TANK CRASH...ALL DEAD

[Brine]

Yesterday all was fine...this morning my 75G was dead...three Tetraodon Abei, 30 or so Harlequin Rasborae, some Cardinal Tetras, a Siamese Algae Eater....all dead. I have no idea what happened and I have no test kits. The temperature is good, the filters are running, there is no electrical short. I did no water change yesterday. What kills an entire tank in 12 hours? I am totally in the dark.

So if you happen to be free today and love a good mystery and perhaps have some test kits ....come on by.
Brian
613-282-8102

[Vizerdrix]

Oh no!  Not again!!!

Sorry to hear about your losses, Brine. 

[washefuzzy]

Augggg! I'm sorry you lost all your fish Brine.

[apuppet]

I've a Master Test kit you can borrow.  that way you cna test your water. i've used that kit now&then, but not often enough. 


let me knwo.

sorry for your lost! that was a nice tank!

[Nerine]

wow... I'm so sorry to hear about your tank

[pminister]

Eeek. Sorry for the news. Hope u figure out what happened.

[dan2x38]

Sorry Dude!  Let me know OK...

[Jeff1192]

Wow....that's horrible....hope you can figure out what happened. Those Abei's were really nice.

[tim_s]

sorry to hear this.

[beowulf]

Well that sucks.  Best of luck getting it back up if that is what you decide to do.

[crazy 4 fish]

That's so sad Hope you find out what happened. Those puffers were so cool looking.

[bitterman]

Aww man thats sucks... Better ulck next time. I have a test kit here at work you can have. Its a Mini Master Test kit, but it does expire 08/31/2008

Bruce

[RoxyDog]

Sorry to hear.  

I hope you figure out what happened.  If the filters and heaters are fine and you didn't do a waterchange recently, I dunno what else it could be?  Did you do anything near the tank last night, cleaning, etc or have anyone over who might have?

[fischkopp]

Ohh boy, thats a real bummer. Sorry to hear that this happened again

[Agnate]

Aww, poor little puffers!

That sucks that your tank crashed...  The only thing I can think of (if everything else was fine) is that maybe something was sprayed into the air (perfume, cleaning agent, etc.) or that something horribly poisonous from the ceiling fell into the tank?

The only other thing I could *possibly* think of is that a puffer killed one of the other puffers that happened to have a lot of toxin built up inside, and that toxin wiped out the tank.  However, I find this to be *very* unlikely, as the puffers you had were pretty small and not that old (thus, they shouldn't have much toxin stored away).  Also, most of the stored-up toxin is only poisonous to the fish who eats them... so maybe ALL of your fish ate one of the dead puffers?

[kennyman]

what do you have for substrate in there? Could have been a gas bubble?

[bergenm]

The things that come to mind are:

Full water tests - although I find in these cases the water is not usually the problem

Anything new added to the tank in the last 72 hours
   Food
   Salt
   Ferts/Medicines/Treatments
   Rocks
   Plants
   Ornaments/Shells
   Fish

You have already ruled out a water change, how about
    Faulty CO2 injection
    Any substrates under the gravel
    Any new household cleaners
    Anything fallen in the tank
    Is there a film on the tank's surface
    Does the tank smell funny
    Any kids been around the tank (unsupervised)
    Using anything different on your hands degreasers/hand creams
    I'm not sure if scented candle can harm fish, I know they can drop a bird in their tracks

The fish
    Did anything look wrong with them (other than being dead)
    Had any of them been eaten by the others (indicates if they all died at once)
    Did you find them all

The heater
    Is there any condensation inside the heater
    Any hairline cracks
    I have heard of people testing for electrical currents by putting the two probes of a voltmeter in the tank and cranking up the heater.
    It's possible that the switch in the heater failed and there was a temperature spike

I have encountered this a few times when there has been no obvious explanation, each time it turned out to be the heater either spiking the temperature or shocking the fish.

