Help! Velvet disease!

[Amy]

I just found out I have velvet disease in my 210g tank. I thought I only had a minor case of ich from my blue tang.
I'll start at the beggining.

I set up my 210g about 5 weeks ago, didn't went through a cycle, the liverock was old and I took water from 2 set ups that were running at home already. I introduced my first fish about 3 weeks ago, it was a small puffer, he's still alive and doing great. Next fish was my blue tang and a coral beauty. Blue tang was really stressed and developped ich later along with the coral beauty. The ich seemed to have went away, it was only a few spots and I already battle ich from time to time in my other set ups, just a few spots is nothing to be alarmed I thought.

I had a naso tang in my other set up who was being quarantined, it had no ich and was eating great, I decided to add him to the 210, along with my purple tang (I've had him for a couple of months, I knew he would be fine) I know I have ich in my 60, but none of my fish have it.
After I introduced the naso tang and purple tang, I noticed the coral beauty started getting ich again.. or so i thought. It wasnt ich after all, it was velvet disease. First time I see this, I didnt know it was that common. I'm not sure from who it came from, I don't have that in my 60g. I don't know if the blue tang has this, or ich, or both, he doesnt show signs of velvet, but he has some white spots, but it's really minor.

My naso tang died yesterday, had no ich, was eating like a pig, I noticed 3 days ago he had a black spot on his right side. The spot grew bigger and yesterday it looked like he had a lot of mucus coming from his spot and gills. I tried to treat with melafix/pimafix, I thought it was fungus but it was already too late. Coral beauty died this morning. Now I have my purple tang, blue tang and puffer in the sump. Also have the chromis and a small cleaner wrasse. They all look great, except for the blue tang who has a couple of spots, I can probably count them, it's not that much. He hasnt changed color, he doesnt have that mucus layer on him, he's eating agressively and he's not breathing fast.

I want to treat the fish, preventing them from getting the disease. I have a 60g with healthy fish that I don't want to add any more fish too if I have too, except the purple tang.
I also have a 33g that is empty that I could fill up to treat the fish, I could take some water from the 60.

What's the best way to proceed?
If I take out my purple tang, I can't put him in the 60 cause he might be carrying that disease right?
Is treating with copper the best way, or should I try the no light method?
Is there another safe way of treating them, like medications that would be safe for the 210 (i have corals and inverts in there)?
I don't want to lose any more fish and I'd like to run the 210g fishless for a couple of weeks, maybe months even, whatever it takes to prevent a crash!

Thanks for the help

[NjOyRiD]

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/general.cfm?general_pagesid=83

I would use Cupramine in a Qt tank and restart your tank

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw9Ub2naMpY

[Amy]

Thanks phil

[kole18]

I would change a water & lower your salinity or separate those fish has infected basically.

[Amy]

I can't lower the salinity in my tank, I have corals. I'll remove all my fish and try the copper treatement in a 33g (I don't see any velvet disease symptoms on the fish I have now, except the blue tang that has minor ich)
I'll go fishless for a couple of weeks, change all filters, add one fish, see how it goes. If it happens again, I'll tear everything appart, start a new system completely.
I hope it doesn't come to this though! I don't have a lot of room for everything...

Something bad just had to happen!

[az]

I think you went too fast, treat them with copper(i like coppersafe over cuparmine)and keep display empty for 3 weeks atleast.

[kole18]

I would catch my fish 1st of all & separated to QT, than lowering the salinity. Hey I've done it before somewhere between 0.21-0.22 my corals seems ok. But your tank is way too new, really needs to recycle 1st. It's better to run it atleast a month, if your in hurry or something i would add bunch of LR's for a new tank so that way a quick recycle. But to save your livestock I would separate all those fish has got ich or marine velvet. I's just got a powder blue yesterday its got a bit ich, az told me got ich problem. this fish now in my 40g QT probably stay for atleast a week or so more than if this fish gets well asap put in my main tank. So far this fish its eating well, I soak a garlic into fish food & fish really like it i can tell. I think its the smell of garlic makes those fish attracted to eat

[Hookup]

I don't know much of anything about Velvet, but here is some info I gathered on ICK.

