*sigh* still have cyano...help!

[RoxyDog]

Ok peoples, heeeeeeeeeeeeelp!    I use R/O water.  I had my water tested, no phosphates, little to no nitrates.  I just added a hydor #2 (600gph) to one side of the tank and have 2x AC 30s (174gph) on the other side, one pointed across the top, the other across the middle-ish.  That would be lots of flow right?  So why does my sandbed still get cyano?  

[Alchemist]

AC is the hang on the back thing right?  I have a 25G with two powerheads (one a Koralia), a HOB skimmer (like an AC) and a Fluval canister filter output I also have a small airstone....no cyano.

You might need another powerhead pointed down towards the problem area.  Those small AC filters don't move a lot of water horizontally.

[GSM]

Ok peoples, heeeeeeeeeeeeelp!    I use R/O water.  I had my water tested, no phosphates, little to no nitrates.  I just added a hydor #2 (600gph) to one side of the tank and have 2x AC 30s (174gph) on the other side, one pointed across the top, the other across the middle-ish.  That would be lots of flow right?  So why does my sandbed still get cyano?  

I had a very frustrating time with Cyano with my first 20g setup 2 years ago.  The battle lasted about 6 months.  No skimmer, used tap water with Aquasafe and no macro algae.  Lots of light (2x65w pC).  Fed clownfish every day.

I cut back on the feedings and light at first - also changed to new bulbs (mine were about 9 months old).  This had very little impact.  Flow directed at the cyano helped a bit but disturbed the sand bed more than I liked.

Started using RO/DI - again, small improvement.  

Added a Remora skimmer, phosban media in an aquaclear filter and a ball of cheato - Cyano was gone in a week.

Phosphates could be present and still read 0 on your test - its simply being used up by the cyano.

[groan]

roxy didnt you just add the hydor?
give it time. the cyano may still go away with the new amount of flow.
i had a huge dead area in the front lower lefvt of my tank because the old AC400 powerhead i had in there was not puling in and putting out enough water. i removed it and oput in the K2 and that dead spot and any others are all gone now. i hadnt had cyano ina while now, but with this much flow i doubt i'll see it again.
i now have 2 k2's (600 GPH each) and a AC something or other, probably about 400 GPH, PLUS my AC 70 HOB filter-turned-fuge. the inhabitants seem very happy. now if i can just keep on top of the water changes!

[groan]

OH! and someone recently told me about a little known cure...Sugar.
I beleive he said Pat told him about it. ask pat about using sugar for cyano.
This person, who's name is escaping me..i just bought my leather from him, had a bad cyano problem adn tried everythign. pat told him about the sugar and it was gone within a week (i think) and hasnt returned in months.

[Shrimpy]

OH! and someone recently told me about a little known cure...Sugar.
I beleive he said Pat told him about it. ask pat about using sugar for cyano.
This person, who's name is escaping me..i just bought my leather from him, had a bad cyano problem adn tried everythign. pat told him about the sugar and it was gone within a week (i think) and hasnt returned in months.

I had a problem with cyano in my nano and did the same thing. Sugar. All my cyano was gone in a week also. Hasn't come back either. For a nano you don't need much either. I think I was putting in 1/4 of a teaspoon every day for a week on my 10g. The recommended dosage is 1 teaspoon sugar for every 100 gallons on a daily basis. 

[RoxyDog]

Sorry, the AC's are powerheads, not filters.  The phosphates thing, i keep forgetting about that!  But I don't feed a lot, and use R/O water, so where are the phosphates coming from? 
I guess I am frustrated b/c I siphoned out all the cyano, or as much as I could and added the new powerhead, but it still came back.  Pat did tell me about the sugar thing, I guess now it's time to try it... 

[Julie]

Since you are losing Shrimps, you may be having nitrate spikes which could be related to the cyano.

[RoxyDog]

True.  My newest shrimps are happy as pigs so I think it was the heat...I hope anyway.  Did my first dose of sugar.  Wish me luck!

[kennyman]

Good luck 

You'll get the better of it. It was not too long ago you upgraded to this bigger tank right?

[RoxyDog]

It's been long enough?  Months...?