Regardless of the reason, it still sucks that it happened.

[Brine]

The things that come to mind are:

Full water tests - although I find in these cases the water is not usually the problem

Anything new added to the tank in the last 72 hours
   Food
   Salt
   Ferts/Medicines/Treatments
   Rocks
   Plants
   Ornaments/Shells
   Fish

You have already ruled out a water change, how about
    Faulty CO2 injection
    Any substrates under the gravel
    Any new household cleaners
    Anything fallen in the tank
    Is there a film on the tank's surface
    Does the tank smell funny
    Any kids been around the tank (unsupervised)
    Using anything different on your hands degreasers/hand creams
    I'm not sure if scented candle can harm fish, I know they can drop a bird in their tracks

The fish
    Did anything look wrong with them (other than being dead)
    Had any of them been eaten by the others (indicates if they all died at once)
    Did you find them all

The heater
    Is there any condensation inside the heater
    Any hairline cracks
    I have heard of people testing for electrical currents by putting the two probes of a voltmeter in the tank and cranking up the heater.
    It's possible that the switch in the heater failed and there was a temperature spike

I have encountered this a few times when there has been no obvious explanation, each time it turned out to be the heater either spiking the temperature or shocking the fish.

Regardless of the reason, it still sucks that it happened.

Lots of good suggestions there....The only things I did within a 24 hour period of this mystery was to feed the tank some peas...which I had never done to this tank before. I fed all three of my tanks from the same bowl of peas and nothing happened in the other two tanks....so that is not likely the cause.
I also added a bit of fertilizer from the same container that I have been using for months before on this tank with no adverse effect....so I don't think that is the cause either.
For the life of me I can't figure it out. I have not tested the water but even the most severe spike/drop isn't going to kill ALL the fish that quickly. Some contaminant MUST have been introduced to the tank somehow. I really can't think of what might .....wait a second....I had been Urban Mining...(garbage picking) late Monday night ....I don't recall putting my hands in the tank but I guess it is possible that I had some contaminant on my hands and reached in to adjust a filter intake or some such minor thing....
That is the best idea I have so far....I can easily imagine picking up a contaminant while Mining....hmmm

[dan2x38]

What plant fert are you using? How old is it? Some can spoil. If you overdose it can cause spikes in nitrogen even heavy metals - depending on the fert... this can cause serious issues if a large overdose.

[BigDaddy]

You would have to dump tablespoons to cups of ferts in your tank to cause toxic levels.  Highly unlikely.

[Brine]

I am beginning to suspect the fertilizers because many of the plants melted today and the tank had a distinct yellow tint and a bad smell. I know I dosed much more than I usually do because I did not measure, I just poured some in. I remember thinking "ooops that was more than I had intended to add"  I did a 100% water change and took out about 60% of the plants because they were dead or dying. The water looks much better now but I am going to wait some time before I put any fish in it.

[bergenm]

The question might seem out of place... Do you have a cat?

[tim_s]

If all testing is done (which is probably done as your changing things) I would just re-start the tank.
Better then being unsure and subjecting further fish to the problem.

[Brine]

The question might seem out of place... Do you have a cat?

no cat...just me and the fish...well, just me now   

[Brine]

I borrowed an Ultra Violet sterilizer from Dan 2X38 and took out yet more dying plants. I did a partial water change (50%) and then put in a few Rummy Nose Tetras last night. Today the fish were dead...again. I am going to have to tear down this tank and clean and replace a bunch of stuff. Since this is a family website I will only say I find this quite frustrating and disheartening.

So the mystery remains...what went wrong? Since I have done over 100% water change there is NO WAY that a slight overdose of fertilizers is the cause. I only added 4 or 5 cap fulls of Seachem Flourish which is at MOST 4 times the "recommended dose". After these water changes the fertilizers would be so dilute that they would be of negligible effect and should not have effected the Tetras last night.

