My frontosa gets fungus every month :(

[KarEn]

Hello dear members. :-)

It's been a while since I posted here.

I have a 9 year old Cichlid tank. One of the fronts started getting "sick" at least once a month.
My wife is a doctor, so last month we decided to do a micro surgery. I pulled this guy out of the tank, we removed the fungus, cleaned it, disinfected the area and let him go back. After about 5 min he was very happy. Next day there was no trace of any fungus or even the wound healed and was not noticeable.
I do frequent (every 3 weeks) 40% water changes. Water is tested weekly - nothing abnormal.
Today I am seeing the fungus again.  I tried to take pictures as best as I could.

In the past I tried maracyn 2 - useless. Salt - no help either, just made a lot of mess in the tank.

Any help would be appreciated. I don't feel comfy doing another micro surgery and digging inside of the fish's wound. It seems like there is something in his body tissue that wants to come out maybe?

What should I do? I don't want to lose him. He's been an Alpha male for 9 years now (he's about 9,5 - 10 years old).

Thank you!

[bitterman]

Sorry to see you are having some problems.

First I thing you need to increase your water changes for the next bit. Fish from Lake Tanganyika are more sensitive to parameters. Things might just be slightly off and not noticable on any tests. I do about 170 Gallon water change a week on my180 that has a 50 gallon sump.

It is possible he ran into something. Do you have anything in the tank like a featherfin catfish? When they get bit they can get agressive and this could be damage from  one of the sharp spines. I had this occur in my burundi tank.

I would keep up with the salt and also put epson salt in the tank at 1 cup per 100 gallons.

If you have a bunch of males in the tank this one could be more stressed as more dominante males pick on him.

I'm not sure what meds would be best as Ihave never had an issue like this that increased water changes, salt and epson salts wouldnot fix in a few days to a week.

Bruce

[KarEn]

Sorry to see you are having some problems.

First I thing you need to increase your water changes for the next bit. Fish from Lake Tanganyika are more sensitive to parameters. Things might just be slightly off and not noticable on any tests. I do about 170 Gallon water change a week on my180 that has a 50 gallon sump.

That's a lot of water changes. Every time I have issues in the tank, I do about 30% of water change every week.

It is possible he ran into something. Do you have anything in the tank like a featherfin catfish? When they get bit they can get agressive and this could be damage from  one of the sharp spines. I had this occur in my burundi tank.

I suppose he could ran into something, but the fungus looks like just a fungus (no signs of a scratch or anything). I do have a catfish, but he's always sitting under rocks upside-down. I doubt he'd bother anyone.

I would keep up with the salt and also put epson salt in the tank at 1 cup per 100 gallons.

This is news to me. I never heard of that. I'll research on it. Thank you!

If you have a bunch of males in the tank this one could be more stressed as more dominante males pick on him.

2 more males, but they are scared of this one. This guy dominates the entire tank. 

I'm not sure what meds would be best as Ihave never had an issue like this that increased water changes, salt and epson salts wouldnot fix in a few days to a week.

Bruce

I will try that tonight (epson salt). Thank you very much!

[markw]

I definately agree with Bruce with regard to the water changes. I do minimum 50% weekly on all tanks, and more depending on health issues. The epsom salts are beneficial in that they increase magnesium levels to better replicate the mineral content in their natural habitat. Used in conjunction with sea salt and sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) it makes a good buffer. The salt content could also aid in small health ailments.

[torin32]

Adding salt will just create a thin coat of slime to the fish tricking its body into thinking its sick all the time.  It may have some benefits but salt in all is a mislead treatment.  Try to seprate the fish and use antibiotics from a fish store.  You would probably have more success.  Salt in small doses will not hurt the fish, but at the same time many think it helps alot with ailments when this is not the case.  Research adding salt in cichlid tanks and you will get mixed results.  I think using it for small period of time might help with body slime and thats about it.  Any of your other fish contract the same fungus  find it starnge only one gets it, watch the others dont contract the same ailment.  Good luck I hope your front gets better.

[markw]

Adding salt will just create a thin coat of slime to the fish tricking its body into thinking its sick all the time.  It may have some benefits but salt in all is a mislead treatment.  Try to seprate the fish and use antibiotics from a fish store.  You would probably have more success.  Salt in small doses will not hurt the fish, but at the same time many think it helps alot with ailments when this is not the case.  Research adding salt in cichlid tanks and you will get mixed results.  I think using it for small period of time might help with body slime and thats about it.  Any of your other fish contract the same fungus  find it starnge only one gets it, watch the others dont contract the same ailment.  Good luck I hope your front gets better.

I think we need to be careful when we consider the use of antibiotics in the hobby. Often, even when an ailment is undiagnosed, the first thing considered is broad based antibiotics.(cure all remedy!). Problem is, when we use antibiotics so freely, we cause wider based immunity to the drugs we rely on when really needed. Antibiotics should be used after an exact diagnosis has been made, either through an necropsy or very definitive history. And then only a specific antibiotic that will target the ailment and not just go to further impede its effectiveness. I have in stock 4 different antibiotics that I have used. I only used them after sending a fish to a lab for a necropsy and waiting for the results with a prescription for the antibiotic. I treat with salt, temperature and large water changes first.

