My new 10g tank

[silentdan]

Here is my 10 gal tank.  I'm making it a planted tank with dwarf baby tears, broad leaf ludwigia and java ferns.  So far everything looks good, with new growth being more than what has died off.  I'm using 2x 13w daylight CFL bulbs in my hood and a DIY CO2 system.  I'm fertilizing with API leaf zone.  The lights are on a timer for 12 hours on.  The CO2 is from a 1L bottle with sugar and yeast.

Now it is getting time to put some fish in it.  I'm going to get some neon tetras, but I'm also looking for some cleaning crew.  Right now, the debate is between otos and shrimp.  What are peoples opinions on what would be more efficient at cleaning algae?

Thanks.

[Sharbuckle]

What a great start! Looks awesome

I think shrimp are a way cooler looking cleaning crew.

[exv152]

I'd recommend both otos and amano shrimp.

[sas]

Looking awesome!
How long has your tank been up and running?
Just a suggestion make sure your tank is cycled before adding fish.
Also before adding a cleanup crew you need something for them
to actually cleanup or eat.
Hope that is useful.
And by the way welcome to the OVAS forum.

[charlie]

Hey Dan, nice to see the tank up & running, good start.
They are a few things I would suggest -
keep checking the KH ( carbonate hardness) of the water -  I`m not sure the origins of your rock, but some rocks can increase the KH of the water  which will raise the PH of your water.

I would suggest you significantly increase your plant mass , as it is it is very low & given the lights there is a higher risk of algae issues ,Vallisneria nana or  corkscrew vallisneria would be a great addition in the background.
dwarf sagittaria in front is also another good starter plant, cryptocoryne species is also another great starter plant & comes in several colours & types
http://www.tropica.com/en/plants/plant-list-a-z.aspx
Regards

[Dan]

I also like the Octo/Shrimp combo when it comes to cleaning crew...toss in a few Nerite Snails (which can't reproduce in FW) and you should have a solid crew. La Niche has some...

[Shawn84]

I would hold off on the clean up crew till you start to see a good amount of algae build up. Oto is good but can be tricky to keep alive cause of feeding issues. Shrimp are much easier and once they produce make great additional food for your fish.

[silentdan]

Thanks for all of the helpful responses.

I have had the tank running for the past 2 weeks.  There only seems to be a tiny amount of algae on the plants, so I will wait to add any cleanup crew.

I will keep testing the water quality.  I can go get more plants on Saturday when I do the water change.

Thanks again.

[fischkopp]

Hi there and welcome to OVAS!

Adding to what others said: I would limit the lights to 8 hour, any longer is pushing it and puts algae at an advantage. You should also increase your CO2 reactor to a 2L pop or better 1gal juice bottle. That will help to get more CO2 longer, and even works better if you run two bottles in parallel on alternate cycles.

Good luck and keep us posted on the progress!

[silentdan]

My tank has survived another week.  Things seem to be looking good, with everything growing.  My ludwigia seems to be doing the best of all, with many new shoots and leaves.  It just seems a bit confused, with roots growing out wherever they can.  :p

I've added in some new plants:  vallisneria nana, dwarf sagittaria, cryptocoryne undulata, and what I think is ludwigia glandulosa.  (It wasn't labelled at Al's and for $1 looked interesting enough.)  I've cut back on the lights to 8 hours and have modified my CO2 system to be able to splice in additional bottles.  There has been slight algae growth on two of the rocks, but none on the glass.  I think the rocks are limestone as they have shells inside them.  One is quartz.

I've tested the water several times, and the results have been stable.  Prior to changing the water on Saturday, the pH was approximately 7.5, ammonia at 0.25ppm, nitrite at 1ppm, and nitrate at 0.  The GH and KH averaged out at 6 each.  On Sunday I repeated the tests with the differences being the nitrite level at 0.5ppm and the GH and KH of 5 each.  For comparison, my tap water has a pH of approximately 8.4, with a GH and KH of 3 each.

Thanks.

[Got Fish?]

