New Auction Format Comments

[Nelson]

I would like to provide my observations regarding last nights test drive of the new auction format.  

The benefits...a great format for speeding up the auction process, a good thing when we're running behind and we have several tables of items to sell.   Paying for your purchase immediately is a great timesaver and reduces the line-up at the end of the auction.  The speed of the process seems to result in much lower prices for items, thereby providing outstanding deals for bidders.

The disadvantages...in my opinion a poor format from the perspective of a vendor. The auctioneers carry out the bidding much too quickly which doesn't allow for a second or two for a perspective buyer to consider his bid.  If your arm isn't up immediately you can't join the bidding if you've reconsidered your participation, or raise your arm again if you wish to rejoin the bidding.  An additional downside to the speed advantage of this process is you don't get the most revenue possible for the auctioned item.  

I offered 23 individual hardware and livestock items last night and I suspect that the usual format may have attracted more bidding activity, which likely would have resulted in more revenue.  I'm aware that an auction is just that - an auction....a vendor gets what the bidders are willing to pay, but if the playing field appears to be too heavily in favor of the bidder, vendors may choose to find other means of turning over their items or attempt to protect themselves from heavier than usual losses by applying minimum amounts to their items.

These are my observations and I should point out that I buy far more than I sell, in fact last night was my first venture into sales.  I will end this by stating that should this format continue, and it appears it will, then I and other buyers will see many more exceptionaly good deals, assuming we continue to have the inventory to bid on.

[artw]

Nelson thank you for your comments they are appreciated.  We as an executive have debated this new format for many a long hour Monday nights at our meetings.   we are aware that the new format brings lower prices but for the sake of speed we are willing to make that sacrifice.   We hope that eventually the bidders will "get up to speed" so to speak,  and get into the swing.  In a way this new format forces the bidders to pay closer attention to the auction which is always a good thing.

From where I was sitting the auction last night was a great success - at the next exec meeting we will compare numbers and we will know for sure exactly if the items really did sell for less.

[Nelson]

Sooner or later everyone will likely get comfortable with the change.  (I wonder how many Liberals have made that statement behind closed doors :wink: )

[BigDaddy]

I'll voice in on my impressions.

1)  While I enjoyed the faster pace, I think it was a little TOO fast.  If the auctionier could slow down the count as he ups the bid, it would give buyers a bit more time to consider the bid.

2)  If an item that I didn't necessarily NEED is up for auction, and I don't put up my hand, if the bidding is VERY low, I'd like to be able to enter the bidding after bidding has begun.  Now, of course, if I put my hand down afterwards, I'd understand I can't put it back up again for the same item.

3)  I agree with the fact that the CLUB probably lost a bit of potential revenue with the new bidding.  I'm thinking of an auction a month or two ago where NO one was interested in bidding on some lilly pads (or something like that) and yet Greg was able to sell each of them for a buck.  Under the new format, they would have simply gone unsold.

I agree the old method was too slow.  But I think the new method is a bit too fast.  Somewhere in between would be just right.

That's my take... but I could be completely off....  :lol:

[dpatte]

To compensate for the fast pace of the auction, i believe that more could perhaps be done by the auctioneers to encourage people into the initial $1 bid.

Perhaps the auctioneers could spend more time describing the item for sale, or determining the species. On several occasions last night i saw fish put up for sale as 'african cichlids', with no other description - not even quantities in the bags.

It may also be wise for sellers to provide more information on their lots as well.

just my 2c worth

in any case, this is certainly a buyer's auction - and Im very pleased with what I acquired last night. Thanks everyone!

[pegasus]

I'm totaly behind Nelson on this one. I was to invite some Montreal vendors but not as I saw it last night. I know corrections will be made by the executive, they always did listen to our concerns (except the one I talk to last night for whom the vendors were not his consern). I'll post my comments later after work and a cold shower.

[BigDaddy]

...   we are aware that the new format brings lower prices but for the sake of speed we are willing to make that sacrifice...

I'm sure you guys have debated this point ad nauseum.  But if lower prices become the norm for the auction, then less items will show up at the auction as sellers try to get at least a few more bucks in private sale.  It just looks like it could become a vicious cycle.