So what else could it be? Is it possible that the Prime I use in water changes could effect this one tank and not the others I have? No....
Is it something in my tap water or the buckets I use? Same answer... No it would effect all the tanks not just the one.
So could it be that my hands became contaminated on Monday night with something that then got transfered only to that one tank? Possible but ...likely? I have difficulty believing that I would not have noticed something as potent as this would need to be to cause this amount of damage even after more than 100% water change. Possible still, but likely, no.

Did one of the first batch of fish die and somehow transfer toxins to the others somehow (perhaps they all ate a bit and died) Not possible because the Rummy Nose I put in last night had no contact with that first batch of dead fish.

It must have been some kind of poison that is strong enough that residual toxins still in the substrate or filter can kill after UV sterilization, 150% water change, four days from onset until now and removal of ALL the fish, ALL the driftwood and MOST of the plants.

Currently the tank is still running with the filters and UV sterilization because I don't know what else to do. I am at a loss. I guess that I will tear it down sometime this week and clean what I can and throw out the rest.

[dan2x38]

OK Brine I ran a battery of tests on the water sample you gave me.

Results: NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0 all excellent results signs of optimal aquarium water. Then tested PO4-off the chart... my kit reads to 10ppm soon as I added the regents it turned dark. Your suppose to wait 3 mins. to read it and wait for full colour. This would be suspected from an overdose of ferts though. I have an Fe kit maybe I'll test that but it takes 30-45 mins. When I have been fertilizing with Tom Barr EI method which is heavy doses of PO4 most I had was 1.5ppm. Is this the problem? I don't know?

You are the link and have the answer buried somewhere... maybe there is someone here can do some real serious testing on this water? I'll keep it just in case.

Remember you can boil the driftwood, rocks... I can help replace some of the plants. When your ready will give you 2 rosey tetras been thinking on getting rid off. Not sure what to do with your substrate you can boil it too I guess? I also have some filter media Ehiem Substrat & some Seachem stuff too. Then stuff filters with pot scrubbers & floss. Can also get you started with some seeded sponges. Also can let use some Potassium Permanganate to clean tank & parts BUT for God's sake rinse all of it off... nothing will live after that! LMK

[Agnate]

You can also clean tank stuff with OxyClean, as it just breaks down into water (and not soap). 

[bergenm]

Just a thought...

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/substrate/593-wooohoooo-my-good-eco-complete-has-arrived.html

[dan2x38]

Doing some of my own research I was reading about tank fertilizing. High levels of PO4 can cause fish deaths so does sudden increases in nitrogen. As in phosphates look at marine tanks & phosphates in nature it kills fish. Your NO3 was low. Let's say you dumped in a large amount of multi plant ferts this contains nitrogen & phosphates. With the low NO3 the sudden large increase in nitrogen can cause sudden fish deaths. It is sort of like pH shock. The nitrogen levels should increase by 1ppm until you reach the disired level between 10ppm-20ppm.

This is a possibility in theory. Flourish would not cause death on an established planted tank with NO3 readings above 10ppm as the fish would be accustom to it - just like fish would be use to pH swings in an established planted tank with CO2. But a newer tank might crash with a large sudden dose of nitrogen & phosphates.

Using the same bucket to fill all tanks if there was a contaminate in there it would have caused issues with all tanks.

[charlie]

Brine try putting some of the eco in a container of fresh tap water, pre test the phosphate prior to adding the eco & then test the phosphates again after a few days.

I highly doubt adding 5 - 6 cupfuls of Flourish to a 75 gallon tank is going to elevate your phosphates that high, just have a gander at the concentration of phosphates in a bottle of Flourish ( it`s on  the label or the Seachem site)

We can also test that by adding it to a 5 gln bucket of water. which will be supper saturated with Flourish.

[dan2x38]

When I tested his water before WCs as soon as I added the regents for a PO4 test it turned black almost. It is suppose to sit for 3 mins. to get a reading. The kit only reads to 10ppm. Usually it is a light greenish colour after the 3 mins.