[Julie]

Here's one for your bedtime reading: http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

[gvv]

Instead of sugar some people are using vodka...
But as I understood in both cases you should be very careful, especially when you will stop dosing.

Regards

[redbelly]

If you are going to use sugar (or have already used sugar) put an air bubbler on the tank. The benificial bacteria bloom that you will experience from using sugar can actually consume the oxygen in you tank and cause some real problem. If you have a skimmer this isnt a concern, but on a small tank with no skimmer it could be.

Although some people have had great success dosing with sugar on a daily basis I wouldnt do it. As GVV pointed out it can be bad news when you stop. It does work quite well though to clear up cyano and often it will never come back.

When we moved here in Jan I set up and stocked the bowfront in the bedroom rather quickly. As it is a pipe fish tank, I only had a pro 3 power head and ccs 65 in the tank and i got a cyano out break. At the time I was doing a ton of reading on the sugar craze and decided to give it a try myself. I dosed the tank with a sugar pack sized portion and by the next day the cyano was gone entirely. Due to the very low flow it did come back about a month later. I dosed again and that was the end of it.

[Julie]

Cyano seems to be always in the midst, it's a bacteria.    Bacteria can be deviant in many ways.

[RoxyDog]

Pat, so you just did the one dose?  Are you saying try one bigger dose instead of a little every day then?
I did about 1/4 tsp last night and left the lights off today.  Maybe I'll get lucky and it'll all be gone when I get home.    I am a little leery of dosing the sugar.  But what little patience I had has run out!

[redbelly]

Did you put an air bubbler on? Oxygen is important.
A 1/4 tsp should be good. Did you dump it right on the cyano? As this seems to help.

I dont like the idea of dosing every day as the bacteria cultures that develop are dependant on you dosing sugar so when you forget or stop to dose they crash. Hence why you will read about people having to wean their tank off of sugar (or vodka).

[RoxyDog]

No air bubbler yet, I just pointed a PH to tne surface for more agitation.  I can drop an AC filter on it I guess, I don't have an air pump @ the moment.  I never thought to dump it right on the cyano.

[az]

how old are your actinics?

[redbelly]

I believe she is using some newer hagen actinics that she got from super pet but i could be mistaken.

[Tynan Rasmus]

OH! and someone recently told me about a little known cure...Sugar.
I beleive he said Pat told him about it. ask pat about using sugar for cyano.
This person, who's name is escaping me..i just bought my leather from him, had a bad cyano problem adn tried everythign. pat told him about the sugar and it was gone within a week (i think) and hasnt returned in months.

Yep, that would have been me, and it worked wonders for sure! It was about 2 weeks before it was completely gone, started noticably going in the first week.

[RoxyDog]

ya, my actinics are only a month or so old. 

[Severum]

What is the science behind dosing sugar (or vodka)? The bacteria consumes it and grows rapidly and suffocates the cyano?

[Shrimpy]

What is the science behind dosing sugar (or vodka)? The bacteria consumes it and grows rapidly and suffocates the cyano?

yeah kind of, from what I understand the sugar makes the bacteria grow and then the bacteria consumes the nitrates and whatever else the cyano is feeding on. There's lots of info on it elsewhere, but that is the jist of it. Lots of people report a "bacteria bloom" where your tank will get cloudy, but this lasts only a short time. Also reported is very thick and disgusting skimmate and phrases like "My skimmer is going nuts!" lol I never noticed any skimmate difference, but I did have the cloudy tank which lasted a day or two.

[gvv]

After reading this thread and others in the RC, I decided to try yesterday on my office tank - I have pretty much cyano in the refuge section and not in the main one. Love to experiment...
Today my water looks like milk. Cyano is still fine (if you may say so). According to what I read, this sometimes happens. It may affect SPS, but I have only softies there so, we will see.

Regards

[speckledmind]

The recommended dosage is 1 teaspoon sugar for every 100 gallons on a daily basis. 

Interesting thread, guess what just appeared in my tank, yep, Cyano 

If I crank up the flow anymore in my tank, the sand will go flying everywhere, so I guess I will follow suit with this sugar treat and see what happens.

[RoxyDog]

good luck!  my cyano is lessened but not gone with dose #2 (which I increased a bit).  my water has stayed clear so far.  I *must* have enough flow in the tank with the 3 powerheads, so I hope it won't come back!