What I did notice was that livestock definately sold for significantly less that at any auction this year.

[Nelson]

To compensate for the fast pace of the auction, i believe that more could perhaps be done by the auctioneers to encourage people into the initial $1 bid.

Perhaps the auctioneers could spend more time describing the item for sale, or determining the species. On several occasions last night i saw fish put up for sale as 'african cichlids', with no other description - not even quantities in the bags.

It may also be wise for sellers to provide more information on their lots as well.

just my 2c worth

in any case, this is certainly a buyer's auction - and Im very pleased with what I acquired last night. Thanks everyone!

Your welcome Dave

Incidently, I am the guilty person who offered unlabled fish for sale last night.  By way of explanation, I explained in a post I made yesterday...

"I've got just about my complete show tank of cichlids for sale tonight.  My big problem is that, as I've pointed out previously, I'm not an aquarist per se, strickly in it for the visual pleasure involved, so none of them will be presented with pedagree and most with no names at all!! Kind of a cichlid "pot-luck"![/quote]"

I was hoping I could impose on someone prior to the meeting to help me with identification, but I arrived too late.  Should I ever try the sales thing again I'll be sure to be better prepared. :lol:

[TBarb]

I'm glad to see that although there is some work to be done in regards to the auction that people had good feedback. Can only get better by:
1. slowing down the bidding
2. People pay attention to the biddings
3. Items are provided with some description (Not "foating plant" or "cichlids".
4. Sellers should put a minimum bid on their items. (Fair I think cause there were maybe too many good bargains??? But hey, maybe I shouldn't be complaining LOL)

It was my first time at a meeting and was very surprised on how cheap the fish went for. (I wish I was into cichlids - could of stocked a large aquarium for cheap last night!!). That said, I wish there were other types of fish available. Overall, I enjoyed the auction and bowl show. Good for the kids!

[Marc]

Wow... a lot of excellent comments.  Many of them I agree with.  Part of the reason for using this format last night was to get a rehearsal before the Giant Auction so we could identify and correct problems areas.


- I think the auctioneers should take a bit (but not too much) more time describing the item when it is first presented and then count up not too fast so people have time to think

- I don't mind people joining in the bidding a bit late but I wouldnt want to see hands poppping up at the last second either;  I'm not sure what the solution is

- as for the description of the items... that is totally up to the vendor, the auctioneer can only read what is on the label.  Some auctioneers take educated guesses but that in itself is risky too.  What if he guesses wrong?  Imagine me auctionnning off un-labelled Malawi cichlids:  here is a blue cichlid, this one's red...

- minimum bids are totally up to the vendor;  if it turns out the minimum bid was too high the item won't sell.

[artw]

just a quick note to indicate I'll be printing out this thread and bringing it to the next Executive mtg in 2 weeks

please lets hear more comments...

[BigDaddy]

That said, I wish there were other types of fish available. Overall, I enjoyed the auction and bowl show. Good for the kids!

Don't we all TBarb!

It's not a common sight to see a non-African up for auction.  I've seen plecos routinely available, and some livebearers and brevis... but other than that its been cichlids.

[Greg]

Wow, good chat here.

The number one thing that I think will help sellers under this new selling method is better labels and descriptions.  Especially at the big events where the volunteers are under time pressure and can start to get tired.

Second, counting should/will be slower.  If I was a little fast sorry, I am used to repeating numbers 3 to 4 times before I move on, so it is always very clear.  If I am at the front again I shall remember this point.  

Greg

[pegasus]

First a small correction: brevis are african cichlids.

I agree with all the replies so far. What we didn't like from Montreal's auction is the non-access to the tables during the auction, this as been resolve favorably  for the OVAS's auction.