Looks awesome dan.

[missavgp]

I assume you are fishless cycling. Are you using ammonia to feed the bacteria? I ask cause that ammonia and nitrite level seems low for how long your tank has been running based on my experiences with fishless.

[sas]

Tank is looking great!
A background would help hide wires etc., and make your plants pop.
For your cycle, you could always check and see if there are any other
hobbyists in you vicinity and  ask if they could give you some grungy
filter material. It usually is a replace old with new deal.

[silentdan]

No, I have not been adding any ammonia to feed the bacteria so far.  I'll look at the hardware stores to see if they have any bottles of it.

[charlie]

Hey Dan, can you check your tap water KH & PH( take a fair volume of sample water) when it comes out of the tap- note the parameters - leave the sample out in it`s container with an airstone & recheck the PH & KH 24 hrs or so after & again note the findings, compare the before & after for changes.
Errol

[missavgp]

They have Old Country at home hardware. It has no additives so it's good for cycling

[silentdan]

I've picked up the ammonia from the hardware store and added a few drops of it. I'll slowly get the levels up. Testing tonight showed that it was up at 1ppm.

Are the snails that come with the plants considered to be good things, or pests? The ones in my tank have dark conical shells. I've counted 5 at once and removed what looked like a bunch of eggs.

[silentdan]

The tank looks about the same from last week, so I didn't take any pictures.

The biofilter seems to be progressing along.  It can process the ammonia down in approximately 24 hours.  The nitrite levels are sky high.  The water turns dark purple within moments of me adding the test solution.  The nitrate levels are slowly rising, so it shouldn't be too long before the bacteria can process the nitrite quickly.

My tap water had a pH of 8.4, with a gH and KH of 3.  After 24 hours with an airstone, the pH had dropped quite far (I want to say 7, in all the records I have been taking, this seems to be the one I missed).

[missavgp]

Cool, your tank should be cycled soon then, another week maybe for it to be stable. watch out for a PH crash though. I found when I started getting really high nitrite readings, my PH would bottom out at less than 6. It's the only time I use PH up so that I don't start losing bacteria to the low PH and slow the completion of the cycle.

[exv152]

I wouldn't worry too much about the pH in a fishless cylce. The only time low ph becomes an issue for beneficial bacteria is when it reaches like 4.5, which is unusual.  I have some fish I keep at 5.8/5.9 ph with no risk to the beneficial bacteria.

[silentdan]

Things are moving along nicely.  After I cleaned the tank and did a pwc today, I did a test for the nitrite and nitrate levels.  Nitrite is still off the chart, but the nitrates are up around 80ppm.  The pH is still in the 7.6 range.  Soon everything should clear up and be good for fish.

I've put in some root tabs in an attempt to get the plants growing a little faster.  I'm also experimenting with changing the fertilizer schedule.  Instead of one dose a week of 5mL, I'm going to try 1mL a day.  I've spliced in a 2L bottle into my CO2 system and am using CO2 supplements.  The vallisneria nana seems to be growing well.  I've been trimming it down so it does not just lay on the surface of the water at the top.  I'm planning on trimming my ludwigia when it gets a little taller so I can use the cuttings to fill in that corner of the tank.

[silentdan]

I just got back from a week and a half vacation.  Thankfully the tank is still here and Cthulhu had not taken up residence.  It needs a bit of cleaning though.  I tested the water chemistry, and there was no ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.  I dosed it up with ammonia, so I'll be able to see if everything is working properly and I had not just set myself back to the beginning.  The snails are out in force though, so I'll be picking up some assassin snails to get rid of them.  I'll be getting some shrimp to help with the clean-up.  It would appear that some of my dwarf sagittaria did not have a good time, with some of the leaves looking rather dead.  Still, some others look quite well.  My java ferns appear to be in the process of multiplying, and my ludwigia are looking like they need to be trimmed.

