bringing Koi in for the winter - Cycle question

[CMW]

I plan to bring my pond koi in for the winter.  My question is whether I need to stage their entry and what I should do about their water.

We have a large aquarium in the house that currently houses 2 shubunkins.  They are there, in theory, to keep the filter media fed.  I have not decided whether we will keep the shubunkins come fall or whether we will find them a better home (or maybe get them a smaller aquarium they can stay in for the winter and then move back into the big tank).  We will be bringing in our Koi though.  Reading some other posts I am worried about starting a possible ammonia-nitrate-nitrite cycle by increasing the number of fish in the tank.  I am also wondering about what water to use.

Unless anyone can advise me better, my plan is to change out the tank water for pond water (if I decide to keep the Shubunkins in that tank I will do this starting with a 1/3 change so as not to shock them either - size wise I am not worried as they are nearly as big as the smaller Koi) and to bring the pond fish in slowly. 

I have a Fluval 404 so I am hoping that that is where my good bacteria lives and that changing the water in the tank will not affect the bacteria.  How much do I need to stagger the introduction of the pond fish to avoid overwhelming the bacteria...or is there enough bacteria to handle as much ammonia as the Koi can produce???

Down the road we will probably build an indoor pond as we have a large piece of pond liner and felt liner and pieces of wood etc.  Our koi are still small in size and number so they should be good in the tank this winter, and we will be able to see them more.

I have been told by many that I could overwinter them in the pond and I might try that with some common goldfish, but after reading a detailed article on what goes on under the ice I would be very worried that they would all be dead come spring and I would rather bring them in where I can keep an eye on them....not a hard task give how pretty they are.

Any suggestions welcome.

Cheers,
c

[The Pond Boy]

Hi,

Taking the koi indoors in the winter is possible but not necessary in this area.  What is the reason you like to bring them in? I think there is a risk you will lose a fish in the winter, but you will have the same risk when you bring them indoors. My personal opinion, there is more risk to have them indoors then in your pond special when the koi are growing and most indoor tanks are overcrowded.

If you want to do a quick start in your tank or pond, you can seed it with the bacteria from the pond. I put in the tank one filter from the bioballs. Didn't clean it put it is as it was. First your water will be cloudly but the filter will clean it up very fast. The bacteria are working from that moment and you will not have a ammonia problem or when you overcroud your tank.
Thanks,

The Pond Boy,
Greg

[babblefish1960]

I would agree with the Pond Boy on this one, better success would be found in the keeping of the fish in the pond over winter.

[CMW]

With regards to why I want to bring them in:
This is the first winter for the pond and it is built in soil around the house foundation that is above the normal ground level and is only 24" deep.  I think this combo raises the risk of it freezing too much.
We need to so some pretty big work on the pond either this fall or in the spring and will need to get everyone out for a good period of time anyway
My Koi are very new and very small and they are just getting used to us.  I would like to have them inside with us for the winter so they can get to know us better.

I just want to minimize the shocks the move will cause them.

I may leave some commons in the pond over the winter and see how they do.  They are supposed to be hardier then the butterflies.  As for fish:tank, I ran it by The Pond Clinic and they seemed to think we were good to go.

For the fish that say in the pond, do I need to buy some cold water bacteria?

c

[The Pond Boy]

Under or above the ground level, it doesn't make a big difference. As I said you will need a heater to keep a hole in the ice or put in your pond a pump as a fountain. This will keep a hole in the ice and the fish will be fine. You don't need to add cold water bacteria when you don't do a fall cleaning of you pond. I think for most ponders it is saver to keep the fish in the pond then take them out in a tank.
Thanks,

The Pond Boy,
Greg

[oenology]

I have to disagree with the above post for personal experience. I have a koi pond that is about 3 feet deep. The first winter I left the fish in with a small bubbler going and they managed to survive (all were goldfish). I thought great, now for koi. And because they were bigger I bought one on the cattle trough heaters to keep a large hole open in the ice. During the coldest part of the winter it stopped working. I jury rigged an insulated bucket with a light bulb inside to get a hole opened but come spring all my fish were dead. I replaced them all with goldfish again and that winter I thought, fine I'll fork out the bucks and buy a real pond heater. It kept a hole in the ice but all the fish were dead none the less. So my conclusion - unless you have a bubbler and a very clean pond I wouldn't risk it. I now bring my guys in in the winter and house them in a 5000g inflatable swimming pool filtered by a pond filter in the basement. It stays about 16C and I only feed them about once a week for the time they are in there (Dec to April or as soon as the water reaches 10C) Just my thoughts on the subject.

[KLKelly]

Sorry - threadjack - what do you do with the 5000 gallons of water in the basement come spring? WOW!

[CMW]

5000 GALLONS?!?!?!?!?!?!?! 

How many Koi do you have and how big are they?  My outside pond is 23' x 11' and it is only estimated to be 1,800 gallons. 

So, you leave them out until Dec hun?  How do you decide when to bring them in?  I thought I might have to bring them inside in October.

An inflatable pool sounds like a neat idea.  Do you have a sump pump that you can pour the water into?  Do you do water changes while they are inside?  What temperature do you keep your basement at? 

c

[oenology]

To answer your questions:

I leave them out until December because I'm in France until then (makes for very cold fishing!)
The basement is really a tall crawl space and is not really heated per say except that the furnace is down there so it stays around 16C. I have 3 koi, 2 of which are well over a foot and the other one is gaining fast. Then I have all the goldfish, about 17 or so that are reaching a pretty good size. I don't do water changes but sometimes I will top up the pool if the sides start to collapse too much.