"Sea Primates" Challenge

[HappyGuppy]

Just created this thread here for discussions based upon the idea of the challenge I suggested in a post in this thread:

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=42331.0

Here is the "challenge"

People have been enjoying their sea monkeys, sea dragons, sea monsters (whatever) and their "friends".  There is undeniably a certain magic of those ultra tiny tanks (what, like 2 cups worth?).  Seems to me that there is the possibility of working out something even cooler.  Consider this a challenge to all you salties out there (shout out?).  Could it be done, to create something in the scope of "sea monkeys", in a tiny tank - say a 1g fish bowl, that is even cooler using live rock, macro algaes, and other creatures that could happen to be found in a salt tank?  Something that could be kept on an office desk, with the help of just a desk lamp or a window (keeping with the Sea Monkey parameters).  Perhaps this challenge could be called the "OVAS Sea Primates Challenge" to avoid the TMed name.  Any interest in such a "challenge"?  Is it worth trying something new?  In a new direction, from bigger to tiny tanks?

I've decided to try this myself, as yet another fun challenge & experiment in my personal aquarium hobby.  I'll be posting my results here.

[mikerobart]

I will have more time to post more thoughts later... but I have one primary concern in a fish bowl: water movement. Even with basically no bioload, I don't like the idea of a tank without circulation for an extended period.  Now with just the sea critters you mentioned, may be ok. Definitely something to think about though. 

[HappyGuppy]

How about the solutions suggested by "Sea Monkeys"?  Give them a stir with a plastic spoon / straw, or bubble them, each day.  Think that might work?

[mikerobart]

Bubble seems like the best way to me to keep things oxygenated... especially if there would be other critters in there. Macro doesn't need flow necessarily but I think it certainly helps it with proper growth/gas exchange / in it's role as a nutrient sink.

[HappyGuppy]

Just a thought... in my fresh tanks I have no-tech other than lights (and heat if needed).  My fish provide all the mixing up of water they need.  My plants provide the O2.  It works (my experience & tanks proves it - even water tests).  Why wouldn't the same idea work with salt?  A plant or in this case a fast growing macro algae would work like a fast growing freshwater plant to soak up nutrients and produce O2.  Brine shrimp move fast enough to stir up the water, unlike the snails or I would speculate the star & other stuff.  I've kept many freshwater jars (you should see my basement windows) and believe me, this actually does work.  The more I think about it the more I imagine that it would have to work for salt too.  I simply can not see any reason why it wouldn't.  Besides, it does work for people who have Sea Monkeys / Dragons.  I think it is worth a try to see if an interesting desk tank/jar/bowl/vase could be created that is far superior to the popularly marketed version (can't we who have access to marine stuff make something better?).

I better get back to work...

[mikerobart]

Well what you're saying does make sense. I suppose in this small size the denitrification effect of live rock, which needs flow to happen efficiently (so I have read)  may not be needed anyways, as wc's can keep things in check. Or maybe in this specific system nitrate is not even an issue at all... certainly will help the macro.

I think it'd be really cool if you could drill out a small hole in the back of the glass container and silicone in a piece of airline hooked to a very small air pump.

For heating you might need to be creative to keep it looking nice. Most heaters are no so pretty but there are some specific mini ones.

[HappyGuppy]

For heating you might need to be creative to keep it looking nice. Most heaters are no so pretty but there are some specific mini ones.

Though I don't think it would be necessary to have a heater for one at all, here is a crazy idea that just occurred to me.  Someone prompted me to research how to make artificial live rock from cement recently... perhaps a small heater could be covered in a thin layer in such a way to appear to be live rock, and function like one.  Of course I never tried this, and have no idea how well that would work. 

However I return to the thought of "why bother"?  What in the tank would need heat, assuming you're in a room-temperature room?  Light, that yes, would certainly be a good thing to have (envisioning desk lamps of various kinds), but heat?  I'm not experienced with salt, so here my ignorance might be showing, thus please do enlighten me about what would require heat for such a setup.

[HappyGuppy]

Well what you're saying does make sense. I suppose in this small size the denitrification effect of live rock, which needs flow to happen efficiently (so I have read)  may not be needed anyways, as wc's can keep things in check. Or maybe in this specific system nitrate is not even an issue at all... certainly will help the macro.

I think it'd be really cool if you could drill out a small hole in the back of the glass container and silicone in a piece of airline hooked to a very small air pump.

Think simple.  Ponder over the simplicity of Sea Monkey tanks.  They never need water changes, just top up water due to evaporation  ( http://www.sea-monkey.com/html/customercare/faq_viewall.html ).  In my planted tanks I virtually never do water changes... though I take out plenty of green mater (plant clippings) which is how I remove nutrients from my Low/No-Tech Natural Planted Tanks (NPT).  Plants are the bio-filter for the water!  This is what Mother Nature does.  Early on in my dabling with NPTs I was sceptical, and had water tests done after months of no water changes.  Anyhow, I won't belabour that point.  The plants also oxygenate the water quite well. 

Though it would be cool to drill a hole to insert a tech device, but the point is to truly keep it simple.  KISS.  From what I read the chaeto would act like the other fast growers in freshwater (ie elodea, hornwort, etc), and those oxygenate enough if provided light.  Would't the chaeto fulfill the same function?