[missavgp]

I don't think you set yourself back to the beginning. I had the same problem. When the Nitrates get too high, the API test kit can't read them and it reads as zero. I thought that something had gone wrong, but when I did a 70% water change all of a sudden the nitrates were reading at 40 ppm. I recommend doing a water change to see if that helps. then add some ammonia and wait an hour to see if it goes back to zero.

[silentdan]

I didn't set things back to zero thankfully.  I added ammonia for two days and it all was converted away, showing the tank had completed its cycle.

I've added in 11 neon tetras and 4 amano shrimp (taking advantage of bulk discounts).  Everyone seems to be doing well.  The shrimp have claimed the cave as their territory, and are slowly cleaning the the surrounding area.  Only the biggest shrimp seems to be interested in wandering around the rest of the tank.

I seem to be having slight issues with my vals and sagittaria.  They look like they are not getting enough nutrients, with entire blades dying off on the sagittaria and the tips of the vals turning yellow and red/brown.  I've stumbled on to the information that my API leaf zone is only iron and potassium, so that is a likely reason why.  I have placed flourish tabs in the substrate, but it appears I will have to get some proper liquid fertilizer for the water column.  I tested the water today and there were no nitrates, so the plants must be consuming what is produced.

[silentdan]

Things seem to be continuing along well.  I chopped all of my ludwigia in half and filled in the left side of the tank.  The neons and shrimp seem to be happy.  During last week's cleaning, I must have startled the shrimp by rattling the top rock on their cave, because they have abandoned it and taken up residence in the ludwigia forest.  Two of them molted, so life must be good for them.  They are less skittish.  I just wish they would spend more time eating the algae in the rest of the tank instead of picking up every grain of sand in their corner.  I'm debating adding more of them.

My source of frustration this week has been my CO2 system.  I was using dymonic sealant to seal the air lines to the bottle caps and the dymonic just would not stick.  I'm pretty sure that I drilled the holes just a hair larger than I should have, so they don't seal on their own.  I've covered them all with crazy glue now, and will just have to wait for recycling day to find more bottle caps if my issues continue.  I currently have 1x 1L and 3x 2L bottles on the go.

Does anybody have any experience with the eBay 'DIY' kits?  I don't plan on switching over to the acetic acid/baking soda system, but their purpose made bottle caps look interesting.  With the amount of fighting I've been doing with mine, they seem to be a good idea so long as they don't break.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/DIY-CO2-System-Kit-Generator-Part-Bottle-Cap-with-Tubes-for-Planted-Aquarium-D9-/370966184017?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&var&hash=item565f4ec051&_uhb=1

This week's mad science experiment will be the placement of my CO2 airstone.  Currently I just had it sitting at the bottom of the tank.  The experiment will be to place it in the filter media bag in my HOB filter.  The logic is that the bubbles be forced to go through the filter media to get to the atmosphere, increasing the time they will be in the water, and the filter water flow will increase how much CO2 is dissolved.  I have read that splashing pulls the CO2 out of the water, but I have my water level high enough that there is no splash coming from my filter.  I have a CO2 indicator, so hopefully that can give me an indication of the success of my experimentation. 

[exv152]

My source of frustration this week has been my CO2 system...Does anybody have any experience with the eBay 'DIY' kits?  I don't plan on switching over to the acetic acid/baking soda system, but their purpose made bottle caps look interesting.  With the amount of fighting I've been doing with mine, they seem to be a good idea so long as they don't break.

Pressurized co2 is where it's at. No caps, no dirty fermentation mixes, no switching out new batches every two weeks, consistent supply of co2, and it can last over a year with a 10 lbs tank. Once you go pressurized, you won't go back, and there are plenty of folks in this forum that have first hand experience to advise.