For the sake of discussion see what you think of these:

1-Tables should be arranged in categories (Africans - Other cichlids - Other than cichlids - plants - equipment) For two purposes: one for viewing, we never had the chance to see all the tables in Montreal. I want africans, so I visit all the african tables and talk with buyers interested in africans. Secondly, the tables are auctioned as such, therefore my interest. I'll take a break when plants come up. Oops a third... the auctioner could be chosen for his expertise. Our dear friend Ron knows how to pronounce all those latin plant names and their requirements but can't barely say "Pseudotropheus" or where they come from. Sorry Ron.. know that I love you anyway. So Ron could also take a break and Jody could take over(let see Art do it too    ) for the Africans.

2-The lifting of the hand (card with your buyer's#) should be allowed until the bid reaches let's say $5.

3-Anyone here could find us an electronic panel or one of those white blackboard were the lot# auctioned and the one coming up could be displayed in front of the audience! I had a hard time in Montreal with this.

4-This one will probably not be accepted by all.
Vendors from outside the Outaouais Valley would get a 10% incentive to come down. They bring in fish that we can't find here like a good selection of Apisto, killies, Tanganykans and even Tropheus.

[BigDaddy]

First a small correction: brevis are african cichlids.

Yeah, my bad.  But I don't put shell dwellers, kribs and jewels in the same bucket with the other africans   :lol:

[mseguin]

It was my first auction so I don't have much to compare to, but there are a few points that have been addressed that I agree with.
1) The pace was just a bit fast in some cases. I understand that you want speed, but I think the speed at which numbers were called out was sometimes too quick.
2) Categorization of the tables. The only downside I can see to this is everybody overcrowding one or two tables in an effort to see the African table (or whatever categories are chosen). But it would definitely help to have stuff a bit more organized.
3) Raising your hand too late? I agree that it would be helpful to be allowed to raise your hand when the bidding is still low, but its not a huge deal IMO. If I was only somewhat interested in soemthing, I raised my hand, then if I saw many people had theirs up to droppped around 2 or 3 dollars.

Overall, it was an interesting experience, and thanks to everyone who brought stuff to sell, I got some great deals. I look forward to doing it again, and maybe bringing some fish in myself.

Matt

[pegasus]

Yeah, my bad.  But I don't put shell dwellers, kribs and jewels in the same bucket with the other africans   :lol:

I'm not gonna debate on the subject. You are difinitly bad! *snicker* as artw would add.
If next meeting is as short as last night, we should go for a beer or coffee after. I know who you are... hihi
So what do you think of my other suggestions?

[dpatte]

hands should be allowed to be raised at anytime (some aquarists are slow off the mark )

Last hand up always wins

[fishycanuck]

What is the rationale for not joining the bidding late, so to speak?

[CarlClassen]

I wasn't at last nights auction (missed out on good deals I see) so I can't comment too much but I have been to previous auctions. I found that the auctions went slow sometimes because people were going into too much detail for each lot. That's what the preview is for. To look at what your buying. The auctioneer should just read the label and that's it. Its up to the seller to properly label a lot. If they haven't labeled it they should just be sold as "fish" and of course get less money for the lot. Its really the sellers fault.

Also I found the auctions could be slow because there was no standard starting bid so time was wasted trying to figure that out. All lots should start at the minimum bid(which is on the label) or start at $1. Once again it is the sellers responsibility to correctly label the lot.

As for low prices I'm wondering if its partially supply and demand. It seems that a lot of people are selling cichlids. Seems like a high supply but not high demand. Maybe once when people were getting into cichlids prices were higher since everyone was trying to buy them. But now everyone's breeding them

Sounds strange that you can't bid if you don't show initial interest! That's how the sellers can make real money! Gets the bidding going What was wrong with a quick, "going once, going twice, SOLD!"

Just my two cents

[pegasus]

What is the rationale for not joining the bidding late, so to speak?

It's more for the auctioneer, ounce hands are up and those are the ones they will be looking for. They hate to give the lot to someone and have it contest by someone who got is hand up late or behind their back.
But auction are for the benefit of the organization and the sellers, and they seem to forget this. The comment I got last night was like " thank you for your fish, we are making enough money from all the sellers, we don't need to try to get more! ".

[BigDaddy]

Yeah... its good that the club gets some funds, and it is a service to the sellers to be able to bring their goods in front of a larger audience.  But by the same token, there has to be a balance between keeping a good pace and ensuring the seller gets as good a price as time allows.

