Plant Maintenance Advice

[darkdep]

Rather than jack a similar thread, I'll start a new one.

In my 90gal I have Amazon Swords, Giant Hygro, and Red Hygro.  It's a 24" tall tank, but has 192watts of T8 Fluorescent lighting.  Substrate is a mix of black sand and very fine black gravel (Geosystems stuff).

I'd like to make these plants fluorish.  I've managed to keep plants alive in my other tanks but nothing is truly blowing my mind.  I do not really know how to take care of plants properly.  I've made the effort to at least get the light situation correct on this tank, now I'm hoping to get some advice to handle the rest.  

I'm a complete n0rb when it comes to ferts, please help!

[kennyman]

I'm an aquarium plant noob too, but my land plant self says you might want to mix in somthing like  Eco-complete into the substrate. I think some of those plants will benifit form a substrate that has some cation extange capacity.

[darkdep]

...cation exchange capacity...yeah...ok...feel free to tell me what that is.

[BigDaddy]

CEC is a substrates ability to retain nutrients for later plant use.

Flourite has a very high CEC value.  Kitty litter (don't laugh, people use it) does not.

Simply put, unless you have HUGE light (which you don't) then I recommend the bottled liquid ferts at recommended dosages.  Excel is a nice CO2 substitute, but in a 90 gallon, would be very costly.

Your sword plants are root feeders.  I can't hurt to put a root tab under them.  The nice thing about root tabs is that you can't "over fert" and get nutrients leeching into the water column.  Algae doesn't have roots, so only the swords will benefit from them.

Your stem plants will do fine on a regular routine of a liquid fert like Flourish or Kent products...

Hope this helps.

[kennyman]

its the abillity of a substrate to collect and then exchange cations with the plant. Cations are + charged elements that the plant will want to absorb. As for how much role the substrate plays in the supply of cations (nutrients) vs the water itself to varrius types of plants. Im in over my head for that one . . lol over my head . . . its a water joke. I crack me up sometimes.

oops I was posting this at the same time a BD. Its kind of redundant now but I leave it up for the phunny joke  

[repeej]

The question is....how long before those cichlids turn your nicely planted tank into a salad.

On a serious note, i'm interested in this also since my community tank plants aren't doing so well lately.

[darkdep]

repeej: I've found that as long as you pay attention to where they want to dig (generally around / under the rocks), and plant the plants elsewhere, they do fine.  I don't mind them nibbling on the plants, as it is what they would do in the wild.  I have to replant the occasional small plant, but once they're established they aren't a problem.  They mostly dig them up "by accident" while digging for bits of food or nest-building.

You have to accept this behaviour with Africans, or you just can't have plants

[darkdep]

What kind of "root tabs" would you recommend for swords, BD?

Also, will this routine give me acceptable results even without CO2?  (Not that I'm against CO2 in any way, just need to read more about that first?)

[repeej]

Well good cause I added my first africans to the 55g last night and as luck has it.....it's got plants in it also.

[darkdep]

It's like working with your water...don't fight them with the plant thing, work with them

[gvv]

The problem is not in digging out the plants (but eventually you will not be able to regulate this untill yuo put some heavy stones around the plants), but this is perfct salad-bar for rift lake cichlids.
I know one thing - my africans ate every plant I put into tank, even anubias and val. And hygro is perfect, as it has very delicious leaves...
Only sword survived (!), but they regularly cut the new fresh leaves from it.

[Mettle]

They ate anubias? That's just wacky!

[kennyman]

My vallis is really really short, But there is about 20 young plants in there from the original 6 I started with six months ago. I think it might be the low fish poulation of my tank that is allowing algea and plants to survive. My fish pick off the substrate all day but they dont seem to dig much except under rocks.

A note if interest is my P.elongatus are labled  "herbivores" as opposed to omnivores like most of them.

[gvv]

kennyman, you are right! Sorry, had to specify: mbuna. Peacocks are not interested in plants

[darkdep]

So far my mbuna haven't done more than very occasionally nibble on the val and hygro...but you know what?  I don't mind.  The plants are part of their environment and they can nibble if they want.