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=40916.0

i hope it helps.

[mmaisonneuve]

I've done the Hyposalinit Treatment on that Blue Tang back in Dec 2011 and Jan 2012 and it worked like a charm...one thing.
Bring it down to 1.010 slowly....like 1 degre per hour....no more. And when rising back up no more than 2 degre per day.....this takes a lot of time but hey ! it's complitely safe for the fish.

[mmaisonneuve]

Symptoms

Most similarly symptomatic to Brooklynella, Oodinium organisms primarily attack the gills first. At the onset of this ich infestation fish often scrap up against objects in the aquarium, lethargy sets in, and rapid respiration develops, which is the result of excess mucus in the gills due to the invasion of the parasites. This is typically noticed as fish staying at the surface of the water, or remaining in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.

As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.

Now in the advanced stage of the disease the production of gill and body mucus increases, the fish becomes listless, refuses to eat, and it's not unusual for a secondary infection to develop. For fish that reach this end stage of the disease, it's typically too late. They usually do not respond to treatment, and most often will die.

Most Effective Treatments for Oodinium
•Remove all fish from the main aquarium, give them a freshwater dip or bath, and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication (shop & compare prices) per the manufacturer's product instructions. To address complications from secondary infections, also treat the fish with an appropriate antibiotic or anti-bacterial medication. Continue treating the fish in the QT until the ich appears to be gone, and then keep treating for another week after that.

•Unfortunately, Oodinium can withstand a broad salinity range (from 3 to 45 ppt) so Hyposalinity is not an effective treatment

[Amy]

Thanks for the info guys.. I didn't buy the copper, I hate using chemicals so I'll try the hyposalinity instead. I read on the velvet disease a little.. it looks like it's easier to get rid of than marine ich, and the life cycle can be accelarated if you raise the temperature. Do you guys think it's a good idea to keep the fish at a higher temp while doing the hyposalinity treatement? and 4 weeks should be enough?
I bought garlic guard just in case the blue tang stops eating, right now everybody are eating agressively, I hope it stays this way. I have my 33g set up, I have some prime to help with ammonia if it builds up in there and all I need to do is catch those fish.. the fun part!
I want to make sure the fish are cured cause I will be putting them back in the 60g after the treatement, not the 210 and I have some other fish in there.

Hookup: Love your post, I've read it before but I'll read it again just to refresh my memory!


I'm pretty sure the velvet disease came from the coral beauty... I just don't know why it didn't show up earlier and it attacked the naso tang first, he looked like he was the healthiest of all. I would have thought the symptoms would have shown up the first week or two on the coral beauty. Velvet is so much different than ordinary ich, it's like ich on steroids! Can't believe how fast it killed my tang.. I didn't even have time to figure out what he had. After this experience with this disease, I'm going to keep the 60 as a QT for another year at least.

[Amy]

Symptoms

Most similarly symptomatic to Brooklynella, Oodinium organisms primarily attack the gills first. At the onset of this ich infestation fish often scrap up against objects in the aquarium, lethargy sets in, and rapid respiration develops, which is the result of excess mucus in the gills due to the invasion of the parasites. This is typically noticed as fish staying at the surface of the water, or remaining in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium.

As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.

Now in the advanced stage of the disease the production of gill and body mucus increases, the fish becomes listless, refuses to eat, and it's not unusual for a secondary infection to develop. For fish that reach this end stage of the disease, it's typically too late. They usually do not respond to treatment, and most often will die.

Most Effective Treatments for Oodinium
•Remove all fish from the main aquarium, give them a freshwater dip or bath, and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication (shop & compare prices) per the manufacturer's product instructions. To address complications from secondary infections, also treat the fish with an appropriate antibiotic or anti-bacterial medication. Continue treating the fish in the QT until the ich appears to be gone, and then keep treating for another week after that.

•Unfortunately, Oodinium can withstand a broad salinity range (from 3 to 45 ppt) so Hyposalinity is not an effective treatment

Oh yeah I forgot why I had chosen the copper treatement first.. I read that paragraph, it's on about.com! But i went on other sites that said the opposite.. I don't believe much in a freshwater dip, like Hookup described, it's only gonna get rid of the parasites that are at one particular stage..
Okay, I guess it's back to Copper.