[Alchemist]

Are you sure the sugar doesn't just cause a bacterial bloom which then competes with the cyano for nutrients.  The bacterial bloom would be your milky water.

[Vallely4]

Do alotta new tanks gets cyano? 
I dont have alot of flow in my tank.... but dont see any sign yet of red cyano algae

Is it just more common with sand beds, mines a barebottom -im curious

[Alchemist]

Do alotta new tanks gets cyano? 
I dont have alot of flow in my tank.... but dont see any sign yet of red cyano algae

Is it just more common with sand beds, mines a barebottom -im curious

Your tank is relatively new.....you'll get some soon.

[speckledmind]

Are you sure the sugar doesn't just cause a bacterial bloom which then competes with the cyano for nutrients.  The bacterial bloom would be your milky water.

I'm kind of leaning toward this possibility right now.

I will be doing some more research on Cyano, and see what I can come up with, in other words, I will research it to death to find the In's and outs lol

I know one thing.
The lack of flow / water movement was mentioned as being a possible cause, I can eliminate this possibility in my tank.

[Julie]

http://www.agr.gc.ca/pfra/water/algcyano_e.htm

Interesting reading...

[Shrimpy]

I know one thing.
The lack of flow / water movement was mentioned as being a possible cause, I can eliminate this possibility in my tank.

I found that lack of flow is what caused it in my nano. Increasing the flow won't get rid of it, but it will help keep it from returning.

[RoxyDog]

I found that lack of flow is what caused it in my nano. Increasing the flow won't get rid of it, but it will help keep it from returning.

that's good to know.  a couple of my corals seem to be unhappy, but nothing too bad.

[speckledmind]

WoW 
Cyano sure grows fast 
When I posted yesterday, it was the size of a Toony, I took a break from work to feed my fish a couple of minutes ago, and it's now the size of $5 paper money 

Time for the second dose of Sugar I guess.

[RoxyDog]

well, it's gone I think?     some of my corals are NOT happy though, so time for a water change today or tomorrow, and no more sugar.  let's see if the cyano just comes right back or not.

[gvv]

Day 3:
Water crystal clear, corals look like nothing happen, cyano still there as if I didn't do anything...
Continue dosing.

[SuperT]

I'm curious about something....are any of you skimming (because technically the idea is to cause a bacterial bloom that will consume the excess protein (starving the cyno) and then you skim off that extra protein before it resettles in the tank)?

Terry

[Shrimpy]

I'm curious about something....are any of you skimming (because technically the idea is to cause a bacterial bloom that will consume the excess protein (starving the cyno) and then you skim off that extra protein before it resettles in the tank)?

Terry

I was thinking the same thing. From what I've read I think you need a skimmer for this to work. 

[RoxyDog]

no skimmer here...I assumed a water change would take out the extra gunk?

[az]

use a python to drain your substrate with cyano when you do water change, every bit helps.

[speckledmind]

I made an interesting observation during the night ( by luck more than anything else / insomnia ), I noticed that the Cyano became lighter in color, almost transparent after the lights had been off for a while, this happened between 2 am and 4:40 am in the morning, so my deduction is that it's in good part light sensitive, if not depending on photosynthesis.

Any one else want to follow up on this, any and all comments are welcome ?

[groupie02]

I noticed that too but cutting my photo period by a couple of hours did not appear to help.

[kennyman]

Yes it is a bacteria with photosynthetic properties. It is suspected of being the first photosynthetic organism to have existed and credited with being a major contributor to creating an O2 rich atmosphere in the earths early development.

[westmeath]

I have been struggling with cyano myself but I have happened across Poly Ox. The idea here is that your reef system has too much Dissolved Organic Matter and it is acting as a fuel source for the bacteria. Red bacteria is fueled by the Organics while green is photosynthetic. Your protien skimmer removed Organics but only in a simple form that is on the surface of the water molicules. The Poly ox will oxidise, or burn for lack of a better word, the surface of the Cyano bacteria. This will also break down complex organic compounds and allow your protien skimmer to remove them. The Poly Ox is a chemical K2MnO4 ( Potassium Permanganate), you can buy it at Culligan if you need large amounts if you have a really large tank. I hope this helps.

