios... and a pleco...?  It was a long time ago.  When I got a plant, I would tie it to a rock and bury the rock in the substrate... That held it down nicely, and it rooted around it.

[exv152]

I wouldn't burry the roots/rhizome of either of those plants because they tend to rot. Attach them to something using string, and tie to driftwood or stone.

[76brian]

Thanks for the link, sas... that might help out. Also, I already pulled up the microsorum and made 2 bunches, each tied to a rock.

As for the anubias, it's wide open water underneath there, the roots will go through the false bottom and just hang in midwater, no? There's not much substrate there. Not sure... I can tie it to a rock too I guess.

[Stussi613]

Thanks for the link, sas... that might help out. Also, I already pulled up the microsorum and made 2 bunches, each tied to a rock.

As for the anubias, it's wide open water underneath there, the roots will go through the false bottom and just hang in midwater, no? There's not much substrate there. Not sure... I can tie it to a rock too I guess.

The roots are okay in the soil, it's the rhizome that needs to be exposed. It's the thick horizontal "stem" at the bottom of the plant.



I hate to say it, but you almost have to envision what the tank will look like when the plants grow out rather than the way it looks first planted.

You've made tremendous progress on this tank already...and to my knowledge you're the only one who has attempted a tank like this in the club, at least as long as I've been here.

[76brian]

More plants... I'm still not really happy with how it looks.

[exv152]

Have you thought of any marginal pond type plants for the water edge? Or some terrestrial plants behind the filter output? Looks good so far.

[76brian]

Have you thought of any marginal pond type plants for the water edge? Or some terrestrial plants behind the filter output? Looks good so far.

Definitely, just haven't made it there yet I want something that will crawl... not necessarily carpet, but crawl, across the surface of the water too. Maybe a philodendron or pothos, but not quite as big? I dunno... I could really use some suggestions for that!

[exv152]

Check some of the best paludariums imo, from the annual AGA aquascaping 2011 contest...might give you some ideas for flora and fauna...

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2011/show143.html

http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2011/show332.html

[76brian]

Those look good, I like that they have "floor plans"... awesome, thanks!

[Biulu]

This is lovely! With regards to 'creeping plants' what about staurogyne repens or hydrocotyle (pennywort)? Both will do well completely submersed as partly emersed, so I would say they are ideal for this kind of setup.

Did you see the use of anubia barteri nana and petite in the second link of 'creeperland'? The picture of the left hand side allows you to see their use in great detail. This might also be something to use.

All the 3 species I mentioned are available in the club in case you can't get them in a store.

[76brian]

This is lovely! With regards to 'creeping plants' what about staurogyne repens or hydrocotyle (pennywort)? Both will do well completely submersed as partly emersed, so I would say they are ideal for this kind of setup.

Thank you!

I've never heard of the repens, but funny you mention pennywort, I brought some home tonight I also stuck a clipping of philodendron (it might be pothos?) in there, but it will likely get too big.

I have anubias angustifolia. It appears to be growing well, and will almost completely emerge through the surface of the water eventually, which should be nice.

The more and more I'm thinking about it, I'm tempted to tear this down and start over. It's very hard to make it look nice when there's so little room to work with and it's open from both sides like this... I'm still going to tinker with it and see if I find a layout I like. I might end up using entirely  foreground type plants. I also regret the choice of flourite... it's next to impossible to plant in close proximity without un-rooting something else, especially the more delicate plants (ie: foreground). I should have used sand

[Stussi613]

I don't find sand any easier to plant in. What you are experiencing is the exact reason many planted folks start their tanks emersed to allow the root systems to build up before they add water.

Patience and a good pair of planting tweezers are your friends now!  Keep at it, you're making such great progress.

[76brian]

Keep at it, you're making such great progress.

Thanks

[76brian]

I've been testing regularly and have never seen much ammonia. I did a small partial water change last night so I thought I'd test again tonight...

Even though it's only been 2 weeks, I thought it was good news...


but then...

The tanks been running with 4 zebra danios for nearly 2 weeks now. I haven't been feeding them lightly either. There's never been more than .25 ppm of ammonia (hard to tell with the colors if it even got to .25), and there's never been nitrite either.

Before you ask, I used prime in the water bucket before it went into the tank... 18gals of water estimated in the tank, I used a 3 gallon bucket with half a cap of prime. The fish are doing great, nicely colored and quite active, plants are growing, and the water is clear... but I don't get this at all. Do I have a magic filter? 

[76brian]

I'll be moving the fish and plants into my other tank and taking this apart. I think I used the wrong silicone. Apparently it has mold/mildew inhibitors, which is why I'm not getting the bacteria established... I knew better... but I wasn't paying close enough attention I guess. That's what happens when you're impatient!

I had done some re-arranging and decorating, and I was starting to like how it looked too. I guess I'll rebuild something like it at a later date. For now though, I fail.

[Greatwhite]

That sucks.   But - from my past experience, it's always better to try something once and fail - because the second time, it'll be AMAZING.

[sas]

That sucks.   But - from my past experience, it's always better to try something once and fail - because the second time, it'll be AMAZING.

Well said.
Good job that you realized your mistake early on.
We've all  made mistakes in this hobby, so you're not alone.

[76brian]

This "thing" is still up and running because I haven't yet found a new tank to move everything over to. The fish are doing well despite the fact the nitrogen cycle isn't happening... and the plants are all growing pretty good too. Water tests still indicate no discernible levels of toxins.

When I realized I made the silicone mistake, I decided shortly after that I would move the light/fish/plants/rocks/wood/substrate from this, along with the fish/plants/wood from my 20 long, all into a new tank... then I would use the 20 long for the shell dwellers I want. None of it can happen until I decide on a new tank for all the plants and fish I already have though.