[gvv]

The plants are part of their environment and they can nibble if they want.

This is really interesting question: what plants are native and part of the Malawi/Tang/Victoria environment? Any ideas?

Regards

[darkdep]

I know Val is native to Malawi; dunno what else.

[darkdep]

A question about CO2...I'm thinking of trying a little CO2 in the tank to experiment.  I was just going to go cheap with a DIY job, and I notice that Big Als sells these little CO2 kits that seem to work on the same fermentation principle and are fairly cheap ($39).

Just wondering if there is any actual advantage to a unit such as this over say, a DIY pop-bottle approach?

[Flawed_Artist]

I've had really good luck with plants. I've read a lot on them (I own a few aquatic plant books, too), and almost every tank I've had gravel in, I've kept plants. So, this being something that I've both read and experienced, I believe this;

Mbuna are more likely to be OK with plants if they're introduced after the plants are, if they're full (especially if their flakes/pellets/frozen has a high veg. content), and if they're not getting a good taste of something like lettuce, to ween them onto it.

Bog plants, Draconia, Trapa, Vallisneria, Anubias, Microsorium and Java moss, as well as even the Madagascar Lace (trust me, I've tried it with two species of Mbuna to win an argument) have worked for me. Apparently, water sprite has a bad taste, as well as a few other types of plants. I've seen hornwort take some bad damage, too.

As for darkdep's question, for swords, I've had good luck heating the substrate just a few degrees, below the base of the sword, and adding a substrate fertilizer. Even with the fert., the heating worked wonders. I highly recommend it - it was a tip I picked up from a Baensch Atlas 'Bible.'

Edit - To clarify, I used a ballast (that hooked into striplights) to heat the substrate.

[Flawed_Artist]

What about a DIY CO2, but with one of the bubble counter ladders to lengthen the time that the CO2's in the water?

[darkdep]

Heating the substrate?  How do you do that?  Some kind of heating cable?

[darkdep]

FA:  That's what I was originally thinking...I understand the production parameters, and understand it needs to dissolve (and simply liked the looks of those little ladders)...but I wonder if that's all you need to worry about?

[Flawed_Artist]

I edited a post or two above. Basically, with a lighting ballast, but I once had 16 tanks running, so I used those tubular steel stands that could fit a tank on the bottom of the stand. With that, I just kept as much electrical as possible near the bottom of the substrate of the tank above. It only heated it a little, but I swear, best growth I've ever seen. I was using an NPK fert, iron and micronutrient ferts, substrate ferts, CO2, and I was also dosing with a bit of baking soda for good measure. This was the deciding factor, without a doubt. I guess it sped up metabolism? I don't know. It worked.

[Flawed_Artist]

My understanding is that the most overlooked issue with CO2 is stabilizing the pH in the canister. The chemical reaction that the yeast puts out drops pH quickly; baking soda helps to stabilize this. Otherwise, I believe that the temperature has to be lukewarm, and that's about it. I used a ten gallon powerhead, on a weird angle, aimed at my bubble counter ladder, to disperse the CO2 more, as it dissolved from the ladder's bubbles.

(Wow, that was a painful paragraph.)

[kennyman]

Once you get the fert regeme going you can check your co2 durring peek growing hours to see if it has become the limiting factor to growth. Then decide if you need co2. But right now your nurtient levels will be what holds your plants back.

[darkdep]

Thanks for the help everyone.  I'll get some ferts going and keep reading about CO2.

At this point, I have no idea how I'd put CO2 in the water and maintain a high pH for the Africans...

[BigDaddy]

If you want to do the CO2 route... buy the ladder for $15 bucks and you can make your own generator with yeast and sugar and a 2 litre pop bottle.

Google it... there are plenty of designs out there.  No point in you spending $20 plus dollars on a pretty can that can be replaced with a 2 dollar bottle of pop.