Hypothesis - the chaeto, given light, would clean the water and oxygenate it at the same time rendering other tech devices unnecessary in such a simple setup.

From my experience with freshwater equivalents I'm 99% certain that the above hypothesis should prove to be true.

[Rybren]

Would tanks such as these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XOsitYhihc count?  I've been tempted to give one a try ever since I saw this video.

The fellow who built these started a thread back in October on the other Ottawa-based forum.

They're a tad more involved than HappyGuppy's suggestion, but they are pretty cool.

[Rybren]

Here's a link to another one of his videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lhEeOCpao

[HappyGuppy]

Oops...  having walked away from my computer I was pondering the last post.  Sorry Mike, I didn't mean to come across as implying anything against your "drill a hole" idea.  It is certainly a cool idea, and if you are inspired to do so, then please do so.  I would love to see how that works out for you!

EDIT (to add):  Mike, after seeing those videos I see now how adding an air supply could actually work for those reefs.  Though for a fuge tank I still think it is optional, but for the reefs perhaps it is needed.

[HappyGuppy]

Holy WOW Ry!  Those links are really cool, and so are some of the others linked on the side. 

C'mon, who wouldn't think that those are amazing???

Yes, those certainly would qualify, though my original though was to do more of a fuge idea, as I simply had no idea that a reef could be done on such a small scale.  That video that panned over to a small box-like aquarium, looked to me like it was probably a huge tank, until you see the guy's hand, which blew me away.  Only half a gallon - no way!!!

Ok, so the "Sea Primates Challenge" can be a low end fuge, to a reef, done in say half gallon to a max of say 3.  Jars, vases, fish bowls, heck maybe even large wine bottles, are all fair game for this challenge.

[petri]

These links were amazing....

For what it worth, last year I left a little 500ml plastic container on a counter with some LR crumble for 3 months (was supposed to be short term at first...)  after a week or so,  I noticed some brine shrimp and decided to leave it and see.  After a while a tiny crab (.5 cm) come out of nowhere and the shrimp population kept getting bigger.  After a few weeks there as a lot of movement in there.

Hope I don't get in trouble for "experimenting"  with them...     
There as no light or heater (room temp approx 21C), no lid, no water movement etc.  The salinity was VERY unstable also because the water would evaporate (1-2cm) and I'd refill with brita (poor guys!). 
I don't know how longer they would've survived, guess I could call it an "accidental experiment" crab and shrimp all ended up in the fuge...    happy ending!

This can show that life finds a way to adapt and survive salt or fresh (to a certain extend!)...   Might not start dead and dry like the sea monkeys but I think this is comparable!

[HappyGuppy]

Thanks Petri.  I think that you've sort of validated the concept in that your little "experiment" is sort of what is being discussed here.  Too bad you didn't let it run for longer, but your 3 months is certainly encouraging in and of itself.  Hey, why not try to replicate your experiment and participate in our challenge, and try to make it something to enjoy looking at rather than a drab little plastic bottle.  I would love to see pics of your setup and hear your results over the months.
Good luck... again.

[HappyGuppy]

Small Water Making

I read somewhere that a cup of salt added to 5 gallons raises the sg by 0.005.  Thus I figure that to get ocean level of about 0.022 requires about 4.4 cups.  I did some math and tried to figure it out per liter, since we're making small batches of salt water (or you could steal some from your larger tank). 

So if figure that 11 to 11.5 teaspoons of salt per liter of conditioned tap water makes water hopefully within acceptable tolerances around 1.022.

Could anyone please confirm or correct these numbers?

(For my start I just mixed up 11 teaspoons from a measuring set per liter.  Roughly leveled, perhaps just slightly rounded, hence why I didn't add another half.  I should probably measure the sg, but I can't find my wine hydrometer.)

[petri]

I wasn't sure if it would count but if it does good!     

I'm away form home right now and have no access SW equipment...    When I get back (couple months) I'll look into doing something similar and actually try to make it look better.  It is interesting and the evolution happens pretty fast too!

I'll keep you posted!   

[Rybren]

HappyGuppy,

Are you using table salt or a marine salt mix?  I've used table salt for Brine Shrimp, but I wouldn't recommend it if you are planning to keep any "real" marine critters in there.  There's a lot more to salt water than plain old salt.  Much of the live stuff on your rock would likely be killed off if you use table salt.

You can pick up a bag of Instant Ocean salt mix for less than $20 and it will provide enough to produce ~50 gallons of good water.  Depending on the brand, 1/2 cup of mix will bring 1 us gallon of water to a 1.021 - 1.024 -ish level.

Again, if you were closer, I'd give you some mix.

[HappyGuppy]

Thank you again Ry, both for you thoughts and for your offers.  Yes, I am using marine salt purchased at a pet store.  I learned the importance of that from a previous thread.  Thanks for making sure that I wasn't doing a silly rookie mistake, which I might have made a short while ago

[HappyGuppy]

Hey folks, I got a question... on one of the little live rocks I picked up from BA's there is this little flesh ball-like thing on it.  It is definitely soft (poked at it gently) and doesn't seem to really do anything.  I have no idea what it could be. 

Could someone offer some suggested possibilities of what it *might* be based on this vague description, and that'll at least be a starting point for further googling.  Thanks.

[Severum]

Sounds like a sponge you got there.

[HappyGuppy]

Thank you.  After some googling it does appear to be some sort of sponge.  Thanks!