I've been leaning towards buying a 40 breeder, hanging the light from the ceiling and leaving the top open for riparium plants above the planted aquascape. It may be hard to balance having surface plants and still allow the submerged plants to get enough light, but I have a 4x36" T5HO fixture so I definitely have enough light overall. Thankfully most of the plants I have are pretty undemanding, but I just don't have the knowledge to balance light and nutrients, etc. so it seems much more difficult to me. Maybe too much to learn here.

So on the other hand, part of me wants to forget the plants, because I suck at "aquascaping" as well. In this case I would go for a bit bigger tank, and when it's ready get some mid-size african cichlids (piling rocks is much easier than planting, amirite?!). Unfortunately I would then have about $150 worth of flourite and plants (and fish!) that are useless, and a really expensive light fixture that I won't need. I would definitely not get my investment back out of any of it. In addition to losing money on that, it would cost more to get going... however it may be more rewarding to me than the above setup (more colorful, active larger fish with some personality), and may be more sustainable for me long term.

Then again, yet another part wants to do saltwater with live rock, in which case my light fixture will be useful. I doubt I will do this, it's probably too expensive and too much effort... but it's on my mind and I think it might be the most rewarding of all of them in the end.

If I had the money (and the space!), I'd do it all lol ...but since I can't, I'm plagued by too many options and indecision at the moment. I wish I'd started out with a little bit more direction, but I jumped in head first. I'm enthusiastic about it, but I'm also impatient and I want it all now... I know that is not a good trait for this hobby, so I'm trying my best to make a wise decision on something I can sustain long term, both financially and effort vs reward wise.

Sorry for the wall of text but if anyone has words of wisdom on any of these ideas, I'm open to hearing it. That's why I'm here There are probably factors I'm not considering because I'm blinded by my impatience.

[exv152]

I've been leaning towards buying a 40 breeder, hanging the light from the ceiling and leaving the top open for riparium plants above the planted aquascape. It may be hard to balance having surface plants and still allow the submerged plants to get enough light, but I have a 4x36" T5HO fixture so I definitely have enough light overall. Thankfully most of the plants I have are pretty undemanding, but I just don't have the knowledge to balance light and nutrients, etc. so it seems much more difficult to me. Maybe too much to learn here.

I can assure you the 4x39W 36" T5HO bulbs are way too much light. Even if you hung the fixture 36" from the substrate, you would still have too much light. Are you able to cut that back to two bulbs instead of four? That would be much more inline with a med intensity light. Watts per gallon is not an accurate means of measurement with T5HO bulbs, you have to know what the PAR is, and I guess it would be somewhere above 100 micromols. Anything over 50 is considered high already. If you can't reduce the number of bulbs, try a T8, or a T5NO fixture if that's doable.

[76brian]

I can assure you the 4x39W 36" T5HO bulbs are way too much light.

Yep, I was warned about that already, but it's what I'm using above this tank and it's been on there for 3 weeks or so with no signs of problems yet. In this current setup it's only about 20" above the substrate.

I did however take steps to cut back the light output. I only run one bulb for 10 hours a day (39w 5000k flora-sun). There is a second bulb (39w 10,000k), but it is only on for 5 hours of the day in the middle of the 10 hour period. I also cut a piece of fiberglass window screen to the right size and laid it on the inside of the lexan shield inside the fixture (between the bulbs and tank). It cuts back on the brightness a fair bit. I will probably remove this screen and use both bulbs for about 7-8 hours a day if I go with the planted tank/surface plants option, but I'll seek out advice on that.

I know the it's WAY overkill, it's the AquaticLife unit with the timer system built in. The thing is I got it cheaper than I could have had a standard dual T5 fixture, and it gives me room to... "grow" if I ever want to do high tech or SW.

[76brian]

Are you able to cut that back to two bulbs instead of four? That would be much more inline with a med intensity light.

So you're saying that if two 39w T5HO lamps are 36" from the substrate, that's likely to be medium light?

I can go as high as 40" above the substrate but I'd much rather be lower.

What about the same two lamps, with window screen in front of them to cut back the intensity a bit, at lets say... 24" above the substrate? Obviously I'd need a PAR reading, but failing that, do you believe this would get me in the ballpark of "medium"? This will be for a different setup, I tore this tank down last night.

[exv152]

Actually two T5HO bulbs at 36" (regardless of the wattage) would be on the cusp of med-low, maybe even on the low end more. If you held the fixture 28" from the substrate, you'd be at about med-high, and around 20" it would be considered definitely high intensity. If you don't have a PAR meter you're better off just doing some trial and error attempts. As for a window screen, that's a great idea, but again it's a trial & error thing, but I would say you can definitely hang the fixture closer to the substrate. I personally prefer the look of an open top tank because of the aesthetic aspect.

As a side note, and from personal experience, I would aim for low light intensity in your case. With low light there is no need for any addition of CO2, whereas with med light you will run the risk of encountering issues with different sorts of algae, to varying degrees.  Best advice I can give anyone is to begin small and work your way up.

[76brian]

I definitely prefer it to be open also... that's what it will be, I just don't want the light too far above as I think it would spread too much light into the room and make it hard to see the tank. I would like the tank to be lit but the room to be darker.

Thanks for your input. I really wish I could buy or borrow a PAR meter, but I'll experiment a bit before I go to the expense of buying. I just wanted some confirmation I guess. I'm going to aim for 26" from the substrate to start off, but I'll use window screen. Based on what you're saying, I think that would get me in the high end of the 'low" range. I do want a few surface plants as well, so that will definitely cut back on the light under water.