[bergenm]

I believe Charlie is recomending a controlled test.

The tap water is put in a bucket and tested for PO4, then eco-complete is added and after a couple of days the water is re-tested. If the PO4 has spiked then we know the problem was with the eco-complete and one potential cause of the crash has been identified.

If you are going to run the test it might be worthwhile to have a second bucket without the eco-complete to use as your control.

[dan2x38]

I believe Charlie is recomending a controlled test.

I do release that... I am just stating what I've researched. From what Brian has said there are very few causes? I do know the PO4 was through the roof! That means that the nitrogen had to be also!

On the label of Flourish it says that PO4 is 0.01%. I know this is low but the reading went off the chart instantly +10ppm. On the label N is 0.07% 7x more then PO4. By theory the concentration would be mean that nitrogen would not be just off the chart but shy high.

My hypothesis is since there was no gradual increase in N then the highly concentrated sudden dosage caused shock and all the fish died in a short time. The N was also accompanied with the PO4 sudden high concentration. If you review the facts that Brian put forward what else is there but the overdose of ferts? So far I see no other explanation unless Brian has left something out.

[charlie]

I do release that... I am just stating what I've researched. From what Brian has said there are very few causes? I do know the PO4 was through the roof! That means that the nitrogen had to be also!

On the label of Flourish it says that PO4 is 0.01%. I know this is low but the reading went off the chart instantly +10ppm. On the label N is 0.07% 7x more then PO4. By theory the concentration would be mean that nitrogen would not be just off the chart but shy high.

My hypothesis is since there was no gradual increase in N then the highly concentrated sudden dosage caused shock and all the fish died in a short time. The N was also accompanied with the PO4 sudden high concentration. If you review the facts that Brian put forward what else is there but the overdose of ferts? So far I see no other explanation unless Brian has left something out.

Has it occurred to you that the Eco complete could have being leaching phosphates for quite sometime & could very well explain why it was high.

Is there a possibility that decaying fish will elevate phosphates.

How do you know your phosphate kit is accurate?

Here is short list that can contribute to phosphate levels
uneaten food

plant decay

dying algae

fish feces

dead fish

carbon filter media

aquarium salts

pH buffers

kH buffers

water itself

Here is a link that support my belief that high phosphates is rather harmless to fish, please be advised that phosphates in really high levels can contribute to algae blooms , when the other nutrients are out of sync
http://fish.orbust.net/waterchemistry.html.

[BigDaddy]

four capfuls of flourish in a tank that size absolutely will NOT kill fish

Email Seachem if you want the detailed answer why

[BigDaddy]

Let me make a very simple example that will be more than crystal clear.

Anyone who is dosing EI properly in their tanks is dumping over 10 x the "recommended dosages" of said fertilizers in their tanks than what is on the Seachem label.  If those concentrations are high enough to kill fish, then charlie, myself and thousands of other EI dosers would be killing fish left right and center.  It simply isn't happening.

[bergenm]

Here is a link that support my belief that high phosphates is rather harmless to fish

I am no expert on water quality, and I agree that high phosphates would probably not kill the fish but I believe high phosphates can greatly reduce the total buffering capacity of water which would then leave the tank vulnerable to large fluctuations in the water's parameters, which could wipe out a tank.

I have seen this happen at some of the Super Pets and PJ's Pets and the losses were staggering, mind you the loss in buffering capacity was not directly from phosphates in those cases.

[dan2x38]

I said N spike being the real cause and PO4 a factor. If N is not increased gradually it can cause death.

What are others hypothesis? Read Brian's list of what he did and did not do/use.

PS- waiting reply from Seachem

[BigDaddy]

I put a he'll of a lot more nitrogen in my tank at one shot than five capfuls of flourish.

