Thinking about cichlids in Ottawa, but what???

[Nene]

Hi all,
I am starting to think about a new setup here in Ottawa (I came last August from Italy) and I'm struggling between 2 options

1) stick to my beloved Tanganyikans. I know them well and they are my true love. I would need to use salts though (I never did back home as I had hard and alcaline water from the tap). I met Jody at Big Al last week and was relieved to know that many do keep rift valley cichlids here. Do you have a recipe that is known to work for Ottawa water? I know about the DYI mix of baking soda, epsom and NaCl but was wondering about how much would I need to start with (will likely have a 65 gal tank) and at each water change. I don't want to have unstable water conditions for my beloved Xenos and ectodines (they can be pretty sensitive to water chemistry)

2) given the soft and almost ph-neutral water of sandy hill I might take the chance of trying some west-african or south american biotope. But what?! I know almost 0 about these fish. I do like nanochromis, pelvicachromis, apistos, and especially orthochromis/teleocichla (thinking about sourcing them from O.Lucanus in Montreal). What would you guys suggest here? Would I be able to house a couple species of cichlids (say nanochromis+pelvicachromis) and some other small fish (even non cichlids) in the 65 gal, 48 inch long?

Any thoughts are appreciated. I'm excited about starting a new tank here. It was not planned and I'm soooo happy to do it (my wife is incredibly supporting me! ahahha she knows how much I am missing my fish already)

PS please don't suggets Malawi if I am to buffer the water it would be a no brainer for me to go back to Tangs

[Nene]

After getting Oliver Lucanus fish list (below water.com) I decided I want to have a go with the west africans from Congo.
I'll probably be getting Teleogramma brichardi and Nanochromis parilus. Tank will be 40 gal
Any suggestions on what I can add for the top part of the tank? They have Epiplatis sunga as well... would they work together with the cichlids?
I know about phenacogrammus but don't really like them. Any other killy/tetra/ciprinid/barbus I can add to occupy the water near the surface?

[Nene]

Ok reached a decision on the final population. Thanks to Oliver for the advice

4 Nanochromis parilus
6 Teleogramma brichardi
10-12 neolebias trewavasae (actually pretty excited about these as well!)

Now I need sand, some nice driftwood and plants... I plan to take look at the river for nice round-shaped rocks

[donJ]

When I had cichlids, the place to get sand was Mermaid Pools on Ogilvie road.

[CichlidFanatic]

I found a fantastic pool filter sand at Canadian tire. It was $12 for a 40lb bag.
What I like about it is the color (almost white but not quite), that it was fine so my African Cichlids could sift it easily and that it was heavy so it didn't float into my filters . It sinks quickly after they spit it out.

[Jody]

I agree with CichlidFanatic, I like the pool sand at Canadian tire. It is super easy to clean, and almost doesn't need rinsing. In fact I have used it a couple of times just tossing it in the tank.

Jody

[Nene]

This is great advice thanks guys
Would love to get some darker shade of sand (would prefer something brownish, given the Congo river biotope and darkish fish) so would check out the one at canadian tire. Does the Coventry rd location carry it?
I also heard about play sand and/or PFS from home depot. Any good? Play sand would probably be messier but I would still give it a try if it comes in a darker shade

[CichlidFanatic]

Coventry location does carry it. That is where I bought mine. It's a clear bag so you can see the color.
I thought it might be a little too bright but I've now changed my mind and love it. As Jody mentioned its quite clean. No dust like a lot of other sands.

Whichever you choose just be careful it's not getting into your filter intakes.

[Gilbotron]

If you want dark sand (almost black) you can get coal slag from Tractor Supply Co. (sand blasting material).  I think I paid about $10 for 25 or 50lbs.  I use it in a planted tank and it looks great.

Only downside is its a real pain to clean. Requires multiple rinses in hot water to get all the oily residue out.   

[fischkopp]

You are planning an interesting setup. Looking forward to see how it develops. I have kept some west africans in the past, interesting behaviour, very hyper if compared to the south Americans.

I tend to favour play sand these days. It tends to be finer than pool filter sand, something I prefer with fish like cory, apisto and the like. It's also a tad darker yellow brown, compared to silica pool filter sand. A bit more cleaning, but that's fine with me. Got mine from Lowes.

