180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[Dakotamay]

We set up  our new 180g tank on December 31st. Everything has been going fine. It went through a small cycle. We had moved our entire 75g contents, fish, coral and inverts to the new tank.
Here's a timeline of events

Monday the 16th of Jan I lost my citrinis goby. I didn't think anything of this as he had never really thrived and eaten well. He was skinny and not eating well again. So, wrote it off to that.

Wednesday the 18th. Lost my Lamarck Angel. This fish didn't show any signs of stress or anything out of place at all. It ate that morning. I came home that afternoon and found it breathing heavily lying on the substrate, whithin a couple hours was dead.

Tuesday the 24th. My vlamingi, orange shoulder and blue tang (Dory) hid all day. This was extremely strange and out of character for the 3 of them.

Wednesday I left the lights off to alleviate stress. The fish were still not looking good last night when I went to bed.

Today, Thursday the 26th. The orange shoulder and blue tang are dead. I can't find the vlamingi. My midas blenny is almost dead, as is my mandarin. I'm sure it's only a matter of hours. My red marble scooter is unaccounted for as is my tail spot blenny.

Accounted for are 3 dispar anthias, 2 sebae clowns, 2 picasso clowns, red firefish, purple firefish and McKoskers wrasse. Another interesting thing, I have some nas snails also dead on the substrate.

Through out this entire time I have been testing the water 2 or 3 times a day and have had all 0's reading for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. I even took a water sample to Forty Fathoms in Gan to see if my test kits were off.
My salinity is stable at 1.025. I use a Tunze auto top off. The RO water is stored in a 25g tank below the main tank beside the sump tank. There is a 400g/h Koralia in there to keep it circulated.

I really can't figure out what is happening. There were no new additions right before this happening. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. I did change lights but I don't think it would have a ripple effect this many days later. My nems are clearly not happy either.

I have pics of the deceased if you would like them posted to see if you see anything at all.

Many many thanks in advance to all who brainstorm here with me. I need to figure this out.

[Dakotamay]

Also forgot to mention a little more detail about the set up.

Here goes,
180g display
50g sump
Vertex In180 skimmer
sock where the over flow, flows into the sump
1 bag of Vertex bio pellets in a reef octopus bio pellet reactor
carbon in an MR1 reactor
396 return pump
closed loop running a dart 4200g/h
3 1050 koralia
80 pounds live rock from the 75g (all in the 50g sump)
260lbs eco rock

Also forgot to mention that I inoculated the tank with bacterias while starting up. It was Zeo Bak.

Hmmmm, not sure if I'm forgetting anything. I'm just so upset right now. Hope this more detailed system info helps.

[bt]

Some brainstorming:

Any chance of heavy metal poisoning?

What do you use to test the salinity?  Have you calibrated it recently?

Check the TDS on your RO?

You mention the fish and the nems, but how are the coral looking?

Any chance the skimmer overflowed at some point?

Pictures might help to see if there are any visible signs of infection.  So far though, it sounds like you've got something toxic in the water that's doing the damage.

[bt]

How's the water temperature?

Any visible signs of aggression?

[Dakotamay]

Hi bt,
Thanks for taking time to brain storm.
No the skimmer didn't over flow. I have it drain into a 2l pop bottle.

As for heavy metal poisoning, I don't think so. I only use RO/DI water. We just replaced all the cartridges in it. Ran it the normal half hour to rinse them all out. Then made up the RO/DI water for auto top offs.


I use a refractometer to test salinity. It was checked for calibration. All is good. Also matches the refractometer that Jim uses at Forty Fathoms. He tested everything yesterday and all came up good.

Jim just checked TDS yesterday too. Read 0.

Corals aren't too happy either. Not completely closed, but not their normal selves.

Temp doesn't range anymore than a degree. The reef keeper lite is set to control the 2 400w heaters. 78.5 with hysteresis of .5. The tank stays at 78.3 lowest, so heaters don't even come on. Highest is 79.3

None of the fish were aggressive. The tangs all went in at the same time and got along great. Never witnessed them fighting at all. Even the red and purple firefish get along. Usually swim right by each other. The two pairs of clowns each have their own nem at opposite ends of the tank and again went in at the same time. They never go near each other.