[SuperT]

Hopefully I'm not getting off track here....but why treat the end result (especially with chemicals, sugar, booze etc)?  It took me over a year to adjust my thinking to finding the cause of the problem and eliminating it.  I suppose there are multiple ways of fixing the problem after its identified with upgraded equipment, changed water flow, scrubbers, filters, r/o water, frequent water changes, less food, less lighting, smaller photo period (I think you get the idea).  I personally think the last thing you want to do is add chemicals etc to a reef tank (especially a small one).

Terry

[Alchemist]

I second that...potassium permanganate is a pretty powerful chemical that you can use to clean old dirty aquariums but you have to rinse them thoroughly afterwards.  If you add too much your water will turn purple too.

[speckledmind]

We seem to have a common problem  
So let's fight this beats.

why treat the end result (especially with chemicals, sugar, booze etc)?
I personally think the last thing you want to do is add chemicals etc to a reef tank

This is my usual way of thinking  / doing things, and I should have followed that route, I rather treat the problem at the source, than put a patch on it.

Since I'm new at reef keeping, I did try the sugar thing, but things are getting worst, the Cyano is now creeping up on my LR in one corner of the tank, the other side is clear and has none ( never did ).

All that said.
HELP !

Here is what I have done so far ( apart from trying the sugar, of witch I have stopped ).
- I have adjusted my skimmer so it's pumping out everything it can, it's no longer producing the dry foam, but foam period, and as much as it can.
- I have also cut down on the amount of food that goes into the tank three day ago, and only feed every second day as I have been doing for over a month now.
- I also only feed frozen / thawed, no more dry foods of any kind for the last month.
- I will also follow AZ's suggestion, and vacuum the substrate tomorrow morning ( every bit helps ), as soon as the lights come on.

Any other ideas, or suggestions, don't be shy ?

[Julie]

I lost a fish about a month ago(or perhaps it is due to actinics)and am having a small outbreak of cyano on the substrate on one side of tank.
I've been vacuuming my substrate, decreasing light time and reducing food; it is helping.

[mdugly]

Any other ideas, or suggestions, don't be shy ?

Your tank is young and cyano is normal part of cycle. Different situation if 2 years old, for eg.
-extra water changes (imo, most important)
-siphon
-more flow
-time...

If not already, fully thaw and rinse that frozen food -- that frozen juice is pollution.

-mike

[Julie]

Good point on the juice; I have always defrosted my cubes, worms, bh, on a papertowel or plate, before adding to tank.
Why add pollution; only problem I'm having in the defrost; is the marine angel cube - I can't seem to separate all the particles from the paper towel.  The cyclopeeze seems to be less wasteful when I defrost simply on plate.   Some foods can be put through strainer with water, but these items are so minuscule.

[speckledmind]

Good point on the juice

Ditto

[speckledmind]

I took some pictures to document my Cyano.

The following images show what I was referring to in an earlier post, the Cyano during the day being dark and very present, then during the night ( after they had been with out light for the night, and as soon as my lights came on this morning ) to show there decrease in coloration, and them depending on photosynthesis.

The Cyano is on the right hand side ( corner ) of my tank, sitting on the substrate and on some of the live rock, it's also present in the middle in one spot.

PS : Don't pay attention to the over all colors, my flash was on and it flooded everything.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[speckledmind]

As said.
I have just vacuumed the substrate where the Cyano was present, and did my normal 10% water change to help things out, so let's see what happens.

One more Pict to document things.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[RoxyDog]

my cyano is gone.  completely.  it's only been a few days mind you, but it's not back yet.  *crossing fingers*

[charlie]

my cyano is gone.  completely.  it's only been a few days mind you, but it's not back yet.  *crossing fingers*

Good to hear , can you post your sweet receipe so i can keep it for future reference 

[speckledmind]

my cyano is gone.  completely.  it's only been a few days mind you, but it's not back yet.  *crossing fingers*

Glad to hear your tank is on the up side again Roxy.
Show some Pict's.

Have you noticed anything different in your tank, I am making reference to the before and after the Cyano issue, anything looking different, or acting different ?

