African Lake Recipe

[Quatro]

OK, lets talk about this some more. 

I was looking through the forum trying to find DarkDeps Cichlid tank recipe and couldn't so I went to cichlid-forums.  It didn't look right there so I searched some more and found DarkDep's.  Now I need to know which one is correct (DarkDep's of course  ).

Cichlid-Forum - per 5gal  1 teaspoon baking soda, 1 TABLEspoon epsom salt, 1 teaspoon marine salt

DarkDep - per 5gal  1 teaspoon baking soda, 1 TEAspoon epsom salt

Why the big difference in epsom salt?  Thanks

Mike S

[darkdep]

Darkdep's formula?  I didn't realize it had reached the status of being named

I currently use:

- 1 Teaspoon Baking Soda
- 1 Teaspoon Epsom Salt
- 1 Teaspoon Coarse Salt

Here are the reasons for the various ingredients:

- Baking Soda is for increasing pH / kH.  You really can't add "too much" of this; it's pH raising capability maxes out about 8.2-8.3. 

- Salt is needed by rift lake cichlids for optimal health and helps to prevent parasites.  "Coarse salt" is the best way to buy this, as it is essentially regular table salt without the iodine; it's pure.

- Epsom Salt (Magnesium Sulfate) is for raising gH (Hardness) of the water.

First of all, please note that the Cichlid-Forum recipe comes from a site with a great deal of very knowledgable people, and is one of the most valuable sources of Cichlid information available on the planet.  So please make sure you consider that when you read this next part.

IMHO, the Cichlid forum recipe is too simple. 

In reality, Lake Tanganyika is FAR different in chemistry compared to Malawi/Victoria.  Tanganyika has very hard water whereas Malawi and Victoria are actually NOT very hard at all.  Sure, compared to an Amazon stream they are, but Malawi water is not really much harder than Ottawa tap water!

"Hardness" is the measurement of Calcium and Magnesium ions in the water.  Epsom salt is a very convenient and cheap source of magnesium so it's dumped in in massive quantities to increase the "gH" of the water...however, again, in reality the lakes gH component leans far more towards Calcium as opposed to magnesium. 

However, let's say you keep all tangs and want "Tanganyikan" water.  Many studies have shown that fish spawn more often and have larger, healthier broods when raised in MALAWI water, suggesting that extreme hardness isn't necessarily best for africans, especially domestic raised ones.

I'm working on a "better" cichlid formula right now, and when I have some time off for Christmas I hope to mix it up and come up with some proper concentrations for Ottawa water.  The "better" mix with have some of the very-desireable-but-missing elements from the simpler recipes.

So, again BIG DISCLAIMER, Cichlid-Forum is one of THE cichlid references on the internet and I'm "just some guy" who keeps them, but IMHO the cichlid-forum recipe is just too blunt.

[Quatro]

Darkdep's formula?  I didn't realize it had reached the status of being named

It's the All Powerful Recipe.   

Thanks for the info.  I used the cichlid forum recipe tonight on a water change.  They didn't seem to mind at all.  In fact my male Hap Ruby Green looks better then I have ever seen him.

Mike S

[rickster]

OK Now you got me wondering  ???Where do you buy the coarse salt ,is this a trade secret  ...if not can you spill the beans .Thanks guy's take care Rickster

[babblefish1960]

I have to say Darkdep, that you have outdone yourself. This is a well thought out and sound reasoning for water parameters as pertains to the mysterious and often over-simplified problem that is the rift lakes. I for one would like to see this All Powerful rift lake recipe turned into an article to reference. Well done, the recipe should include the reasoning as well, as this is what makes it so believable and incontrovertible. Q.E.D.

[Quatro]

Where do you buy the coarse salt

Hey Rick,

I currently use the aquarium salt from Big Als.  Too pricey though.  I believe "coarse salt" can be purchased in the baking isle of your local grocery store.

Mike S

[Quatro]

I just looked online a bit and it seems to me that "coarse salt" is the same as table salt but bigger pieces.  Pickling salt has no iodine or other additives.  Is that what people use?

[mila]

I have only Tangs and use
1 teasp. baking soda
2 teasp. Epsom salt
1 teasp. coarse salt from grocery store (natural, no additives)
My water from tap is very soft, 2-3 kH, 5-6 gH, pH close to 9.