[pegasus]

My beef has nothing to do with speed but more on respect for the sellers and the buyers. In Montreal we were to mark the lot# we wanted to buy. There were 18 tables to view, a room packed and only an hour to do so. During the auction, the lot# was only important for the cashiers, we had problem knowing exactly what was for sale. When I heard FRONTOSA I bid, would I've known the lot#, I would have wait for the other bag instead of bidding on the worst one there. How do you think I wound-up with an Acara?
As a buyer, I've miss bidding on about 20% of what I would normally bid on because I could not see what was on for auction or I was to slow to put up my hand. The end result is 20% less audience for 10% more commission. On a seller point of view big auction means more buyers, more sellers and same selling price. That's why I paid $2 for a mature tropheus, $8 for my Frontosa and sold my famous pair & holding C44 for $1

[artw]

I think we'll put the kiebosh on the sorting of tables idea right now...   the way we did it last year works well.   Sellers put the bags wherever they want,  and we draw tables randomly.

The electronic sign idea (etc.) is a very good one but it brings up another point -  We will need an additional volunteer to "man" this unit.   Recorders cant do it, cashiers cant do it, auctioneers, lol, can't do it

keep the comments coming... we're listening

[pegasus]

We will need an additional volunteer to "man" this unit
I should really take care of my own pet-pee; I will certainly help in that regard. It should also help Marc registering the sales.

Ok ...    Got the easel, the white blackboard and a front seat at the auction.

[TBarb]

3 iIdeas came to me while I was sleeping....

1. If (big if) we can get our hands on a projector and hook it up to someones camera. This would allow the items to be easily seen projected on wall. (this is a more of a "nice to have" than anything)

2. If the items were either a) prelisted on an auction list with all the details, then you can circle the items you are interested in and be ready for them when they come up for bidding OR
b) have a blank list for buyers to write down the lot number/item
This would depend upon the seller to write down (legibly) the item, description, lot number.

3. Auctioneer begins bidding by shouting "Hands UP for lot XXX - item name". When auctioneer sees the hands after say 5-10 seconds bidding begins.

I like the new format overall though, you can get through a lot. But this is dependant upon buyers who are awake!

[Marc]

If the items were either a) prelisted on an auction list with all the details, then you can circle the items you are interested in and be ready for them when they come up for bidding

At the Giant Auction it's a good idea but OVAS itself doesn't have an auction list until at least 1:00pm.  We dont know what will be for sell until the vendors have arrived, registered, and their information has been entered into the computer.  Then, we would need to go out somewhere and get some 150 photocopies made of the list....

At the mini-auctions, it's the same problem...

OR  have a blank list for buyers to write down the lot number/item

At the Giant Auction there is space on the inside of the bidder number meant especially for this.

At the mini-auctions you need to bring your own pen and paper to make your list when you preview the items.

This would depend upon the seller to write down (legibly) the item, description, lot number.

At the Giant Auction the items labels are computer printed but space is limited and the data entry person (usually me) can only type in what the vendor has written.  I don't have time to check that the information is accurate or to go ask the vendor what type of cichlid it is.  The vendor himself stands to lose the most by providing incorrect or incomplete information.

At the mini-auctions buyers have to read the vendors hand-written label themselves....  This really is the responsibility of the vendor, not the club...


Marc

[Marc]

Auctioneer begins bidding by shouting "Hands UP for lot XXX - item name". When auctioneer sees the hands after say 5-10 seconds bidding begins.

I completely agree.

[Greg]

My plan was to make my previous comment and then quietly observe rather than seem too vocal.

But there is one thing that may well get the volunteers in hot water, so a quick comment on late bidding.

I love late bidders and as a buyer I like bidding late however, using this new method there are a few reasons why it is unrealistic to expect the volunteers to pick-up on late bids at the big auction.

1. This method requires the volunteers to watch the current bidders to see who drops out, not focus on finding new bidders.