To all you guys who have been in the hobby for a while and have priors with this, is there anything else we should expect during / after this Cyano issue ?
Pros and cons ?
Will we see or find anything different in our tanks ?
Any backlashes to all of this ?

Any and all help would be appreciated.

[Julie]

Good to hear , can you post your sweet receipe so i can keep it for future reference 

Oh dear, a minute on the lips is forever on the hips. 
My tank has been running 2 years now.  I had big time cyano on the 20g after setting it up.
I didn't have cyano (that I can recall) when I moved.  I have cyano again.  Must be related to nutrients, the actinics wearing out would affect the coral.

[redbelly]

When I first setup my 29g I added over 40 lbs of lr, a 175 reeflux 12k for light, one pro 3 powerhead and a seaclone 150 for a skimmer. I added a clean up crew, corals and fish almost right away. I have a thread elsewhere where i showed how the seaclone 150 just didnt cut it for me. I got a small outbreak of cyano so I upgraded to a ccs 65 (this is where i did my skimmer comparison test on these 2 skimmers). I dosed with sugar and the cyano disapeard and hasnt come back ever since.

Cyano is a natural part of the cycle but when used with a decent skimmer a dont see the harm in a small dose of sugar to help your tank through that stage. Continual outbreaks on an established system are clearly an indication of something else being wrong which should be addressed however.

I should mention that the cyano has never returned since then.

[kennyman]

If I start to get slack with the water changes and go a month without 10% I will start to show red cyano in the corners and dead spots. It is the same things as Pat's skimmer point in that poor water quality can drive the stuff.

I notice it a bit faster now that I have only one powerhead in my tank. But I think that the powerhead and flowrate is once again a water quality issue. Lower flow means accumulation of poor water in deadspots and larger envelopes of stagnant water around objects. It also means less water passing by the LR which reduces the rocks efficiency. And flowrate is not just about gph of pumps, but how the pumps move water in the tank and the power of chaotic or oscillating flow vs narrow bands of liner flow. You want all the water in the tank moving about and no jets of flow. Outside of those narrow bands of a water jet there is very little actual movement.

That has been how I have kept cyano under control in my sumpless, poorly skimed tank anyway 

As for whats next? Id say managing algal growth like bubble, hair, briopsis and Coraline. Oh and stuff like flatworms that tend to creep up on you.

[sniggir]

gotta love flat worms!!!!!!!!!!! NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

[redbelly]

As for whats next? Id say manging algal growth like bubble, hair, briopsis and Coraline. Oh and stuff like flatworms that tend to creep up on you.

Bryopsis and flat worms are easy fixes but a real pain!

[speckledmind]

A little update on my Cyano problem.

I was running 3 Powerheads ( I had cut back two because I had to much flow ), but reverted to my initial set up of 5 Powerheads, one on each top corner of the tank, and an extra one at the back of the tank to pick up the dead water from the bottom back, and circulate it.

Here is what I have noticed so far :
- I have a lot of flow, yep, lots of it lol
- The Cyano is pretty much being blasted off the rock where is was holding on.
- I do have some substrate moving around, but no Cyano on it lol

I'm hoping that the Cyano won't simply move to another area.

First Pict shows my initial set up as it was planned, and before I removed the two front Powerheads, the second Pict shpws the two Powerheads back in place.
Flow I now have 

PS : I'm not sure if the Shrimps are holding onto the glass, or there being kept there by the increase flow 
Just kidding.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[speckledmind]

just saw Marinescape advertise the Sure Flow 1600 Maxi-Jet Upgrade Kit $21.99, it looks like the old MJ-Mod, but it's way simpler / cheaper ( Plug and Play would be more accurate ), so I'm thinking of picking one ( or two ) up after the week end, and giving those a try 

I got this off Google / The Sure Flow 1600 upgrade kits includes:
1 - Shroud cap
1 - Propeller/magnet assembly
1 - Full rotation bracket for Sure Grip magnet holder or suction cup bracket
Works with Maxi-Jet 400, 600, 900, and 1200 pumps.
Pump and Sure Grip magent holder not included.
The second / bottom Pict, shows what is included in the kit.

Pict's to boot.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Vallely4]

Is that an Aquaclear Skilter I see speckledmind?  If so do they work well?   (How much?)