[darkdep]

I buy all the ingredients at Bulk Barn.  Coarse Salt is indeed just larger pieces of common table salt with no additives.  Aquarium Salt/Coarse Salt/Pickling Salt/Kosher Salt are all equivilent.

[artw]

I used water softener salt, you can get a huge bag from Home Depot for like nothing.
its been awhile but I think my recipe was similar to APW's

[bitterman]

I buy all the ingredients at Bulk Barn.  Coarse Salt is indeed just larger pieces of common table salt with no additives.  Aquarium Salt/Coarse Salt/Pickling Salt/Kosher Salt are all equivilent.

Some people use salt mix for a SW setup as it has more of the trace elements that may be missing in the pickling salt.

I asked a long time ago about a better buffer for Lake Tanganyika in this thread:
http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=8934.0

[kennyman]

I was kind of hoping this discussion was going to turn to recommended alk, ppm Ca, and ppm Magnesium for the groups of cichlids we keep. How are you guys determining that your levels are low enough to warrent additives 

[pegasus]

Some people use salt mix for a SW setup as it has more of the trace elements that may be missing in the pickling salt.

I use Multi Vitamin pills in my beefhart, why not directly in the water?

[artw]

A few years back somebody posted the Ottawa City Water Analysis report, and by simply studying that and comparing it to a similar analysis of the African lakes, one can quickly see that the Ottawa water is low in pretty much everything, trace chemical wise.  Well water, otoh, is usually hard enough (right Bruce?)

[bitterman]

Yeah my well water has the following parameters and I do nothing with my tanks water:
Ph 9.1
GH 225 mg/l
KH 190 mg/l

My tangs are very happy in the water.

Bruce

[darkdep]

Ok, I think I'm doing something wrong.  This Table gives the most scientific data I can find on the "major" components of Lakes Malawi and Tanganyika.  (Cichlid Forum repeats this chart in their library too).

Everything else I read just says things like "Malawi is 10 gh" etc etc without any actual reference or anything to state where the values come from.

According to this chart, Malawi ranges from 16.4-19.8 ppm Calcium and 4.7-8.8 ppm Magnesium.  Adding the highest numbers together gives 28.6ppm, which if I'm doing things right means the GH of Malawi is...less then 2 ?  Using the same logic for the Tanganyika numbers (which we know is far harder) I still only get a total of 3.4...

Does anyone have any numbers for Malawi/Tanganyika that specifically measure gH/Calcium/Magnesium, that come from a documented scientific source?

artw:  ANY chance at all you personally took any readings when you visited Malawi?

[artw]

I was going to bring back water samples but I was too busy chasing cichlids.  The next time we get a shipment from Stuart at the store I could test some of the bag water

[bitterman]

I was going to bring back water samples but I was too busy chasing cichlids.  The next time we get a shipment from Stuart at the store I could test some of the bag water

Art that will give you skew'd results because the Ph drops as the fish poo in the water. If you had them send a bad with nothing in it that would work.

Bruce

[kennyman]

Hey Dark the forumla I have for this drives me nutts. Its the one from Hagen on thier Ca test kit.

The magnesium ppm is multiplied by 4.1 to get Mg hardness
And Calcium ppm is multiplied by 2.5 to get calcium hardness

Did you apply the factors to the values before adding them together?

But i dont know. I have been trying to figure this formula out for weeks.

[artw]

take it with a grain of salt (haha!)  but here is what Wikipedia says about it.   The fact of the matter is, if your fish are happy in your water thats good,  and if your water is as close to tap as possible, that means you dont have to do as much monkeying around with it.

Water Chemistry
The water in lake Malawi is typically alkaline with a pH of 7.7 - 8.6, a carbonate hardness of 107 - 142 mg L-1 and a conductivity of 210-285 µS cm-1. The lake water is generally warm having a surface temperature that ranges from 24 - 29 °C (75 - 84 °F) and a deep level temperature of 22 °C (71.6 °F)

[darkdep]

kennyman:  The calcium kit is weird, but there is a calculation to take total hardness, and take the calcium hardness to give you magnesium hardness and vice versa...I think you need a gH value with the Ca value to do anything useful.

artw: Wikipedia's article states that they have no reference for that info.

