My fish has gone crazy?

[Gowalkitoff]

I have a 120g with 2 fish, a medium jack dempsey and a small jaguar cichlid.  For an unknown reason, about 3 weeks ago the jack started completely freaking out.  It either hides in its cave, or under it, IF it comes out.  When out, and not always from anyone walking by or moving around, it will freak out and dart around the tank, slamming itself off the glass, try to jump out as its racing around, and is occasionally injuring itself in the process (little face scrapes here and there from banging off the driftwood).  The jaguar seems fine other than copying its hiding behaviour.  What the heck is going on?  Normal appetite, healthy otherwise but i am feeding anti protozoan flake just in case, fading its colors in an out more as though something is stressing it out. Water parameters are all okay, temp holds at 80.

Edit: upon further reading it may be whirling disease.  Does anyone have experience with this?

Edit 2: watched some videos, not whirling disease.  Attached a video to visualize, but he doesnt do it, only acts very shy

https://youtu.be/V5JXQJRqSVM

[Gowalkitoff]

Hes not a discus but it reads like dashing discus?

[lucius]

Maybe you need some dither fish to make him more comfortable in his environment.

[Mike L]

Watched the vid. Early on the fins are moving as if stressed although they are not pinned to the body which is good. May I suggest that you put a background on the tank. My favourite is painting it black with latex paint. Also your temp is too high. 80 is fine for pushing breeding. Try getting it down to 76ish.
The idea on dithers is a good one too.

[Gowalkitoff]

His behavior began suddenly without changes.  Would temp or dithers still be a factor? My jaguar hunts everything except him lol. I will definitely drop the temp, thanks

[th3budd]

FYI, you can embed a video directly into a post. Here's a link to the instructions: http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=61970.0

Just like this:

[Gowalkitoff]

Ok thank you, will do next time.

I read that many folks had success with blacking out the tank with blankets and not feeding for 3 days, so I've covered my tank.  I did also lower my heater a bit to ease it down to 76 ish.  Fingers crossed because I've seen my jack knock himself out slamming into the glass and I dont want him to kill himself.

I am not comfortable adding dithers when i dont know if this is an illness.

[Mike L]

 Can you post your parameters. It might help others to chime in

[Mike L]

You might want to keep an eye out on that jaguar too. They are fairly nasty. If it is hiding but otherwise calm then I might look into aggression as a source of stress for the jd

[Gowalkitoff]

Hi Mike thank you. 
My jack is about 6" long and the jaguar is about 2.5-3".  Generally the will hide close together and the jaguar does not seem threatened by the jack.  I have rehomed my other fish because the jaguar hated them.  That is a good point though and I had just assumed they were ok, so I will watch them.

Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates under 5ppm
Gh and kh 4-6
Temp held at 80f, still at 80 but heater lowered to slowly decrease

[Gowalkitoff]

...And ph 7.0

[Gowalkitoff]

I took the blankets off, tested the water and then had to leave.  Both are still shy but jack doesnt seem to be as pale.  Were happy to eat some anti protozoan flake.

Temp 79
Gh and kh 4-6
Ammonia less than 0.25 ppm (I expected some algae die off)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Ph 7.4

I've continued scouring the internet and nothing is definitive but I did find posts where its happening to fish that aren't discus.  It seems to either be electrical or water based with what I've read, so once home I'm going to push changing 100% of the water over the next few days.

[Gowalkitoff]

Today I did a second 50% water change in 4 days, and suddenly now my jack is worse.  Much more pale, was not in his log much, just at the gravel, very very skiddish.  I tested my tank water and its ok but my nitrates are wierdly high.

Ph 6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20ppm

I tested my tap water for curiosity and its a trainwreck.

Ph 8.2
Ammonia 0.75ppm
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 0-2ppm

[Filet_O_Fish]

Are you leaving the water to sit for 24-48hours? I test straight from the tap and get 7.8 PH and after a few days it lowers. Something about water being left out will absorb a small amount of oxygen, a portion of which converts into carbonic acid and so forth.

PH swings could be stressing them.

20ppm is not bad. 40ppm is max. The source of the increase is in question since it seems to have increased since your last postings.

[Gowalkitoff]

No I don't leave my water out.  I never have.  I am about to rinse my filter and brush out the tubes, the tubes look gunky.  I keep some crushed coral in my filter to keep my tank ph around 6.6-7 because before that, it would constantly crash below the tests numbers. I did used to have ph swings that stressed them badly. I still find it odd only my jack is affected, and i still don't think its a water problem but that a water problem is exacerbating the problem.  I ended up changing my mind on dither fish, and I picked up a young convict (which is hysterical) which has helped with the jaguar but not the jack.  My jaguar was always a but reclusive so I'm not concerned about it, and his behavioir has been constant.

I think my nitrates could be from an algae die off when i blacked out the tank for 3 days.  Ive never had a nitrate spike before, and thats all ive done differently. I took some of my daughters bettas water wisteria to help suck it up.  I picked up a new submersible uv sterilizer to help, i out the previous ones pump into electronics recycling because I don't trust it

[Mike L]

In my opinion your doing too much. At this point you might be doing the stressing with all the constant changes. He/she is eating which indicates generally good health. No?