[mmaisonneuve]

Oh forgot !

Get a tank with nothing in it ! like no gravel nothing.....copper trace can remain even after a good clean up. And get ready for daily water change since in that QT tank you will have very little filtration.........remember biological filtration will not work with Hypo and Copper treatment.....

When I did my Hypo treatment I purchased a bucket of cheap salt (IO) and used it. You could also just get a used tank that you can keep to do the treatment.

[Amy]

Yeah I know, I have my 33g which will never serve as a fish tank, I'll only put some pvc pipes in it for the fish to hide, barebottom will be easier to syphon anyway. I have some aqua clears too I can use with just the sponge. Instant ocean salt is a great idea, I'll buy a bag tonight.

Thanks for the reminder!! I completely forgot why I had chosen to go with copper at first, I would have tried the hyposalinity treatement before jumping to that for sure..

[mmaisonneuve]

No prob

good luck and keep us posted.

[bt]

IIRC, copper will impact the bacteria in the sponge, won't it?

[Amy]

you mean the sponge in the aqua clear? I will only use it to trap debris and rinse it every day + water changes. It's also to help with the flow in the water...

[Hookup]

I would not raise the temp personally... i get the benefit of trying to get the fish healthy faster, but it might cause additional stress... i believe it's a coin toss but I'd not do it myself.

[bt]

I think most people who are medicating skip the sponge and use filter floss or some other chemical filtration in the HOB filters to achieve that.

The point of a sponge is to give the nitrifying bacteria somewhere to colonize.  If you're not using it for that, there are other things that will do the job you want better.  Just make sure you get something that won't filter the copper out as well.

[Amy]

the only thing I have at home are the aqua clear yellow sponges and some filter foam, the white soft foam you put in a eheim or fluval canister filter... will that do? It's only to help with the accumulation of big debris like uneaten food, I'm still gonna do water changes.
How much water should I change by the way? Is it better daily, or once every 2-3 days? what percentage approximately?

[bt]

Honestly, I'd probably just run it without the sponge.  I'd rather leave uneaten food floating in the tank until I go to siphon, and not risk the sponge trapping decaying matter that didn't get rinsed out.

Have some Prime or Amquel on hand too, just in case.

[Amy]

Alright, no sponge it is!  I bought Prime too, I had a hunch it would have been something useful...  Thanks again for the help!

[bt]

Just remember that if you're dosing Prime, most ammonia tests will not be accurate.  They will show the combined ammonia (toxic) and ammonium (non-toxic) levels.

[Amy]

Okay so I should only dose when the tests show up bright red then?

[Hookup]

you should consider water changes of 10+ gallons every two days.  This is important for two reasons, first it keeps the water awesome, which helps the fish... and second, it forces a habit of checking salinity very frequently.  If your salinity creeps up, even for a day or two, at least with ICK you're starting over on the 8 week treatment.

8 weeks @ 10gal every other day is 28 water changes or 280gal of salt.  Instant ocean should work just fine during this process so that $50 for a 200gal box and a bit more... maybe $65 of salt and some use on your RO/DI system.


Another word of caution is "Calibrated Refractometer". Ok, two words.

[moused]

you should consider water changes of 10+ gallons every two days. 

if it's a new tank set up without it being cycled.  There will be a lot more water changes then that.
I found with my QT tank controlling the Nitrates was very difficult.  I had to do a 90% change every 2 days to control the nitrates.  But once the bacteria builds up then it stabilizes.
I still have to come up with a method to get that QT tank up faster.  I heard that you just keep filter media (unused in qt tank) in your sump. then you can use it on the qt tank with the bacteria from your display.
I was also thinking of some sort of reactor filled with bioballs that I clean and put back into the sump once i'm done with QT (assuming I don't use copper)

Anyway...QT is a fantastic method on getting rid of Ick.  Nothing but success with this method (low salt and higher temps)

Note: I also heard that Velvet is species related.  ie if your tang has the velvet then your clowns wont' get it. (just what I read back in the day.)