I'm baffled. How could I test to see if it's heavy metal poisoning?

[bt]

Are you supplementing anything?

Have you checked the temperature with a separate thermometer?

Any chance of stray voltage?

Anything else you've tested for? (PH, alk, phosphates, etc)

It definitely sounds like a water quality issue of some kind though.  Unlikely to be a parasite or virus if fish and corals are being affected.

[bt]

There are also test kits for metals - Iron, copper, etc.

Here's a good article on dealing with them, though light on the testing for them part (waring: very in depth): http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php

[brotherluv]

I am very sorry to hear about your loss!  Hopefully the folks here can help you figure it out...you used the water from your old tank? 

[Dakotamay]

No not supplementing anything. The only thing I'm doing to raise my PH is running a bubbler outside with the lines into the sump. I have stale air in the winter I guess lol. The PH has only been raised by .2 by doing this.

Yes, temp is checked by the Itemp on the reefkeeper and I also keep a 2nd digital in the sump tank. They are both spot on at 78.4.

I have had that in the past, would get shocked every time I put my hand in the tank. That's not happening so I'm going to say I don't think so.

As mentioned above. PH was at 7.75 and staying when lights out. I confirmed this with a second PH reader (pen like instrument) It read .2 higher than what my reef keeper is reading. So, I slightly calibrated it a tad low. Now PH when lights are out is 7.82. With lights on it's around 8.1.
Haven't tested alk, or mag. Never have. Calcium is 440. Phosphates are 0 as well. Had Jim test those yesterday too.

Nothing foreign was introduced to the tank. No new equipment. No new fish or corals. I can't figure this out.

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. I am thinking from my frantic reading that this is cryptocaryon. If so I need to get up to Jims again today and get proto marin coral to treat.

I'm about to upload pics. I'll post them in a few minutes. Please stand by.

Thank you so much for your help.

Are you supplementing anything?

Have you checked the temperature with a separate thermometer?

Any chance of stray voltage?

Anything else you've tested for? (PH, alk, phosphates, etc)

It definitely sounds like a water quality issue of some kind though.  Unlikely to be a parasite or virus if fish and corals are being affected.

[Dakotamay]

Pics













I also have these on my glass. Never seen them in my nearly 2 years of having a saltwater tank.

[rgauvin]

I also have these on my glass. Never seen them in my nearly 2 years of having a saltwater tank.

*NM* I am now not as sure about them being hydroids... GL, I hope you get it sorted out without any more losses. I'm 3 weeks into my SW hobby and I am petrified of my inevitable first crash...

[kole18]

I think you got those parasite from clownfish or fungus that infected all your fish, this happened to me a couple of years ago it started on my clown & slowly passes it all to tank mates. you should QT those fish all have been infected if you don't this will kill all your fish , if your water it's all in right level then isn't about your water is the issue here. This is exactly what happened to my tank before it started with pair of clownfish & it killed all my fish I was new to this problem i didn't even bother to separate those fish have been infected all. I can tell your clownfish has a fungus all over it's body those white cloudy thing around your fish those are fungus, I'm not sure or I read this on RC's they say to take this out from your fish you should dip it to r/o water for few sec to washout all those fungus. I'd never try it but they say it works well sorry about what happen to your tank I knw how you feel same what happened to me before & I hope went everything ok after all this problem goodluck.

[moused]

Do you have a QT tank?  I would pull the fish and get them into some clean water.  See if they improve in the new water.

Sounds like something harsh in the water column.  prob is what.  Sounds like your loosing your sensitive fish first.