2. When counting the volunteer has nothing to do to "buy-time" to look for more bidders, there is no auction chant of numbers and words to take a few seconds to look for that new bidder or get more from an existing bidder.  It is only 4..5..sold  

Point: If the method is likely going to cause volunteers to miss late bids some sellers and buyers will just be annoyed and not come back, but some will be yelling and screaming.  

Therefore, you might as well warn them at the start, BID LATE AT YOUR OWN RISK.  This way most people will bid at the start.  Then the odd bozo like me, who will jump in if they missed the start or if it is cheaper than expected may join, but they have been warned that the auction staff may well miss the bid.  

I will be volunteering but I am not likely going to be at the front, but I have respect for those who will be and really don't want to see volunteers put in a bind.

[pegasus]

Marc, are we gonna have advance registering for the sellers. If so, a list of those lot# and descriptions could be available.

Greg, thank you, I'm not sure why they had that rule of hand-up at the start of bidding, but it was very annoying.

[Marc]

Marc, are we gonna have advance registering for the sellers. If so, a list of those lot# and descriptions could be available.

As usual advance registration for the Giant Auction is encouraged.  Email me your list of items before noon on March 5 and I will have your labels waiting for you when your arrive on auction day.  If you need more labels on auction day, no problem. Similarly if you have a few labels you don't need just return them to me and I'll delete them from the lot inventory.

If you do email me your list make sure to bring a copy of your list to the auction in case I dont receive your email.

my email id:   or  

I don't think I want to get into producing and distributing a partial list of the lots.

Thanks everyone for your comments and ideas.

Marc

[dannypd]

I am new to this site, and I am NOT a member (I dont have time, well, for the physical part) and I am a full time student.

However, a good way to produce a list of items is a webpage/rss type feed.  Personally, I do NOT like RSS feeds, but I'm sure a simple webpage could be generated by a CGI script.  All the moderator would have to do is message the "server" with some generic commands: "Add:  name of chiclid here"  "Remove:  name of chiclid here", etc.  "Modify: name of...".

In reality (for the programmer (if any??) here), it would parse and process strings as such:
"A-I-#####-D"  where "A" is the command Add, I is the item # (faster processing the tables in an SQL database), and D is the description.  Something like this can listen in on a hidden webpage or accept e-mails at a private address.  (authenticating by IP# or alias of somesort).

[Marc]

When the Giant Auction takes place we are in a room at the Jack Purcell Community centre where neither the OVAS executives nor the bidders or vendors have access to the internet.  (except of course for the lucky few who have wireless access)

[dannypd]

I dont mean from the ACTUAL auction date, I meant prior to the bigging, prior to the meeting...and yes, I have wireless *chuckles*, but personally, my computer and fish dont exactly get along...

For example, I say, I have a puffer for sale (not really) and lets say you're the 'admin', you send a message (somehow) to the cgi-TYPE script (perl, bash, whatever...) like this:  AI0001DPuffer fish...

Now on the "webpage" thats public, you see:
Item# 0001
Desc:
Puffer fish.

If you remove it, same process:
RI0001, and it simply "disapeers".   I'd suggest using a cummulative counter, so it wouldn't "recycle" used numbers.  An interget (in c, or c++) can store quite a bit...and unsigned int would be fine for our usage.

Sorry if this is too technical, I'm just trying to help as best I can...I know fish keeping is EXPENSIVE, and most people truly passionate about this ain't too rich either

Because, if you ARE rich, you PAY someone to take care of your fishies (eg:  US...)

[pegasus]

Only pre-registered items would make the list, as in Montreal. If the list can't be produce by whaterver software you are using, then yes that would be way to much work to re-write.
Think how nice it could be if the audience knew in advance which are the two next items comming up ( using the blackboard).

[artw]

Michele, we appreciate your volunteer effort.

The projector idea is noted, and will be discussed, however we have hard enough time getting ahold of a decent sound system, let alone a video system

in Montreal they write the next 5 items up for auction on a whiteboard. Apperently, Michele will be doing this, for us this year

[pegasus]

Michele, we appreciate your volunteer effort.

My mother never agreed to this.

Michel