[charlie]

I agree with Eric, most people have 2 concerns when going pressurised co2 system - start up cost & safety, on the safety aspect the risk is way less that you having a fire in your home. On the start up cost - with Patience & some research you can do a very basic pressurised set up for around a 100.00( used beer regulator & 5 or 10 lb bottle) same running set up of the diy sugar & yeast but no headaches.
Regarding the citric acid system  some of us saw a demo of it & my opinion is if this kit was around when I use to daisy chain 5x 2 L pop bottles I would have used this in a flash - last longer , more consistent co2 delivery and the added luxury of controlling the co2 delivery.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-DIY-CO2-system-with-CO2-pressure-guage-and-check-valve-D301-/151083529807?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item232d47b64f.
Errol

[silentdan]

Yes, the main concern I had with the pressurized system was the high initial cost.  I never thought of using beer regulators.  A quick look showed that they were much less expensive than the ones specifically made for aquariums.  I'll keep my eyes open to see what I can find.

[dbl_dbl]

Milwaukee regulators are inexpensive as well.

[exv152]

You can get a beer regulator for $50-$75 online. Then just put the rest together at your leisure.

[sanny]

You dont need a pressurized co2 for a 10 gallon.. I used an air line T valve connected to a bubbler in the past with a DIY co2 and it worked great.

[charlie]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/271345516654
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xwznXQ2TRW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1d6n5YBFeE

[silentdan]

Well, this week was interesting.  Last Monday I started using the seachem macro fertilizers.  I need to work on the dosage as the most noticeable growth has been in the algae category.  I think I've managed to get every type possible.  I'm currently holding back on adding more fertilizers until I find out how to get the proper dosage for my tank.  Reading about nutrient deficiencies seems to suggest that I'm low on nitrogen, but I can't get any results on my nitrate tests (the bottle says that is what I'm adding).  I've even tested a mix of 2mL tank water to 3mL tap water to see if it is a case of the readings going off the scale.  Occasionally I get blips on the ammonia test, 0.25ppm one day, nothing the next.

Yesterday the amano shrimp were demonstrating their cleaning abilities by gobbling up algae as fast as they could, so I'm willing to attribute the ammonia blip to their waste.  They cleaned off one of the rocks, but they still have a long way to go.  They all have molted at least once.  I'm going to get another 4 when I can find them on sale again.

I have a minor issue with bga and what could be the beginning of bba.  I'll start with a blackout after I add the final batch of shrimp.  The logic on waiting is that since it is a bacteria, the new shrimp could be carrying it and reintroduce it to the tank.  I've been manually removing it wherever I can get it.  I'm down to 5 hours of light per day.

I've added 3 oto cats on Friday.  They are still a little timid, but every now and then, I see them sucking away on the ludwigia leaves.  They commonly hang on the glass, but never in an area where there seems to be algae.  I gave them an algae wafer on the basis that since they ate it in the store, they might like it again, but the big shrimp barreled over from the other side of the tank and claimed it.

The neons seem to be doing well.

The plants are growing, but seem to be having issues.  The ludwigia look the best, with nice and thick leaves.  They are sprouting roots everywhere, which one site suggested was due to nitrogen deficiencies.  The baby tears are expanding, but are taking the brunt of the bga, and look to be filled with an algae resembling cotton.  Java ferns are also growing.  They are getting covered in hair algae and some of the new leaves are looking transparent.  The vals are doing alright, other than some odd coloration.  The undulata seems to be doing well.  It has a range of colors, so I'm not sure what constitutes as healthy.  It's sneaking runners under the sand across the tank.  The dwarf sag seems to be taking the worst beating. It seems to want to expand as fast as possible, but many of the leaves are very transparent and bright green.

Adding my air pump to my CO2 system seems like it could work.  I'll give it a try the next time I need to switch out a bottle.  Currently the CO2 readings are on their way down after their initial spike.  I should have appropriate levels according to the pH/kH test.

Thank you for the additional information about the CO2 systems.

[silentdan]

Things have gotten back to normal.  The massive algae burst must have been due to the overload of CO2 from my system.  I gave the tank a thorough cleaning last weekend, and this week it has been free of algae.  Now with the clean tank, extra shrimp are no longer a priority.  I put in the heater that I got with the tank and upped the temperature to 74 degrees from 68-70 degrees.  The plants are quickly filling in.