[darkdep]

Ok, that's what I wanted to know...if the pretty can had some advantage over the pop (which has a bonus, I get to drink it).

[Toss]

It is just prettier and cost you more money. I use 1.5L bottle from water. It is stronger and smaller.

[darkdep]

Now, with a DIY Co2 setup, do you need to worry about how fast the Co2 is produced?

[kennyman]

As for the PH crashing from CO2, you need to understand buffering capacity to know about how that happens. And when you get it figgured out, can you explain it to me cause I don't get it :/

[BigDaddy]

If you follow the standard receipes on the Net, then you shouldn't have issues.

As far as pH crashes go... here's the deal

Alkalinity (commonly referred to as kH) is a measurement of a volume of water's ability to resist pH change.   Simply put, the reason why soft water is easy to make hard and hard water is not so easy to make soft is simple; soft water has little to no alkalinity, hard water is full of it.

Alkalinity acts as a buffer (another term you'll here).  The higher the value, the bigger the buffer you have (the water's ability to resist pH changes).

When you inject CO2, you will be lowering the pH of the tank water.  The "potential" danger in this is that if you have very low alkalinity (less than 3 degrees of kH), you don't have a great deal of buffer, and you could experience a pH crash (where the pH drops dramatically, well beyond what the CO2 alone would do).

Now, I say potential in quotes, because I have been running an injected CO2 tank for the better part of 2 years and never had a crash.  All the while maintaining between .5 and 1.5 degrees of kH.

So, that's pH crashes in a nut shell.

Now... CO2 levels in the tank.  It is recommended that you do not exceed 30ppm of CO2 in a tank with fish.  It has been noted that fish exposed to those levels of CO2 will suffer, either in the short term by being lathargic, or "gasping" at the surface, or in the long term by compromising gill function.

Again, I've not experienced this myself.  I have run my tank with SAEs (which are very sensitive to oxygen deprivation) at 45ppm and never seen them up at the surface.  Of course, I might be the exception to the rule... but I can only go with my personal experience.

With a large tank, and a single bottle of DIY, unless your receipe was WAY off, it's unlikely you'll get those levels of CO2 anyway.

PS - The Hagen ladder is only rated for 20 gallons or less.  Anything more than that, and a DIY reactor is the way to go.

Hope this helps.

[Flawed_Artist]

What I have seen one person do is use T-valves - they're cheap and work well - to branch the CO2 tubing off, so you can run more than one ladder at a time. That way, the Hagen 20G ladder can still work. I'll check, too, but I thought that the CO2 canister from Hagen was the only one that was for 20 gallons or less - I got into an argument my  friend who branched his CO2 tubing off, because I didn't think that the principle that the ladder runs by would fail past 20 gallons, or change - the CO2 would always dissolve by the same means, and the more bubbles per second on it, the more absorption. Hagen set the 20 gallon value based on the CO2 output from their canister, I thought.

. . . I don't know what to think of this, either, but this was written in the Baensch Aquarium Atlas Vol. 1 - "At a pH value exceeding 8 the amount to dissolve carbon dioxide is negligible (after GESSNER)." (p. 32) It goes on to explain that ". . . the OH- ions are immediately fixed by CO2 and bicarbonate is formed." It basically expresses that CO2 seems to not have much effect past 8-10 pH.

Please, if anyone has contradictory info to any of it, teach me . . .

[darkdep]

Ok, all this info is great (and being absorbed, I promise!).  Ok, so I think I'm comfortable enough trying to build a generator and figure out the reactor deal (although I still like the look of that ladder, hehe).

I read a chart on a site that had a relationship between CO2, kH, and pH.  It confused me a bit...

I understand that kH acts as a pH buffer.  I am comfortable with that, as I have been adding epsom salt and baking soda to my tank water for a while now, and it has been keeping the pH and kH high (last I checked, which was a while ago, on one of my 30gals it was 8.0ph and 7kh...but I haven't measured my 90yet).

