Dead snails, happy shrimp, distressed fish.

[morrom]

howdy all,

As the title of the post suggest I have a pickle on my hands.
I set up a new tank about 6 weeks ago now, every thing seems to going all right they water is cycled and nice and clear. Nothing wrong with the water peramiters, I have been doing spots checks twice a week since i set the tank yup.
Tank specs.
Tank: 26G Starfire glass show tank 24"X16"X16".
Filter: Ehime Classic 2215, with lily pipes for the in and out takes.
Heater: ETH In-Line Heater 200W
UV Filter: Turbo-Twist U.V. Sterilizer 9W In-line.
CO2: 10LB Cylinder, dual gauge reg with needle valve and solenoid. Glass bubble counter, and glass ceramic diffuser. Glass Drop check.
Lighting: Two Hagen Duel buld T5ho 24" 24 Wats . Total wattage 96wats.
Stand: Custom, with aluminum top.
Substrate: Netlea brown substrate

After a fight with some algae (still on going !) I decided it was time to start adding some animals to help deal with the problem. I started with zebra snails every thing seemed fine no issues, then added a bunch of Amano shrimp still no issues. Then all of a sudden all the snails died with out warning... The shrimp are still going about there happy shrimp business, the snails not so snaily any more  . I then decided to add a few fish to the tank, but apone introducing them to the water things didn't look so hot. the fish swam to the surface and stayed there seeming to gulp air (pick the fish out he is doing fine). I backed the CO2 thinking that might be the problem but I got the same results a day later...
What gives...?! Shrimp are sensitive to water conditions if they are ok how is every thing else not doing so well...?
HELP PLEASE!!!

Trevor

[dan2x38]

Sounds like zebra nerite snails. They like harder water so the CO2 could be an issue. A bigger issue might be it is a new tank and little for the snails to feed off of. The temp. can also be an issue since nerites like a cooler tanks. All these combined could be the cause or just one... of course guessing. I add zebras in tanks but never one with injected CO2. I love these snails by the way a fav.

[sas]

Can you provide your water parameters?
I've heard of snails dropping the ph drastically
and crashing a tank.

[morrom]

Just did my water test and...

PH: 6.4
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm

hmmmm?

[dan2x38]

Is this a recent setup? I see the nitrate (NO3) is zero as other nitrogen components ammonia (NH3) & nitrite (NO2). This usually points to a new cycle or one that is not yet finished cycling. If this is the case  NH3 and/or NO2 spikes can kill off anything especially inverts. High NO3 will also kill shrimp when the molt.

The pH is low for nerites. They usually do best well above 7.

[morrom]

Yes The set up is newish, been about 7 weeks now since I set it up. I have been doing water checks about twice a week since the set up and the levels of NO3, NH3, and NO2 have been steadily dropping. And have been at the current level for a while now.
An update I originally put  7 snails into the tank and found 5 of them dead the other 2 just showed up and seem to be fine.
I try adding fish to the tank again last night and it was a no go still the same behaviour, to the top of the tank gulping for air  ... Could the O2 be low? There isn't much surface agitation, could this be the problem?

[dan2x38]

What is the tank temp? Cooler water has more O2. Your cycle isn't done. What have you been feeding the bio-filter (nitrogen cycle) with if no fish in there?

In a new tank snails likely did not have enough food on top of a couple other things?

Research fishless cycling? Where are the fish now? if they are in a safe place put the snails in with them. Then start a fishless cycle.

[Fishnut]

Are these Zebra Nerite snails?  

If so, they seem to need A LOT of algae to eat in order for them to survive.  I had been buying a lot of these guys over the past few years and I finally figured out how much they ate.  I found out one day when I put 3 in a tank that had a lot of algae on the glass and they had cleaned it all up in less than a week...that was only 3.  I have never been successful in keeping them alive by supplementing their food with wafers, but I haven't tried the lettuces or zuchini.  That might work.  I figured out the balance for my tank.  I have a tank that gets enough light to keep them happily grazing on algae on the glass...I only scrub the front of the glass...they also seem to munch on decaying wood and dead plant leaves.

Good luck!!

Sorry, I just noticed your comment about the fish.  That's very odd!!  There should be no reason why they are at the top of the tank like that if your water parameters are as you posted!  How old are your water test kits?  Perhaps getting a second opinion would be beneficial.

When you set up the tank...and I'm sorry if this is a silly question...did you put a water conditioner in?  What kind was it?