And I do of three times a week

And in a tank with sensitive fish like discus and rams

So are thousands of other planted tank hobbyists

It wasn't the N or P in the Flourish

[irene]

Brian- you said that the 8 red eye puffers in that tank had been disappearing one by one till you only had one left.  Any chance there were numerous dead and rotting fish bodies in the tank?

Irene

[charlie]

OK Brine I ran a battery of tests on the water sample you gave me.

Results: NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0 all excellent results signs of optimal aquarium water. Then tested PO4-off the chart... my kit reads to 10ppm soon as I added the regents it turned dark. Your suppose to wait 3 mins. to read it and wait for full colour. This would be suspected from an overdose of ferts though. I have an Fe kit maybe I'll test that but it takes 30-45 mins. When I have been fertilizing with Tom Barr EI method which is heavy doses of PO4 most I had was 1.5ppm. Is this the problem? I don't know?

You are the link and have the answer buried somewhere... maybe there is someone here can do some real serious testing on this water? I'll keep it just in case.

Remember you can boil the driftwood, rocks... I can help replace some of the plants. When your ready will give you 2 rosey tetras been thinking on getting rid off. Not sure what to do with your substrate you can boil it too I guess? I also have some filter media Ehiem Substrat & some Seachem stuff too. Then stuff filters with pot scrubbers & floss. Can also get you started with some seeded sponges. Also can let use some Potassium Permanganate to clean tank & parts BUT for God's sake rinse all of it off... nothing will live after that! LMK

Dan , does this not contradict your hypothesis ??

[dan2x38]

OK doubters read what SeaChem says:

I wrote:

I have a friend who dumped a very large amount of
>Flourish in his basic planted tank. It was a 75 gallon
>established for 3-4 months. It was a community tank with
>a maximum bio-load of fish. After pouring a very large
>amount of Flourish into the tank the next morning he woke
>up and all his fish were dead. This time period was
>approx. 10 hours.
>   
>  Is there a toxic level of Flourish? Can a large spike
>in nitrogen or phosphates cause sudden fish deaths?
>   
>  I tested his water for NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3=10 but PO4 was
>over 10ppm instantly after adding regents. This is as
>high as the API PO4 test kit reads and you need to wait 3
>minutes for the reading.
>   
>  Thank you,
>  Dan
>
>       
> ---------------------------------
> Now with a new friend-happy design! Try the new Yahoo!
>Canada Messenger

Hi Dan,

Any product/additive can be dangerous if grossly
overdosed.  It is always very important to follow the
dosing instructions on a product's label.  If too much
phosphate is present in the water, the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect, despite
phosphates not being directly toxic to fish.  Flourish
also contains a trace amount of iron; however, if
overdosed, it may have raised the iron to toxic levels.
We are very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend's
fish, but please stress to him the importance of following
the dosing instructions on the product label.  If you
would like to read more information, here is the link to
the Flourish product web page:

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourish.html

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Thank you,

Tech Support
1076
Tech Support
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650
888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070
seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So they even say it is possible and they make it!

[BigDaddy]

Dan.. your message to Seachem was unclear (you didn't establish the actual amounts and frequency 'ie 5 capfuls once in a 75')

Do the simple math

The guaranteed analysis on a 250mL bottle of Flourish is .01% of available phosphate.  That's a concentration of 100 PPM of available phosphate in it.  You dilute that portion into 75 gallons (283905.8835 mL) of water and you are NOT going to get a concentration of 10 PPM.

Therefore, even if I dumped an ENTIRE BOTTLE of Flourish in a 75 gallon, it would be physically impossible to have a level of 10 PPM of phosphate from the Flourish.