[bt]

Okay so I should only dose when the tests show up bright red then?

You need a test that can measure free ammonia levels.  I know the Seachem "MultiTest: Ammonia" as well as their "Ammonia Alert" badge will do that.  There may be others as well.

[Hookup]

if it's a new tank set up without it being cycled.  There will be a lot more water changes then that.
I found with my QT tank controlling the Nitrates was very difficult.  I had to do a 90% change every 2 days to control the nitrates.  But once the bacteria builds up then it stabilizes.
I still have to come up with a method to get that QT tank up faster.  I heard that you just keep filter media (unused in qt tank) in your sump. then you can use it on the qt tank with the bacteria from your display.
I was also thinking of some sort of reactor filled with bioballs that I clean and put back into the sump once i'm done with QT (assuming I don't use copper)

Anyway...QT is a fantastic method on getting rid of Ick.  Nothing but success with this method (low salt and higher temps)

Note: I also heard that Velvet is species related.  ie if your tang has the velvet then your clowns wont' get it. (just what I read back in the day.)

There you go.. it's even worse than I thought...Even with IO salt, it could easily be over $100 in salt costs... time, etc...  this is just another rock on the pile as to why I never QT for fish related problems... what a huge tax pain... (HR block commercial reference)

Flame me now... i don't QT.

[mmaisonneuve]

Amy keep it simple.

Aquaclear is fine just put cheap filter floss (go to walmart get a large bag of the polyester stuff for blanket...it dirt cheap) change it every day...it's a QT tank you could not care less for denitrifying bacteria.....no sand bed not live rock just plastic pipe for hidding.

10% water change.......is the way to go. I was doing it every day...but it's a pain. I guess you could do it every 2nd day.

Water test......what for your changing the water (10% every day or so) don't worry.

do you treatment....bring them back to the healty side.

Once done with the treatment.....keep doing water change for 2-3 week with new water....then slowly bring water from the other tank for the water change....and again wait for a couple of week to see if the fish get sick. Under no circumstance you can add Live Rock or Sand in that QT tank. Once you are sure they are ok.....move 1 fish in the main tank and wait 1 week before moving a second one and so on.....this way you will ensure that nothing wrong is going on. If they get sink again bring them back.

Yes it's a lot of work but hey....tossing them and getting a new one would be to easy.....there is nothing like a good challenge.

[Amy]

There you go.. it's even worse than I thought...Even with IO salt, it could easily be over $100 in salt costs... time, etc...  this is just another rock on the pile as to why I never QT for fish related problems... what a huge tax pain... (HR block commercial reference)

Flame me now... i don't QT.

lol.. I don't QT  either, I didn't really believed in it (for ich most importantly) I still got my 60 running as a sort of QT but it's only to monitor the moorish idol.. I can overfeed without worrying about killing my acros. But now that I've seen what Velvet does do the fish, I really hope I won't have to deal with this again in my life... My naso tang had no flesh on his back for an entire day and I couldn't do a thing! I couldn't even catch him to finish him off...

I know I'll have to deal with ich all my life.. even if you think you don't have it, it's always going to find a way in your tank. That's my opinion... I work harder to make the fish feel at home and make them eat, then I wait for the ich to go away... Of course you may lose a fish or two, but you can also lose them while QTing too. It's still as stressful, if not more.

Anyway, thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it.

Of course I will try your method MMaisonneuve, I prefer curing them for sure. Buying another purple tang and hypo tang wouldn't be an easy thing to do, and not only because of their price range, but because I love them, no fish is replacable.

I'll go with a small daily water change, i'll test if I have too, I have the filter foam thing you're talking about. Doesn't look like a complicated process to me, and 4 weeks is not that bad. The blue tang's ich is almost totally gone today, I can only see like 5 spots, so that's an even greater news compared to what he looked like 2 weeks ago. I'll take it slow and observe the fish closely, and hopefully it will disappear completely.

I'll keep the 60 running longer and quarantine the futur fish for sure... at least if I have to treat them after, they will be easier to catch in the 60 than the 210! It's almost impossible to get the purple tang lol...