[torin32]

You do have a great point but unfortunately we all don't have access to that kind of money to perform those kinds of tests.  He has stated that he gets fungus every month I was assuming the ailment was known.  using an antibiotic once will not allow the fish to get immune to it.  It would require multiple uses more than a phew times how else is this individual going to treat his fish just let it keep going or try something.  I totally agree getting proper diagnosis from a professional is always ideal but lets face it how many of us actually travel this expensive road.  Not trying to bash you just stating common facts I am sure you are very knowledgeable wish fish.

[Anja]

If it is indeed a fungus, an antibiotic won't help. Antibiotics are by definition medications that are effective against bacteria, not viruses or fungi. I wish I had something more positive too contribute, but was hoping I might at least clear up some confusion. Keeping my fingers crossed for your big guy.

[KarEn]

Yes, it is fungus....unfortunately. And before (last year) I tried Maracyn II - and it didn't work. I tried something else (can't remember) Big Al's guy suggested, and it was useless as well.
I added Epsom salt and some baking soda 2 days ago. So far nothing is happening, but I assume it's still too early.
I may just remove the fungus manually again this weekend, and hope it heals and never comes back. It actually grew a bit bigger now about 3 mm in length and 2 mm thick.
Will see what happens. If this guy dies.... I'll be selling the entire tank...

[sas]

What about doing the debriding and cleaning of the lesion at the same time as you treat with the salts?

I've also been told that these types of lesions can occur when a fish is stressed IE) being picked on,
immune system is lowered or it's lacking in some dietary portion.

I'd contact my vet as well, they often find this type of problem a welcome challenge.
Keep us posted, your guy looks quite handsome, be a shame to lose him.

[KarEn]

What about doing the debriding and cleaning of the lesion at the same time as you treat with the salts?

I've also been told that these types of lesions can occur when a fish is stressed IE) being picked on,
immune system is lowered or it's lacking in some dietary portion.

I'd contact my vet as well, they often find this type of problem a welcome challenge.
Keep us posted, your guy looks quite handsome, be a shame to lose him.

This is what I was saying earlier. I wanted to do that.

Anyways, about two hours ago I pulled George (that's his name ) out of the tank and placed on the "surgery table". It took me 8 cotton swabs (the ones we use to clean ears) to remove the fungus and clean the wound. A minute later George was happily enjoying air bubbles in the tank. Tomorrow I'll do 50% water change and add more Epsom salt + soda.

I took some pictures after the "procedure". There are two pics with zoomed wound: one was the older wound that healed long ago, and the bigger wound is the one after I removed the fungus. I am still unsure if it was a fungus... it was like a piece of ....tissue?... attached to that hole. Don't know how to describe it.

Thank you all who participated and for all your help! I hope George gets better soon.

[torin32]

  Man thats to bad dont give up, I hope everything works out.  I have a nice male i rescued from Big als, they dont feed there fish very well there his belly was all sunken in.  If anything were to happen you may have a look at him for a replacement for your female.  I hope it doesnt resort to that, I want your fish to pull through just saying there is an option if you want to keep your tank going. I would like to help keep your interest in the hobby going. Good luck keep us posted.

[KarEn]

Not giving up yet. This morning he's been happily swimming. I am not feeding them since Wednesday (don't want any water contamination). Will feed them tonight and do 50-60 water change.

P.S. I should've taken a picture of him before removing that fungus - it grew nasty...

[sas]

Awesome job!
Great pics, thanks for posting them, he is very good looking.
obviously you're doing a great job.
I wonder if changing up his diet might help as well? Don't know what you are feeding,
but might be something to think about. That way you have all bases covered.
Also maybe treating the edges of the wound with something, before he goes back into the tank?
I have no clue what you would use, but maybe even very dilute tea tree oil?

[KarEn]

Thanks!

I feed these two diet foods:

[KarEn]

I have been watching youtube today - lake tanganyika, and this is what I learnt...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wonYRF4e4sI
Scroll to Min: 8:00
eats only the scale?
what fish is this? isn't it the one I have in my tank that has different stripes than my frontosas?

[sas]

Great video thanks for putting a link to it.

I'm not sure if the fish in the vid is the one that you have, I'm definitely no
expert .
Hopefully our cichlid experts will jump in here?

Are you thinking he's doing the damage?
The injury is really localized and the fish in the video were actually scraping
other fish sides so I don't think they are causing the lesion.

[markw]

I have been watching youtube today - lake tanganyika, and this is what I learnt...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wonYRF4e4sI
Scroll to Min: 8:00
eats only the scale?
what fish is this? isn't it the one I have in my tank that has different stripes than my frontosas?

The fish in the video is Neolamprologus tretocephalus. Often confused with frontosa and sexfasciatus.

[KarEn]

Then I guess it's not what I have in my tank. Mine has 7 stripes.
Thanks Mark.


P.S. The fronts are still happy after the water change.

[KarEn]

I am happy to report that I am now officially a fish surgeon. :-)
It's been over a month since I did two more "surgeries" on my frontosa and that parasite is now gone. Wound is healed and he is happy. :-)