[charlie]

OK doubters read what SeaChem says:

I wrote:

I have a friend who dumped a very large amount of
>Flourish in his basic planted tank. It was a 75 gallon
>established for 3-4 months. It was a community tank with
>a maximum bio-load of fish. After pouring a very large
>amount of Flourish into the tank the next morning he woke
>up and all his fish were dead. This time period was
>approx. 10 hours.
>   
>  Is there a toxic level of Flourish? Can a large spike
>in nitrogen or phosphates cause sudden fish deaths?
>   
>  I tested his water for NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3=10 but PO4 was
>over 10ppm instantly after adding regents. This is as
>high as the API PO4 test kit reads and you need to wait 3
>minutes for the reading.
>   
>  Thank you,
>  Dan
>
>       
> ---------------------------------
> Now with a new friend-happy design! Try the new Yahoo!
>Canada Messenger

Hi Dan,

Any product/additive can be dangerous if grossly
overdosed.  It is always very important to follow the
dosing instructions on a product's label.  If too much
phosphate is present in the water, the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect, despite
phosphates not being directly toxic to fish.  Flourish
also contains a trace amount of iron; however, if
overdosed, it may have raised the iron to toxic levels.
We are very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend's
fish, but please stress to him the importance of following
the dosing instructions on the product label.  If you
would like to read more information, here is the link to
the Flourish product web page:

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourish.html

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Thank you,

Tech Support
1076
Tech Support
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650
888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070
seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So they even say it is possible and they make it!

Dan i`m still a doubter, i think you need to go back & read every posting so far.
For starters i`m of the opinion that you have mis represented the facts to Seachem , thus the answer you received.
In Brine~s revelation of how much Flourish he added , he clearly stated he added at the most 4- 5 capfuls, is that dumping a very large amount in a 75 gallon tank,  not by my judgement, especially since as disclosed in this thread the EI dosing  which myself & others have practiced for a long time is much more concentrated than the 4- 5 capfuls of Flourish.

Secondly did you read this part of the response from seachem

the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect,

It`s totally impossible for that to occur in ten hours, let alone with no lights.

[charlie]

Here are a couple more facts that does not lend any support to the fertilzer theory you so strongly support,
(1) Brine has  indicated that he has since done a 50% water change , followed by a 100% water change, after which he still lost a new batch of Rummy nose, is it still likely that the 4-5 capfuls of Flourish is the culprit ??
(2) Everyone who had their first experience of EI dosing , including you, should have lost their tankful of fish after dosing their first dose of Nitrate, Phosphate & potassium, if you think the 4-5 capfuls of flourish was so potent to drastically elevate Nitrogen to shock the fish. Just some food for thought.
My wild guess as to why the Phosphate was elevated & the Nitrate was minimal , when you tested the tank water after the the massive die off, it is very likely that due to the natural rapid decomposition of fish & the fact that it was a mass die off( Volume of fish)this resulted in the elevated Phosphate readings, whatever caused the die off remains a mystrey, but i suspect something corrosive due to the reaction of the live stock & reaction of the plants in such a short time span.

[bergenm]

My wild guess as to why the Phosphate was elevated & the Nitrate was minimal , when you tested the tank water after the the massive die off, it is very likely that due to the natural rapid decomposition of fish & the fact that it was a mass die off( Volume of fish)this resulted in the elevated Phosphate readings

I believe the PO4 test kits only test for inorganic phosphates so it would not be picking these up as they are organic.

[dan2x38]

People I give up... Seachem said it is possible and their products should be used as recommended. Write them and urge with them... but they already wrote, "as recommended"!

[charlie]

I believe the PO4 test kits only test for inorganic phosphates so it would not be picking these up as they are organic.

I could be way out on left field here , as i do not focus too much on the chemistry of test kits, i very rarely use them  , but as i understood it from API INC. their test kits read total Phosphate Ions, which in my interpetion includes inorganic & organic, i repeat i might be somewhere out there 

[busdriver]

Sorry to hear about your loss, Brine.
Man, that's gotta suck, big time.

[Brine]

Brian- you said that the 8 red eye puffers in that tank had been disappearing one by one till you only had one left.  Any chance there were numerous dead and rotting fish bodies in the tank?