I attempted splicing an airpump into my CO2 system like sanny suggested, however I wasn't impressed with the results.  Just looking at my CO2 indicator, the resulting levels were on the low side.  I also found the bubbles to be rather annoyingly loud, so I only had it on when I was at work.

All the fish seem to be doing fine.  One of the otos is a little wired.  Occasionally when I go near the tank, it goes flying as fast as it can to the other side.  The 'thunk' of it hitting the glass is rather loud.  I'm trying to control the snail population by teaching the shrimp to hunt them.  It's a mad dash to grab the remains after I squash them, but so far have not taken the initiative to get them on their own.

For a final addition to my tank, I'm looking at getting a betta.  I should have sufficient space for all the fish to live without pestering the others.

[silentdan]

I've had a busy few weeks, so I've fallen behind on the updates. 

I got a betta from missavgp.  She seems to be doing quite well and getting along with everyone else.  All of the fish seem to be growing. 

The plants all seem to be doing quite well.  I need to get in there with a machete to clean out some of the growth.  When I get enough free time, I'm going to uproot all of the ludwigia, chop off the tops, and replant them.  They are currently in the process of growing diagonally across the tank.

The only issue I'm currently facing is an outbreak of BBA.  I think it came about from a weekend of having the lights on all day long, and potentially my CO2 levels dropping.  I'm sure some overfeeding has helped in that regard, as the shrimp don't seem to interested in it.  So far the plan of attack is manual removal with the ludwigia replanting, increasing the frequency of changing my CO2 bottles (from 1 bottle a week to 2 bottles, out of 4 total), and large doses of the API liquid carbon.  I read that using the Seachem equivalent was recommended to combat it, so I'm working with what I have.

[fischkopp]

Your tank is doing pretty well! The plants look very healthy.

I cannot spot any BBA, but there appears to be a bit of staghorn algae. That is pretty easy to deal with, so you are lucky. BBA is not so much fun. I usually find staghorn in new tanks, where nutrient and light are abundant, but CO2 is not quite at the level required. So fixing your CO2 issue will likely take care of the issue. Also make sure there is sufficient circulation to get it everywhere in the tank. You can remove big pieces of staghorn easily, and you will see it fading away quickly as the conditions in the tank get better.

[exv152]

The plant growth looks really good. As mentioned, the algae is probably related to an inconsistent co2 supply. That's fairly common with diy co2, and the fact that you're adding liquid carbon is probably keeping a lot of other algae at bay, but I would focus on improving the co2 supply. There are some really easy quick fixes to bba but you're better off getting to the root cause of the issue without applying band-aid solutions. Just my two cents.

[silentdan]

Thank you for the advice fischkopp.  Looking at staghorn algae on Google images, it matches what I have in my tank.  I've trimmed away the parts that were worst affected, and the vals that were growing in front of the filter to improve the circulation.

I made the time to replant all of my ludwigia.  That was an ... interesting activity.  I pulled them all out by the roots, and chopped off the tops and any nice looking branches.  Putting them in, and getting them to stick down was a bit of a fight.  When one popped up a while after I finished, I inadvertently ended up having to get them all planted again, as I would dislodge one as I planted one.  I think I managed to get them down.  The tank has a nice layer of grey dust over everything.  Something has been chopping my baby tears up (I think the shrimp are cleaning them a bit too thoroughly), so I planted the floating chunks as well.  I ended up doing 2 water changes of about 75% each time.  I'll have to give everything a good vacuuming next week when everything will hopefully have established some roots and nothing will float away on me.

[silentdan]

Well, in almost a month's time, my ludwigia are looking like they need another trimming.  The grasses are getting to the point where I'm trimming and replanting their runners to keep them out of the field of baby tears.

My algae problems are slowly clearing up.  The guys at gotfish talked me into getting a pair of siamese algae eaters.  Their addition has not seemed to cause any problems.  I may not have succeeded at training the shrimp to eat the snails, but they may have developed aquaculture on their own.  It certainly looks like they are just trimming the algae down to about 1mm from the plants and moving on to the next strand, as opposed to eating it completely.