[morrom]

The tanks temp is 25 celcius.
I used Tetra safestart after reading from several sources that it helped a lot to help move the tank cycle along figured I would give it a try. Before using it the tanks NO3 NO2 were very high, not liveable conditions for anything. After I used it the levels dropped and every thing seemed to be fine I added my Betta to the tank. He was quite happy in the tank, I pulled him out and place him in this own little tank he is a bad tank mate! He likes to think my shrimps are snacks... No "FISH" they are not food...!
As for food for the snails to eat there is more then enough in the tank I added them to help deal with the algae issues I am having, the shrimps are going crazy with so much to eat.
I have a 12G tank that I have been running for months and months now its very stable. That is were I have my fish for the time being excluding the betta for reasons mentioned.
Yes I am using water conditioner, as for the brand name I am not sure as I am not home. Would there be one you would suggest using?

[Fishnut]

I use Aqua Plus because I can over-dose without risk of harming the fish.  Lots of people use Prime because it's highly concentrated and a single bottle goes much further than any other brand.  BUT there can be consequences if you over-dose because of the ingredients in the conditioner.  Often the city will add more chloramine to the water after it rains a lot or something...which means that the recommended dose is not longer enough.  Confusing...I know.  This is why I use aqua plus...I can double dose without worry.

When you get home, make sure your conditioner removes chlorine and chloramine.  We have chloramine in Ottawa...which is chlorine bonded with amonia.  It doesn't go away easily

This is just one idea...unfortunately, there's a few things you might have to go through before figuring the reason out.

#1 Make sure you're adding the right kind of conditioner...likely you are if you're using it on the other tank with no issues.
#2 bring a sample of the water to get tested at an aquarium store.  I know Big Als does it but I'm not too sure where else could do that for you.
#3 Investigate the decorations you used in the tank.  Perhaps something is leaching something into your tank?

[morrom]

Thanks for the ideas, I will look into that as soon as I get home.
I use the same Water conditioner in both my tanks, and the 12G tank is doing just fine. I am careful with the conditioner and make sure I am as close as I can get to the right dosage. Come to think of it Aqua Plus sounds very familiar, just might be the brand I am using.
I will bring in a sample of my water to Al's and see what they have to say...
The tank doesn't have much in it dwarf hair grass, Utricularia graminifolia, Blyxa J, Xmass moss, substrate, a few rocks (the same rock used in my 12G tank). So I don't think any thing is coming from those items but one never really knows...

[dan2x38]

Prime will treat 10 gallons with just 1 mil. An entire capful (5 mils) treats 50 gallons. It is safe to treat x5 as per vendors website. Many folks here use it and a standard water treatment technique is to treat x2 for the entire tank volume even if doing just a 20% water change. This way you are covering for any extra chloramine added for run off by the City.

One thing if you are using a test kit that uses nester reagent it will give false readings due to the break down of the ammonia and chlorine from the chloramine. Getting it tested by another source is always a great idea. Second opinions are very valuable.

[magnosis]

Oh wow this is an interesting read.  I have just lost 5 of my 7 nerite snails in the last month, wasn't sure why.  The pond snails and MTS are doing fine, and fish are doing great too.  Water params are within reason, GH is low and KH is high.  This is a CO2 injected tank so that could explain why the Nerites didn't make it.

[morrom]

Thanks Dan I am going to switch conditioners I think, and take up the habit of the X2 dose over the total volume of the tank when I do my WC's starting this weekend.
Well at first I though ALL the snails died, as there was a mass die off the next morning when I looked in the tank I never did find them all tho. I have recently seen 2 of them moving about and they seem to be happy.
But this still doesn't explain why the shrimp are happy and the fish hate being in the tank.
Last night I removed some of the water to let the Lily pipe break the surface to help agitate the waters surface a little to see if that would help. I was thinking that maybe the O2 levels are low in the water, but its a planted tank so it seems unlikely that's the issue but it cant hurt to test the theory.
When I get home tonight I am going to trying placing a fish in the water and see what happens.

[drboeing]

Trevor, Ive got nothing to help you resolve your problem with the gulping fish, tho we have 1 out of 10 yellow labs who seems to do it in our 90 gallon tank quite often, while the others all seem happy.  My Cherry Shrimp (yours too) are stunningly hardy, while Im glad they are doing well in the tank, I wouldnt count on them to advise you of the condition of the water.

Interesting thread, Im hoping to hear it all ends well for you.  Dr B and I had a heck of a time with our first setup and we got creat advice from the forums. 

[morrom]

So another update.