Are those powerheads points in all one direction, no wait.... Its two you've got  pointed upwards, and the other two flowing counter clockward?  (looks like it creates good water agitation if so)

Love your rockwork anyway, beautiful purples...
Hope the cyano stays clear of it

[kennyman]

I like that aftermarket thing and I think it s very relevent this  cyano thread. It looks like it will really disperse the flow and that is the what I have been trying to get across with my comments about moving all the water around.

To get an idea about how much flow is in a diffuse pattern vs a jet it would take 7-8 MJ400's to get the flow rate out of a single seio820. The MJ's look like there is a lot of flow because of the nozzle but they actually don't move much water outside of that jetstream. I think it's Tunzi's site that has a great explanation of this, but with the way their site works I cant link to it directly anyway. But it was great read if I remember right.

I have a MJ400 here that was going to be used for a seahorse tank and I am very interested in this aftermarket piece Dennis posted to enhance its flowpattern. Thanks for the tip 

[speckledmind]

Is that an Aquaclear ...
Are those powerheads points in all one direction...

Hi Val,
I'm using an Aquaclear top skimmer attachment, hooked onto an Aquaclear 70.
My powerheads are not all pointed in the same direction, the Pict only shows where they sit when I did the dry fit of the equipment.
You can see all the details if you follow this link http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=17539.0

I like that aftermarket thing and I think it s very relevent this  cyano thread.

Yes it is, flow is a key factor in a reef tank, the big question I have been asking myself though, is how much flow does one really need, before it's to much flow ?
I'm not into keeping SPS, So !
Before this Cyano problem, I was doing very well 
I don't want to thread jack, but rather talk flow in thinking about the Cyano.
That being said.
I'm not convinced on the hydor koralia powerhead power / performance / bulkiness, I stuck my hand in front a the large model to check out the flow ( unit 4 I think is the largest ), and in my opinion ( and it's only an opinion ), it does not move that much water, and certainly not what it claims to, I do like the disperse affect though, so in thinking / reverting back to the MJ-Mods, I really want to see these new Sure Flow 1600 kits. I remember testing out an MJ-Mod for flow, and it pushed way more water in a dispersed pattern than the hydor koralia.

[Julie]

Need to tackle the source. 
Cyano isn't that bad, everyone has their algae problems, it's just ugly.

[RoxyDog]

yeah, the hydors...I dunno.  I bought a #2 and it still seems to not push what it says.  and I've not compared it to a MJ mod.  seems like it only moves water around 1/2 the tank, I know it's dispersed flow, but shouldn't 600gph in a 24gal do the whole tank?     my cyano is completely gone with the sugar dosing, we'll see if two AC PHs on one side and a hydor on the other keeps it @ bay.

[artw]

I had a bit of cyano the other day, I just removed it all with an airline tubing syphon..  we'll see if it comes back.
I started dosing calcium so we'll see what happens in that respect to the cyano.

[gvv]

Cyano isn't that bad, everyone has their algae problems, it's just ugly.

M-m-m... Don't agree. It can kill SPS'esif it will cover them. And not only SPS - I remember the time I had a problem when it started covering plate coral...
I can leave with it in sump/refuge, but not in the main tank.

Regards

[RoxyDog]

yep, it's back.    

just on the front sand bed, no where else on the sand or rocks.  the weird part is the zoas down there...you can see by their skirts that there's flow. even the cyano sways in the current.    

so, it appears there's flow, I use r/o water, the food I feed is NLS flake (could this be contributing via phosphates?) or raw shrimp about every second day. 

what to do now?  I can live with it, it's not that bad again, but I'd still like to conquer it if possible!  grr.

[kennyman]

there were some checkered Nerites at BA's last week. I got a couple for my tank to help out with the algae now that my Angel is gone. According to some Ecology type sites these guys live on a diet of specific types of algae including Cyano and diatoms.

[RoxyDog]

checkered nerites eh?  which BA?

[kennyman]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?pCatId=1472

I got the checkered ones at Innis. Every little bit helps   

I had some of these in my nano and they did good work, but the water quality was poor and I lost them and my emerald crab before I made the move to my existing tank.