Uv sterilizer. Not needed. Dismantling and cleaning filter. Maybe. My hobs housing maybe get cleaned once a year. My canisters filters I've not cleaned the hosing in years.
Only clean my filter pads when water changing using the old water for that purpose. THAT GUNK YOU ARE CLEANING AWAY IS LOADED WITH BB. Especially important with a new tank not to clean any more then the filter pads and bio and I wouldn't even clean them for the 1rest 6 month's .

Have you done something about the background. My understanding based on your posts is that the fish tank is in a hi traffic zone. Some fish get adversely affected by constant movements. Did the blanket help. Instead of covering the whole tank just block off three sides leaving the front open. See if this settles things.

Nitrate  reading. What test kit are you using. 20ppm is fine. My tanks sometimes get to 40ppm then I do water changes.
As I said at the outset. Stop stressing. It is after all a fish. There is not a fishkeeper that has not lost a fish or 20 if you've been at it for long enough. And most will tell you that few sick fish are saved.
In the end you have done all the steps required. Now let things settle. But get a dark background please?

[Gowalkitoff]

You leave the brown sludge in your tubes and filter alone? You cant see all the nasty stuff it keeps blowing into the water?  Or your impeller doesnt slow down?  Mine always has....

Yes of course rinse in tank water!

This has always been in a high traffic zone, and I have had this jack since it was 1.5 inches in May, so I really like it and its always been active and out and indifferent to traffic.  So yes, this sudden change in behaviour concerns me, I am both curious amd concerned.

No I have not tried a background yet, it is my last thing to try.  I'm trying to do things apart so that I can tell which causes an improvement.  The blankets did not help.  A simple water change should not be "too much change", he turned white and refused his log, that is why I then furthured cleaning and testing.  He has improved since. He has finished both a round of anti protozoa food and a round of deworming food. Picking up a young convict has helped a bit too, so this evening I picked up 2 small lake victoria cichlids.  Too small, both unfortunately and funny is that now my jack is out happily hunting them!  They looked bigger at the store, haha.

I have an api master test kit and an api hardness test box.  I have never had such high nitrates but this was my first go with slower growing plants.  Ive added in a little bit of excel and my plants have put it to good use and already exploded.

Please understand my hobby is not in the amounts I can keep, but how perfectly i can keep one.  The more you know, the better you can be and "sometimes sh#t just happens" I still need an answer to lol.

Yes he has a good appetite.  I know fish can be full of worms and still eat, so no possibly wasn't good health, who knows!  I am taking everyone's advice and going through the ideas one at a time.  I appreciate all the input!  I am starting to think that something we or my kids did one day just scared the sh#t out of him.  For some reason the trust has been broken.  He would eat out of my hand before.

[Mike L]

Ok. It appears you have a handle on things.
Regards Mike

[Pastis]

You don't have enough hideouts maybe, and in my opinion (I can be wrong) the jaguar is probably killing Jack slowly if he is not enough agressive....

Jack will be probably happier with two females at least 😀

[Gowalkitoff]

Hmm my jack is pretty chill... I will watch out for that.  Only one dither made it through the night, but the additions did help, so today I picked up a few more that I know should create a nice mix to liven things up.  A 1.5" firemouth, a 1.5" red terror, and 12x 1.5" green tiger barbs.  That will hold up againt the turkey Jaguar and take attention away from the poor little cichlid left from yesterday. 

I also picked up dark riverstone which I swapped out this evening to tone things down, made sure to only remove half the water, and I picked up black background paper which I will put on tomorrow morning. 

He's been slowly improving since I took off my HOB uv, I still think it was the shady Amazon pump I bought to attach to it.  I'm undoing shock therapy -_-

[Gowalkitoff]

So we are down 2 barbs, that's all jaguar.  But his hunting style is really interesting to watch and not like his territorial behaviour, I'll give him that.  Nobody is paying any attention to the poor little hap 44 now.

Jack is loving the recommended changes!  He hasn't gone pale once.  He is still a bit skiddish about quick and close up movements, but the overnight improvement is so amazing.  His color is rich and he has been out swimming and exploring, albeit cautiously when he gets to the other side where the previous uv pump was.  Fingers crossed now he can just keep recovering!

[Gowalkitoff]

I just want to say thank you again for all of the input and ideas.  My jack has been doing amazing ever since I changed up the decor, added the background, and added dithers.  None of the fish I added were working (they were getting eaten) so I returned them and picked up another convict, 2 jewels, a red terror and a green terror.  All of them 2" or a bit more.  Everyone is fine, no fights, lots of balanced activity, and jack keeps coming out to dance and watch us eat dinner like old times.  The jaguar is handling everything very well too.  I never would have thought that the ambiance was furthering the problem.

I do appreciate it!  I know what I'm like, lol.