ABS vs PVC

[Greatwhite]

Just starting this thread to remove the discussion of ABS pipe in aquariums from Joey's aquarium thread...

Don't forget that many, if not most, of the bulkheads that we use on our tanks are made from ABS.

I kind of hope that this is not true, but also don't forget that there are different grades of ABS and PVC.  Some is classified as potable (ie/ can be used to transport drinking water) and some is not. 

I used PVC for my central vac tubing, and some PVC is used for electrical conduit.  Those types of PVC are NOT classified as potable - or even as suitable for transport of water, and wouldn't be used in an aquarium.

Some ABS may be classified as potable, but building code says not to use it for anything other than draining to the sewer.  As mentioned, anti-algae chemicals that MAY be present in the pipe that can leech into the tank.

My fish swim in water that is (or was) cleaner than the water I drink.  I'm certainly not about to run it through a pipe that is not considered high enough quality for me to drink out of.   But that's just a choice that I made.  There are people who argue against using flexible PVC (clear tubes) because you can get algae build-up in the pipe, but I use that stuff myself for easier plumbing and one big bend instead of several little ones to get from point A to B.

Incidentally - when I got my bulkheads, I got PVC ones.   Not sure any fish store would sell an ABS bulkhead...

And for the record, Joey - I DO my own research before making decisions.  I research fish before I buy them, and I research plumbing options before I do any plumbing.  Part of my research is to look at other peoples' past experiences and reviews on products, and I hadn't seen anyone positively say "go ahead and use ABS pipe in an aquarium", so I stuck with PVC.

Shoot, I am renovating a bathroom right now, and spent 2 months researching products before I bought anything.  I should mention that 20 year old ABS drain pipes look HORRIBLE, while the 3/4" Poly-B water lines still look brand new.  I had to convert some sections of water line to PEX since Poly-B is not made anymore...

[Greatwhite]

Also, part of doing your research means understanding your findings...

Some basic reading:

ABS:

http://www.ppfahome.org/abs/absgeneral.html#code

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABS_Pipe

Code
ABS is recognized as acceptable for use in DWV systems in all major model plumbing codes.

DWV is Drain Waste Vent.  Vents in the drain line work the same as our sump overflows, allowing air into the system to ensure a smooth "flush"...  And it vents the harmful gasses in the system outside, away from us.  This has NOTHING to do with supplying drinking water to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drain-waste-vent_system

[Gaspare]

I personally only use PVC plumbing in my reef.

I have always used ABS for household drain lines and have never heard of it being used for drinkwater in Canada.  If it were as good as PVC I would think that the house builders would be able to readily purchase 1/2" and 3/4" piping and plumb our homes.  I am no expert but this is just my 2 cents.

I have quite a bit invested in my reef and for the few extra dollars it costs to have PVC it is not worth the gamble to me. 

PVC is not hard to find like it used to be.  Lowes carries a wide range of fittings and valves all constructed out of PVC making it even easier to use PVC in our tanks.

[Hookup]

I use PVC.

I have used electrical PVC and the stuff for central vac.

I've seen tanks with abs in them running long term as well



None of these products concern me.

I've heard rumor that abs is louder, and I dont like noise so why risk it. 

Also abs to spaflex is apparently a harder joint to make.  Again. All rumors as I've only used abs



Black bulkheads were rumored to be PVC.  This was confirmed by the plumbing store guys when I took it there asking if they sold them.  They all tended to agree it was PVC.

PVC plus .com (hate them) sells them as PVC fittings as well.

That said, I've not seen for 100% sure it's not abs.

[JetJumper]

I use PVC.

Also abs to spaflex is apparently a harder joint to make.  Again. All rumors as I've only used abs

Hmmm.. I am confused. haha

[JetJumper]

I tend to find PVC cheaper then ABS so more reason to stick to PVC

[Hookup]

Whoopooooss.  Type-o

I meant PVC.  Never used abs for aquarium. 

I used it for drain lines. 

[lonereefer]

Being a plumber I could tell you right now as a hobbyist there is no difference between abs or pvc the only thing is pvc comes in smaller sizes down to 1/2 and the most common abs pipe starts at 1 1/4". Abs pipe IS NOT sUITABLE FOR POTABLE WATER ANYWHERE IN CANADA

[uarujoey]

Not all PVC is rated for potable use.... Not all ABS is rated for potable use....


Look at the ASTM number on the side of your ABS, or PVC pipe next time you get a chance...

I bet there will be a lot of people googling it to find out if their's is rated safe or not.

The only way to know is by the ASTM number/letter...

Now notice that no one has mentioned the ASTM. You'll also find others(all over the web in our hobby) that claim ABS is not safe, dont mention it either. Some ABS is in fact rated safe for potable use. Right here in canada as well.

NOW, based on my statements above... can we all be sure that what we all are currently using(pvc or abs) is rated with the right ASTM? I doubt it. In fact, most aquarium plumbing is based off of what we see others do. Others say its not safe, so we dont use it.

I think that some are even using the wrong PVC, without even knowing it. Yet think its safe based on the fact that its PVC. When in turn your more likely to come across PVC that is not rated for potable use, then you will ABS.