I also understand that CO2 lowers pH.  But, if your kH is high enough, will this still occur?  Or will the buffer absorb it?  I have read that 15ppm is the most "efficient" amount of Co2 to have going for plant growth, so that was what I was thinking of aiming for.  

I guess my desire is to have Co2, but keep my pH high.  Can I counteract the pH drop from the Co2 with more baking soda/epsom salt?  Will this have a detrimental effect on the co2?

[Flawed_Artist]

Without going into the chemistry, with 8 pH and 7dkH, you're ok, as long as you use that chart to monitor the amount of CO2 - I agree with BD - 30 ppm or higher, *usually*, fish don't do so well.

There's a triangular relationship between CO2, kH and pH. Higher CO2 levels lower pH, but your kH level is enough to buffer for a long time - probably about a month without water changing, at least, before a crash comes.

[darkdep]

Here's the chart I found:

The relationship of CO2 , pH and KH

Code Select Expand


-----------------------------------------------------------------------  
\  pH | 6.0     6.2     6.4     6.6     6.8    7.0    7.2    7.4    8.0  
KH\   | -----------------------------------------------------------------
0.5   | 15      9.3     5.9     3.7     2.4    1.5    0.9    0.6    0.2  
1.0   | 30      19      12      7       5      3      1.9    1.2    0.3  
1.5   | 44      28      18      11      7      4      2.8    1.8    0.4  
2.0   | 59      37      24      15      9      6      4      2.4    0.6  
2.5   | 73      46      30      19      12     7      5      3      0.7  
3.0   | 87      56      35      22      14     9      6      4      0.9  
3.5   | 103     65      41      26      16     10     7      4      1.0  
4.0   | 118     75      47      30      19     12     6      5      1.2  
5.0   | 147     93      59      37      23     15     9      6      1.5  
6.0   | 177     112     71      45      28     18     11     7      1.8  
8.0   | 240     149     94      59      37     24     15     9      2.4  
10    | 300     186     118     74      47     30     19     12     3  
15    | 440     280     176     111     70     44     28     18     4  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
     |                 CO2  milligrams/liter -------------------------
---------------------------------------------- -------------------------

According to this, ph 8 and kh 6 is...1.8.  1.8 ppm, Co2?  Can someone explain this to me?

[BigDaddy]

Here's the scoop.

Your kH doesn't change... well not without adding baking soda anyway.

So, right now your tank is 6 kH.  In order to get to a meaningful CO2 level (above 15ppm), your going to need to see your pH drop to 6.8 or 7.

If you inject CO2, and your pH doesn't hit 7, then you either aren't adding enough, or its outgasing, keeping you from reaching "optimal" CO2 levels.

[kennyman]

If your stocked with hard water adapted plants do you still need to be concerned with higher co2 levels? Or can you rely on the plants specialzed abillities to obtain Carbon through the breakdown of compounds?

[darkdep]

BD, ok, that makes sense.  So, just so I understand the chart, another way to do it would be to increase kH, correct?  (i.e a higher kh would also allow meaningful levels of Co2?)

[BigDaddy]

No... adding kH does not increase CO2.  That's a common misconception.

When you add kH, pH goes up.  So the CO2 value remains the same.

6 kH 7 pH -18 ppm CO2

up the kH to 7

7 kH 7.1 pH - 19ppm

Adding the extra baking soda will make the pH go up - but the CO2 value remains a constant.

The only way to increase CO2 levels is to dissolve more CO2 into the water.


PS - Don't bother with the double or triple ladders.  A powerhead/gravel vac DIY reactor will cost you much less, and be a MUCH more effecient setup than the ladders ever could be.  Reactors will always be better than diffusers (which is what the ladder is)

[darkdep]

Thanks so much BD.  I think I'm getting it now.  And I'll look into a reactor for sure.

[Toss]

If you running Eheim, hook it up to the intake. It works fine with mine. If it 404, some ppl said that it makes some noise. You need to try to see it. This way the bubbles stays longer in the water and on the way out, it got diffused by the impeller and become CO2 mist.