On sat I decided to give the tank a good cleaning, I was having MAJOR problems with hair algae in the tank it was matted down in the hair grass really bad. So I trimmed the grass rather short and went to work cleaning it out, this went rather well and the tank now looks pristine. The next morning I awake only to find that my Amano Shrimp all died over night 15 of them the tank look like a crime scene !!! They were in the tank for 2 weeks give or take a few days...
I did nothing different with the tank, other then removing the mass amounts of algae that was in the grass. Normal WC I do every Sat doubled the amount of Conditioner I was using in 26G X2 = 52G SO I dosed for 50G, I added some Seachem Flourish Excel , and Seachem Flourish Trace (both recommended dosage) which I have done before...
I also brought some water to a LFS on Sunday after the incident and had them test the water for me as well, just to make sure it wasn't my test kit giving funny readings. Nothing wrong there either every thing was fine, Low PH but I already knew that.
I am at my Wits end with this tank, I cant put my finger on what's causing this. Any other suggestion guys?
Thanks for all your help so far.

PS. there is nothing in the tank, all my Shrimp and fish are in my 12G tank which is 100% fine and doing very well.

[fischkopp]

Hi Trevor,

Sorry to hear about your trouble. Some thoughts:

I had never luck keeping Nerite snails in tanks with CO2 injection over a prolonged period. I can only guess, but it seems to me that they would either die because of CO2 overdose, higher nitrate / trace element levels or eventually due to the acidic environment, that will dissolve their house.

If fish is gasping shortly after being introduced to a CO2 injected tank than it is most likely that the CO2 in the water is too much for them. Try adding the fish right after a larger water change and monitor them while the CO2 levels slowly build up. This will give them some time to adjust. If they start gasping again when the CO2 saturates than you have to back it off a bit.

About the sudden death of shrimp: A major cleaning with removal of lot of plant mass is going to change the water dramatically. Suddenly, all the stuff you are adding will stay longer and with higher concentration in the water. That might have had negative affects on the shrimp, that really prefer water with less additives.

My understanding is that you are using a specialized plant substrate. I am wondering if it is necessary to dose the tank at all since it is only running for a few weeks. There should be still plenty of nutrients stored, any added nutrients will only accumulate in the water to become an algae feast and worse. Juts as an example: You have seen my 55gal; I had it running for at least half a year before I started to supplement nutrients. During the year the tank was virtually algae free, it started to appear only when I had to start supplementing and tried to achieve a balance.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[dan2x38]

+1 agree the additives might have been the cause... Nitrate is death to shrimp especially during a molt! Nitrate can wipe out an entire tank and as mentioned a large pruning can cause an imbalance. I did this once in a 75g tank and lost a large amount of my bottom feeders, an expensive fancy pleco and some other dwarf fish worth $25 each (5 of those). the bottom feeders are more sensitive having less scales or fewer.

You can test you CO2 level in a rough way to get a baseline. 1 hour before your lights out while CO2 is still running take up a cup of tank water and test the pH. Sit the cup aside for 24 hrs and then test it again. Subtract the the first reading (lower one) from the later one. Multiply each point by 3 i.e.  7.3 - 6.3 = 1 * 3 = 3 * 10 = 30  So the CO2 is approx. 30 ppm. That should be your high level.

Other thing do you turn off CO2 at night? Plants create CO2 at night. I used a timer to turn mine off and even used a timer to turn on an air pump with bubble wand at night to create better gas exchange. I was able to keep ammano shrimp in the tank this way.

[morrom]

At this point I don't know what to do. With no animals in the tank I am back to square one, thing seem to be running me in circles making it hard to put my finger on it.
As mentioned I added the ferts to the tank before with the shrimp, actually I did quite a few times. Why this time was different then the others I don't know... But I feel the same way I think the additives might be my culprit.
I have a CO2 drop check in the tank, but I think it might be giving a false reading. The fish at the top of the tank normally is a indicator of an O2 problem but in a planted tank that seems strange to me. You can see pearling from the plants constantly.
I am going to take your suggestion and when I do my WC this weekend I am going keep the CO2 off and see the reaction of the fish when put into the tank and there reaction as I slowly turn it up.
My CO2 is off at night its on a timer and set to come on and off with the lights. I am taking a serious look at an air pump any suggestion on a good model? I like your idea of running it at night as well I want to keep the tank clean looking.
Thanks again!

[fischkopp]

Why this time was different then the others I don't know...

It's a wild guess, but it be that the reduced plant (and algae) mass plays a role in it. Maybe together with some decaying plants?

The fish at the top of the tank normally is a indicator of an O2 problem but in a planted tank that seems strange to me.

That is correct. Two things are important here: at night, plants will actually consume O2. In heavily planted tanks this could be a lot of consumption. So if fish is having trouble right after lights come on the tank will need extra aeration over night. Secondly, high CO2 concentrations in the water will inhibit the O2 uptake over the gills of the fish. This means that although there is enough O2 in the water, the fish will start to suffocate and show signs of O2 deficiencies. Some fish that prefer high O2 levels (like plecos) will be impacted before others.

I am taking a serious look at an air pump any suggestion on a good model?

I find Tetra Wisper models are pretty quiet.