[Nene]

Got play sand (king brand) at home depot super cheap (6$/20kg) and darker-natural shade. PFS was too bright for what I had in mind. Didn't want the fish to look washed out. Think they'll be more confident on a darker substrate.

I should get a python from amazon soon and be ready to fill the tank and start it. Now I have some sand rinsing to do eheheh good thing the tank is rather small

PS met a few of you guys yesterday at the meeting (I'm the guy starting the whole "automatic vs manual water changes" discussion LOL) and must say interesting bunch of folks. I'm an OVAS member now too so you'll likely see me around more often starting from Sept

Enea

[Nene]

Quick update. Tank started. Still need to add some rockwork to the right-hand side and plants


Fishes will be coming in next week

[matttimms49]

Looks great, I may pick up some of that sand also

[Nene]

Looks great, I may pick up some of that sand also

It's actually very nice and naturally looking. Be aware though that it does have a significant amount of bigger pebbles mixed in (I actually like them as they give a more natural look overall) and needs significant washing (puts out orange-brownish cloudy water when you wash it). But hey again is cheap and works ok for my purposes

[Jody]

That looks great!

Thanks for the update

Jody

[Nene]

Little update:
Unfortunately lost 3 of the Teleogramma after the very first water change. They were doing just fine and after a 40% WC they started gasping. I figured they were just scared but the next morning found 3 dead. Still wondering what the hell happened as the only ones having this reaction were the Teleo. Nanochromis and Neolebias didn't notice at all!

The other fish are currently doing fine and are well adjusted. Still trying to figure out the sexes on the Nanochromis as fish get along pretty well but kind of take turn in dominance... we'll see in some more time. They are beautiful fish though and I'm very happy with them

Neolebias are also great but still a bit scared. I'm planning of adding some plants (Anubias and Vallisneria to stick to the African theme) and see if that helps giving them more confidence. I also could add some more top-dwelling fish if needed but I'll decide after putting the plants in (maybe some Epiplatys from the Congo region... also Phenacogrammus can be an option but they're a bit too mainstream for me eheheh). When lights are off and they're more confident I also saw a 2-3 males get significantly redder. Cool little fish.

The real bummer is that I think the 3 Teleo I lost were all female so I might be left with 3 males (judging from the tail color)... I'll consider getting a couple new females when I'm sure the rest are fine

[Nene]

Bad news guys
Yesterday night I did my usual 30% water change and this morning found another 2 Teleo dead... the remaining one is breathing heavily as well
They were doing good up to yesterday and a month went by since I lost the other 3. I did nothing different from my usual routine with which they seemed happy so far. I'm also sure this time no fights went on since the 3 fish were all living peacefully together.

I'm a bit discouraged to be honest. What am I missing? Can a 30% water change be so harmful? Ph swing? I did not test honestly since I am keeping them in straight tap water. Can the 2 driftwood I have in the tank bring the ph so far down over time that a 30% water change affects it so much as to make fish die in hours?!
I'm new to soft water so any suggestions will be appreciated

[Mike L]

Just curious what your water change routine consists of. Are you adding water conditioner? Is the water temp the same as tank water?  What are your water perameters? Answering this might help eliminate some possible issues.
Mike

[Nene]

Just curious what your water change routine consists of. Are you adding water conditioner? Is the water temp the same as tank water?  What are your water parameters? Answering this might help eliminate some possible issues.
Mike

I use a python hose to change water. 30% weekly straight from the tap. I chose these fish specifically so that they could do well in my tap water parameters (ph 7.5ish, low hardness. The regular city water we get in sandy hill, as discussed above).
While filling up the tank I dump some prime in, dosing for the full 40gals of the tank, so approx 5ml. I regulate water temp from the faucet so that it matches the one in the tank and never ended up with more than 0.5 degrees difference once done filling.

The only thing that can possibly change is the ph (but I haven't tested it honestly since I have no Co2 and didn't think the driftwood could make much of a difference). I will keep a water sample from just before the next water change and have it tested at Big Al's to figure out what can be different in comparison to my tap water

[fischkopp]

Always a bummer to loose fish after water changes since this is supposed to be good. I regularly change 90% straight from the tap. The few times it ended badly I either forgot to add prime or had emptied the hot water tank. Some fish do react finicky to the changing water, I noted that with discus and compressiceps. Some catfish take some time adjusting as well. The compressiceps were much happier when I used per-conditioned water. To much work for me, so I parted with them ...