The snails seem to be getting more common, and it looks like they have been eating the leaves on my red mystery plant.  I got a pair of assassin snails to sort them out.  Hopefully they can put a dent in things.

[daworldisblack]

Wow - its really coming along great! Looks awesome when it all fills in eh? Hats off to getting that HC carpet going!

[charlie]

Impressive indeed, just think this is the result of you doing your home work & it`s your first planted tank - the possibilities are endless.
I remember the first day we meet & chatted.
Great work.
Regards

[silentdan]

Thank you.  The advice I have received has been a great help.

[silentdan]

I think the assassin snails may have exposed my tank to ich.  On the weekend, one of the neons was jammed in the corner between the glass and the plants.  I thought it was dead, so I tried to pull it out with my planting tweezers.  It wiggled away, but looked to have some sore spots on it.  I thought it had just gotten into a fight with something.  Now, today I see that it has two little white spots on it.  None of the other fish seem to have spots on them.  I'm going to try pick up some medication at the store.

Other than that, the tank seems to be doing well.  I trimmed the plants down again and replanted the tops of the ludwigia.

[silentdan]

Well, I had my first casualty.  Last night I picked up some API ich medication.  I gave them a half dose, as per the bottle.  This morning I did a quick head count and came up short.  The sick neon was on the bottom.  It was still alive, but the big shrimp wasn't being that choosy and eating it from the tail.  It took a bit to convince the shrimp to let go of it's treat.  I put it in a glass for observation, but it was too far gone, missing it's tail and numerous chunks out of it's body.  I'm continuing with the dosage as per the bottle.  It calls for a second dose in 48 hours, and a water change 48 hours after that.  The other fish do not appear to have any sores on them, but I'm considering doing a second treatment after the water change.

I've yet to see any dramatic snail liquidations, but the piles of empty shells on the ground is increasing.  The assassin snails seem to spend a lot of time on each other, so I imagine they are trying to breed.

[fischkopp]

Sorry to hear. It's never fun to loose fish. I don't think it's an ick outbreak though. Usually with ick you will have quickly more than one fish affected. It also appears as smaller white spots, only if there are many they clump up to bigger sized ones - at which point you will see the whole body being covered. To me it looks like a fungal infection; maybe the fish got some scratches when he was jammed, which got infected ?

[silentdan]

It is certainly looking like it was just an isolated incident.  None of the other fish have shown any possible symptoms.  I gave the tank a second half dose to complete the treatment just to be safe.

[silentdan]

My tank is still going strong.  I've gotten to the point where I've had to start removing plants so they don't take over.  I've ran out of places to put the ludwigia, and the vals are sending runners everywhere.  The baby tears are going along nicely.  I'm not sure if they are getting pulled out, or if they are trying to spread, but I seem to get a lot of them floating on the top of the tank.  I just collect them and jam them back down into the dirt.

I'm pretty sure I have lost another 2 fish.  I had one really bad looking neon that I can't see any more.  It had gone grey and patchy, lost most of it's colors, and had a kink in it's spine.  None of the other neons look like that, so hopefully it isn't the plague.  I also think I lost an oto.  They have taken to hiding in the very thick vals, and I've only been able to see two at a time.  I'm guessing with the shrimp and assassin snails, bodies won't last very long.  Still, everyone else seems to be happy.

[silentdan]

Today was another machete job with the plants to bring them back under control.  The undulata looks a little small, most likely all of the ludwigia and vals were blocking the light.  The patch of baby tears also seemed to be getting insufficient light and the shaded parts were lifting off of the substrate.  My red mystery plant still causes me headaches.  It just doesn't grow as fast as the ludwigia and has a tendency to melt.  I have one good stem of it, and a few more smaller stems.

There may have been a bit of friendly fire between my assassin snails, as one looks like it has parts of its shell dissolved away.  I can only see one oto, so I may have had another loss.  My shrimp are being optimistic though.  Either nobody has told them they can't breed in fresh water, or they have decided that life will find a way, but two of them are carrying around some eggs.