Irene

I found only two corpses of the 5 that disappeared...and that was a week or two before the crash. I've  since torn the tank down and found no evidence of corpses.

[bergenm]

as i understood it from API INC. their test kits read total Phosphate Ions, which in my interpetion includes inorganic & organic

Sorry, I might have been a bit mis-leading with my last post. Yes the test kits will show phosphates from organic and inorganic sources. It's just a question of how decomposed are the phosphates from organic sources as to whether or not they will register.

How it has been explained to me in the past is when animal matter, plants or food decay, they produce 'organic phosphates' - phosphates bound to other cellular material. As the bacteria consumes the decaying matter, the cellular material is broken down and the phosphates are converted to 'inorganic phosphates' (phosphates not bound to other cellular material). It is my understanding that it is only the phosphates not bound to other cellular material that will register on a PO4 test. So the level of phosphates in a tank are always higher than the PO4 test indicates, because some of the phosphates will not register as they are not broken down enough.

My point was that I felt that the fish that had died within the last 10 hours would not have decomposed enough to spike the PO4 test. Now if there were some from a few weeks ago, that might be a different story.

Sorry for the confusion...

[tim_s]

as random as it seems it wasn't random without a test kits during the introduction period just left us blind to a cause.

I am not sure discovering the answer will mean much in the end.

I would just take down the tank clean it out.  Let it dry.  Re-cycle and using a test kit follow any fish introduction for at least 3 weeks if not longer.

[fishycanuck]

Hunh.... always nice to know what happenned.... better call in Mulder and wassisname. 
Brine, let me know if I can help - I can bring seed material, test kits, and a python - and if that doesn't help we can play with the Magic Tracer Thingy and eat cookies.

[dan2x38]

Brian do you need some started plants? I have no spare fish though. LMK

[charlie]

Hi Guy`s , i took the liberty to write Seachm, i want to make it clear , this was not to put down anyone , but more of clarification on the issue & to clear any misconception of  Flourish. Here it goes both my e mail & Seachems reply.



>Friday, September, 5, 2008 at 04:38:38> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------> > comments:  Hi, we have a ongoing discussion in our local >Aquarium club, one of our members experienced a total >loss of all fish & most of his plants, speculation is >rift that one of the reasons is due to the accidental >overdosing of Flourish comprehensive  accidental dose was >5 capfuls, this was dosed in a 75 Gallon.> > This "tank Crash" happened over night as the member said >all was fine before retiring to bed, the next day all his >livestock was dead & the plants began to melt ,changing >color, the water also had a distinct yellow tinge.> He has since done a 50% water change followed by another >100% water change, to his dismay he added some Rummy nose >Tetras, only to have them all die over night again .> > One member tested the Water after the first Tank Crash& >said his findings were as follows>  NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0, except >for the Phosphate which appeared to be off the charts , >since as he added the testing reagent the sample >instantly went very dark.> > Hoping to hear from you ,one member speculates it had to >be the overdosing of the 5 capfuls , a few of us say no , >the 5 capfuls would not be potent enough to create that >reaction in that time span ( 10- 12 hrs & there was no >lighting), plus the fact that there was 2 water changes >since & the same faith was handed out to the new fish.> Regards Errol> >


Hello,It is definitely not the over dose of Flourish comprehensive supplement.  There has to be some other underlying issue.  You are correct the huge water changes also tell that it is more than likely not Flourish.  The fertilizers are very safe and even the dosage on the bottle that is suggested is well under stated just because we know things such as this may happen.  The worst that could have happened from this type of dosing would have been an algae or bacteria bloom from the increased nutrients in the water.  Which would be unsightly and a hassle but not deadly.  There is nothing in the fertilizer that would cause problems for fish and/or the plants.  This product would have to be grossly overdosed to harm animals.  Thank you for the email.  let us know if we can help further with the matter.Seachem Support10202Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Seachem Laboratories, Inc.1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~No message is selected
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Regards