My routine is pretty much the same as your, drain, than add water that's adjusted for temperature - though I don't try to match, I am happy if it's above 18 deg C. I also add prime (chloramx in the old days, safe these days) directly, generously dosed for tank volume, and often a little more, especially with new arrivals or during spring time. Keep in mind that you can safely overdose up to 5x.

Also, when I add water, I make sure it splashes on the surface; this will oxygenate the water, releases chlorine, and releases excess oxygen/air (winter time).

pH changes can be drastic, this is what upset my discus. Straight out of the tap, it tends to be around 8-9 (artificially raised), and will eventually settle just below 7. What's special about our water in town is the low buffer/hardness of <4GH. Without water changes or additives I have seen the pH drop to 4 within 2-3 weeks in some tanks - not so good. It's not so much wood causing this, but the actual bio-filtration: nitrification is an acidic process, so any bioload will gradually lower the pH over time. This is the main reason why I do 90% water changes: I don't want to add anything to increase the buffer capacity, to I maximize the water changes to restore close to tap water conditions. This works best with a fixed schedule of re-occurring water changes within a short time; I used to do it weekly and it gave me the best results.

Hope this helps.

[Mike L]

It would be wise to purchase a complete test kit and water hardness kit so that tests can be run before and after water changes. It will give you a better idea of what is transpiring. I personally never do less then 50% or more but we all have our methods and reasons for the methods.
On a separate note. Don't be afraid to house tanganyikans in our water. Mine do fine in our city water. I do add a cichlid mix of Epsom salt, baking soda, and sea salt for trace minerals. I can make enough for a year for about 35 bucks. This does 5 tanks too

[Nene]

It would be wise to purchase a complete test kit and water hardness kit so that tests can be run before and after water changes. It will give you a better idea of what is transpiring. I personally never do less then 50% or more but we all have our methods and reasons for the methods.
On a separate note. Don't be afraid to house tanganyikans in our water. Mine do fine in our city water. I do add a cichlid mix of Epsom salt, baking soda, and sea salt for trace minerals. I can make enough for a year for about 35 bucks. This does 5 tanks too

Any good place where to get the Epsom salt and baking soda in bulk at a good price?
For now I'll be sticking with the west africans but I know I want to go back to keeping tangs in some time

I'll run more tests on the water pre and post EC and report back

[Nene]

PS thanks for the tips on water changes.
As I said I'm very new to soft water, epsecially low KH,  and I guess that those possible drops in ph you were mentioning might be what's going wrong here.
A ph dropping to 4 in 2-3 weeks is quite dramatic! Didn't think that just a bunch of small fish (my bioload is pretty low with just a few fish in a 40gal) and the nitrification process could bring it down so much in matter of a week (or a little more)

[Nene]

Eureka! After losing some fish and, being stubborn, buying a few new females for my loner male... This evening I just saw 8-10 fries swimming around the bottom of the tank guarded by daddy Teleogramma.
Yay! Feels good to be back breeding cichlids after I left my tanganyikans at home.

This is my first West African cichlid spawn and I'm happy I was able to figure out what didn't work the first time with them. Back in the business baby! Whoooo happy as a child

[Jody]

Wow, that is fantastic!
Keep an eye on the dates for your breeder points too.
When they get large enough to sell, I would be interested in some
Jody

[Nene]

A couple videos of the fries

Saturday when I first noticed them. Guarded by the male
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvE2crGlQ9E

And yesterday when they got out with the female looking for food (there seem to be ~15)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9WrGB8Mzyw

They seem to become braver in exploring the tank in the evening when room lights are out. Despite I haven't feed them anything specific apart from what I give the adults, they seem to have their bellies quite full. Maybe I'll try to pull out a few of them to grow them out

[Nene]

Baby Teleogramma in the breeders net doing fine and growing. Also 3-4 still in with the parents in the main tank, also apparently doing fine!
Let's see if this continues when they decide to spawn again

[matttimms49]

that's awesome, glad the fry are doing well. Do you think they will be large enough to bring to the livestock auction?

[Jody]

Looking awesome Nene!
Teleogramma are great fish and it is always fantastic to have someone breeding them.

Jody