[BigDaddy]

If you running Eheim, hook it up to the intake. It works fine with mine. If it 404, some ppl said that it makes some noise. You need to try to see it. This way the bubbles stays longer in the water and on the way out, it got diffused by the impeller and become CO2 mist.

Not really recommended, as the CO2 can build in the canister and cause an air lock.

Now, if you have a Magnum 350, your okay, because the impellor is on the bottom of the filter, not the top.

[darkdep]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of putting the CO2 into the intake of my canisters.  I like em quiet.

[darkdep]

Ok, so I've got some specific questions now...

I've picked up some Seachem Flourish and some Flourish Tabs.  I've placed about 5 of the tabs in my 90gal, according to the box they are effective around a 6" radius, so I sort of followed that to cover the Amazon Swords, as well as some of the Hygro.  I also put in a dose of Flourish liquid and will follow the directions on the bottle (1.5 capfuls per week).

Is this a good fertilization routine?

Also, for my plant education purposes, I'm trying to figure out the issues for different plant symptoms...for example:

- On Red Hygro, leaves turning brown and falling off
- On Amazon Sword (diff tank), leaves are yellow and some are see-through
- On Val, (again, diff tank) plant is very thin (few leaves) and they break easily, and are yellow/brown...

Will the Seachem products help for these symptoms or is there something else to consider?

[kennyman]

I guess  Estimative Indexing (EI) would be a real pain in the butt for a 90g cichlid tank :p

[darkdep]

OMG What the heck is that!? :lol:

[DonCorleone]

Not sure if I'm allowed to do this... Mods, feel free to remove this post if you feel it is advertising another forum.

Estimative Index

[Marc]

Mods, feel free to remove this post if you feel it is advertising another forum.

Links to other websites and to other forums are permitted.

[BigDaddy]

Also, for my plant education purposes, I'm trying to figure out the issues for different plant symptoms...for example:

- On Red Hygro, leaves turning brown and falling off
- On Amazon Sword (diff tank), leaves are yellow and some are see-through
- On Val, (again, diff tank) plant is very thin (few leaves) and they break easily, and are yellow/brown...

Will the Seachem products help for these symptoms or is there something else to consider?

Depends.

Are these new leaves or old leaves suffering?  Some nutrients are "transportable"... the plant can re-route nutrients from older leaves to help sustain newer ones (which should be closer to a light source and better able to photosynthesize).

For example, if old leaves which were green and then turn yellow... that's a nitrogen deffeciency (usually).  If the leaves grow in yellow, then its an iron deffeciency (again, most of the time).

If you have root tabs near your amazon and vals... you should see them pick up over the coming days.

[Toss]

If you running Eheim, hook it up to the intake. It works fine with mine. If it 404, some ppl said that it makes some noise. You need to try to see it. This way the bubbles stays longer in the water and on the way out, it got diffused by the impeller and become CO2 mist.

Not really recommended, as the CO2 can build in the canister and cause an air lock.

Now, if you have a Magnum 350, your okay, because the impellor is on the bottom of the filter, not the top.

True for most standard filter media setup. I found a way so it won't create an air-lock. For noise, depends on the bubble-count and brand of filter, for mine, you can't hear a thing.
Note: don't just take my word for it. I don't want to ruin someone's filter. Every aquarium setup is unique, works on one and fail on the other. Experiment it and see if it works on yours.

[darkdep]

These are old leaves.  The Red hygro is failing fast...old leaves are turning brown and wilting very quickly, and are falling off.  The Swords are having some leaves (again, old) slowly turn brown, but nowhere near as dramatically as the red hygro.  Although, interestingly enough, I have two batches of sword in there...one batch I got from SP merivale, and another I got from SP Kanata.  The stuff from SP Kanata was much furthur along (great roots, etc) and it is doing better.

I seem to have one particular plant (a Giant Hygro) that actually seems to be growing...only diff there is it is directly in a current from a temporary spraybar.