[blizzack1]

artw: Wikipedia's article states that they have no reference for that info.

Isn't that what Wikipedia is all about?

[kennyman]

I just though it might help with your calculation. But now I see that 19.8 ppm ca vlaue you were working with is outrageous. Thats below the threshold of a my Ca test kit!

[darkdep]

kennyman:  Exactly!  Sorry, I typed that post really fast cause I'm in class right now   I have the same Ca test kit I think (Hagen one?).  One of the things I like about it is that it has calculations to figure out Mg levels if you know gH and Ca.

So, right now I have this data...Official numbers (from 1965, granted) that state Ca and Mg numbers indicating the gH of Malawi should be on the order of 2.  But everywhere else (with no actual scientifically recorded numbers) quotes everywhere from 7-to-seemingly-infinity.

Other references state that the Malawi values vary considerably from one area of the lake to another (which is why pH there ranges from 7.6-8. but I simply cannot figure out why everyone states this lake is so hard if, in fact, it is quite soft.

Maybe the country of Malawi has a natural resources government department?  I'd almost be willing to contact them directly to clear this up, it's driving me crazy.

[PaleoFishGirl]

Sounds like we need an OVAS road trip

[artw]

Good luck contacting any government office in Malawi. You'd better off contacting Stuart Grant or Ad Konings or African Diving in Tanzania.
the water in Lake Malawi is nothing special, its not like this magical salty elixir...  it looks, tastes or feels no different than Lake Ontario. there is just no thermocline (which means its the same temperature at 120 feet as it is at the surface).   It tastes like slightly minerally RO water, kinda like Dasani (dasani is RO water remineralized).   you just need to remember to scoop up water from the correct side of the diesel boat (LOL, exhaust, spit, spit!)

[darkdep]

I think I may try to contact Ad Konings.  I know Spencer Jack buys books from him, so he may be able to introduce me so he'll actually answer my emails

See art, you're in the unique position of having been there...what are your thoughts on this thing where the scientific sources say pretty much what you just said (water is similar to lake ontario, not very mineral) but just about every common source says Malawi is full of minerals?

[artw]

My scientific side just says "keep using whatever your fish are comfortable with".  Ad and Stuart will tell you the same. the only reason why I buffered my tanks was to keep the PH from crashing since I generally had my tanks overstocked.  and yes, lake malawi is harder and more alkaline than most softwater tannic lakes and rivers in Ontario such as Ottawa's water source, Ottawa River.

this is of course due to the large presense of limestone rocks in and around the Lake (Malawi)  a quick look at mine or any pics of the lake will tell you this.   Some ontario lakes exhibit this characteristics too,  for example Charleston lake and Big Salmon Lake in Frontenac Park, and to a lesser extent Lake Huron near Tobermory.    31 Mile Lake in Quebec is pretty much all limestone karst, similar to the kart springs and caves in Florida (yay, 19 days!)  these are probably in fact harder and more alkaline than Malawi, I will bring test kits to FL because I am curious.

[darkdep]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not promoting mass water parameter changes.  But now I'm completely curious just from a conversational standpoint.

I WANT HARD DATA!!!

[babblefish1960]

Well APW, instead of the East Coast for a holiday, you could accidently keep flying past and go to Tanzania yourself, (the kids and wife might hardly notice if you construct a close likeness out of sand on the beach), and take some scientific equipment and have a gander on your own. Call it a fact finding mission if you will, you could camp out at Ad's place and drag pegasus along for documentary style photography as well as corraborative evidence of your findings. Heck I'd even chip in $5 if it helps.

[artw]

so come with me in 2008 APW.  I will organise a trip.

[darkdep]

What's a trip like that cost?

[artw]

budget around 5000.  If you dont know how to dive yet add another $1000 for lessons and gear in Ottawa.   Start your scuba training about 6 months prior to your trip.  I will be organising a trip sometime in Sept-Oct-Nov 2008.  Airfares have come down, so I see, London LHR to Lilongwe is $1152 US round trip (which is nothing)  I paid around $2500 CDN from Toronto in 2002.  I am sure you can find a discount Toronto to LHR for under $500 round.
http://www.cichlidpress.com/safari/malawi2005.html
http://www.cichlidpress.com/safari/travelguide.htm