Even if you had the wrong type of pvc or abs... at what PPM is the "additives" deadly or detrimental to your fish? At what rate does it leach out? does it leach fast enough to get a high enough ppm that could harm your fish?
What specifically are the additives that leach?
I know that pvc that is rated for potable use, contains chlorine... chlorine?

Potable use, means its safe for humans...  we can drink chlorine right out of the tap... what happens to a fish when it comes in contact with the chlorine?  About 57% of PVC's mass is chlorine.... why is this safe? It doesnt disolve fast enough to cause an issue or is it something else?

Quick quote:

PVC plastic, or vinyl, is the largest single use of chlorine. It is widely used for a variety of products, such as packaging, children's toys, furniture, pipes, flooring and window frames. It is also the most environmentally damaging of all plastics, due to the release of organochlorines and other chemicals, such as the hormone-disrupting phthalates, throughout its life-cycle. PVC production requires vast quantities of toxic substances, and toxic byproducts are released into the environment in the process.

Sounds great doesn't it?


When in doubt refer to the ASTM number/letter on the pipe....

I feel that the speed at which anything is released from PVC or ABS is far to slow to even be measurable in an enviroment where the water is constantly changed..

[Greatwhite]

I know that pvc that is rated for potable use, contains chlorine...

I saw that too, and wondered how/why PVC is recommended so strongly...  To be honest, I don't know what leaches out of ABS that cause people to be so scared of it in aquariums.  I have done a fair bit of research, and 90% of what I come across is hypothetical or assumed information based off one person's interpretation of whatever they read.

For instance, if someone didn't know what a DWV was and saw "ABS is approved for all DWV systems in plumbing" - they might get excited and jump in to building their who aquarium's water system from ABS.

Lonereefer says;

Being a plumber I could tell you right now as a hobbyist there is no difference between abs or pvc the only thing is pvc comes in smaller sizes down to 1/2 and the most common abs pipe starts at 1 1/4". Abs pipe IS NOT sUITABLE FOR POTABLE WATER ANYWHERE IN CANADA

But chemically, the pipes are made differently.  They are 100% different composition, in fact.  Granted, PVC is found in smaller sizes that are much more usable than ABS that I've seen only as small as 1 1/4" although I suspect that it's available in smaller sizes.  Since it is only approved for drainage, though - I'm sure they don't bother making smaller ABS because there's no use for it.

My point is, though - ABS cannot carry potable water, so it shouldn't be used in an aquarium.  I don't know how long it takes or how much "bad stuff" leaches out, or even if it does... But I'm not about to take any chances with my fish.

For the record, the only reason I bring this up here is - Joey, you have lots of subscribers on youtube, and lots of people watch your videos.  With great power like that, comes great responsibility to convey accurate information to people.  I am afraid of how many people might watch your video and see ABS pipe - and then design their whole system with ABS, and what the consequence would be of doing that.

Please don't get me wrong, your videos are great, and highly informative...  Like you said in your last one, "you might not agree with how I did things, but this is how I do it - and it works for me"...  True enough.

[Rybren]

My point is, though - ABS cannot carry potable water, so it shouldn't be used in an aquarium. 

Some types of ABS can carry potable water - as Joey mentioned already, you need to check the certification.  I'm quite content to go with the standard, run of the mill ABS.

As for bulkheads, take a look at the Bulk Reef Supply, or Premium Aquatics, or pretty much any other online vendors' website, and look at their bulkheads.  You'll note that they all carry ABS units.

[uarujoey]

For the record, the only reason I bring this up here is - Joey, you have lots of subscribers on youtube, and lots of people watch your videos.  With great power like that, comes great responsibility to convey accurate information to people.  I am afraid of how many people might watch your video and see ABS pipe - and then design their whole system with ABS, and what the consequence would be of doing that.

Please don't get me wrong, your videos are great, and highly informative...  Like you said in your last one, "you might not agree with how I did things, but this is how I do it - and it works for me"...  True enough.

A lot of people do follow my videos, and take everything i say as fact. Which is why i generally add in little disclaimers at the ends of some of my videos. Saying that its the way i do things, and it may not be the way everyone does it. BUT, always research everything before you do anything(mentioning this in the acrylic build series)

My subscriber base is growing at a tremendous rate as of late, and i can feel the added responsibility of insuring correct information. I dont feel the whole ABS thing is an issue though. Like i mentioned above, you are more likely to come across the wrong PVC then you will the wrong ABS.

Some abs is in fact rated for potable use.  Which can be reflected in the ASTM number/letter.

This was a great topic, with lots of added information. It was a great idea to bring it up.

To me, i don't care if i use abs or pvc.... both work fine for me. I use ABS for 1.5" or bigger. So using it is not very common at all due to its standard sizes.

Some types of ABS can carry potable water - as Joey mentioned already, you need to check the certification.  I'm quite content to go with the standard, run of the mill ABS.

As for bulkheads, take a look at the Bulk Reef Supply, or Premium Aquatics, or pretty much any other online vendors' website, and look at their bulkheads.  You'll note that they all carry ABS units.

Agreed.