Recommendations:
have you tested your Nitrates and ammonia with another test kit?
have you scoured the tank in case something got knocked in (like a penny or razor blade) - hence people asking to test for copper.
Is that Ick I see on some of the photo's?? (maybe you just went through a heavy cycle of ick-that would kill at this level)

questions:
do you have a sump? (how are you managing oxygen)
do you have a cucumber in the tank? (poison)
have you added any new anemone's? (stung)
is there any white puss/fuss on any of the animals? (fungal infection)
are you on city water or well water? (contaminated well)

[Dakotamay]

The clowns aren't new. So, I don't think that anything came from them.  I might have figured this out. I can't find a copper test kit around Brockville.
Here's what I think:
We bought a used 25g tank for our RO/DI auto top off water storage. It came out of a pet store when it shut down. I am not sure if the tank was used for freshwater, I think it was. I'm thinking that they may have possibly dosed copper into that tank at some point while they had it. It would make sense. In theory. The tank has only been up a month. I've done 1 water change on it. The rest before that was auto top off. Slow acclimation to the copper. Til it got too high for them to stand. Stressed, getting infections and dying.
We're not taking any chances. The 25g is being drained as I write this. New, I mean brand new going into it's place. I've also picked up Proto Marin Coral for treating the now ich conditions to alleviate that from the fish. Over the next 6 days I'll be doing the Proto Marin treatment at which time it requires a 30% water change on the 6th day. So, if it is copper, over the next 6 days, there will be clean auto top off water going in to dilute if there is any copper. Then a big change to take out the meds and also remove some more of the copper.  This should help.
I'm not even sure it is copper. I'm just thinking it makes sense.

Thanks all for the condolences. Our fish will be sadly missed, especially our Manny (mandarin) He was a special guy. Would beg at the glass for pellets by showing me his belly lol. He taught the red marble scooter to do this too.  Of the fish lost so far. This fish was the one we had the longest.

I think you got those parasite from clownfish or fungus that infected all your fish, this happened to me a couple of years ago it started on my clown & slowly passes it all to tank mates. you should QT those fish all have been infected if you don't this will kill all your fish , if your water it's all in right level then isn't about your water is the issue here. This is exactly what happened to my tank before it started with pair of clownfish & it killed all my fish I was new to this problem i didn't even bother to separate those fish have been infected all. I can tell your clownfish has a fungus all over it's body those white cloudy thing around your fish those are fungus, I'm not sure or I read this on RC's they say to take this out from your fish you should dip it to r/o water for few sec to washout all those fungus. I'd never try it but they say it works well sorry about what happen to your tank I knw how you feel same what happened to me before & I hope went everything ok after all this problem goodluck.

[Severum]

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

[Dakotamay]

No, I don't have one as I only buy from one shop. Forty Fathoms in Gan. I trust everything that comes out of there. I've never had a problem in 2 years. They are all quarantined in his tanks first.
I know many will give me heck for this. But, it's worked for us. The only thing we've ever had an issue with was ich when bringing in a new tang. Normal, almost always happens from stress. Tangs are ich magnets.

Yes it seems something is in the water. If you read the post above that I made you will see my theory.

Yes, again if you read my posts above. I took a water sample to Jim and he tested for just about anything we could think of at the time. Ammonia, nitrate, Nitrites, PH, Calcium. I don't even remember them all. Oh, phosphates, TDS. Tested it all.  Everything checks out.

Nothing could of fallen into the tank. It is completely closed off.

Yes, if you again read above. We have a 50g sump. We have a vertex in 180 skimmer. Running a bubbler outside to the sump for fresh outside oxygen. 3 koralia 1050 power heads, a 4200 gal per hour closed loop. There's lots of oxygen lol.

No cucumber or new nems. Just the two we've always had.


We're on well water. But, as mentioned we run all the tank water through an RO/DI unit and that filters in that unit were all just replaced last week as they were a year old.

Do you have a QT tank?  I would pull the fish and get them into some clean water.  See if they improve in the new water.

Sounds like something harsh in the water column.  prob is what.  Sounds like your loosing your sensitive fish first.

Recommendations:
have you tested your Nitrates and ammonia with another test kit?
have you scoured the tank in case something got knocked in (like a penny or razor blade) - hence people asking to test for copper.
Is that Ick I see on some of the photo's?? (maybe you just went through a heavy cycle of ick-that would kill at this level)

questions:
do you have a sump? (how are you managing oxygen)
do you have a cucumber in the tank? (poison)
have you added any new anemone's? (stung)
is there any white puss/fuss on any of the animals? (fungal infection)
are you on city water or well water? (contaminated well)

[Dakotamay]

Here's what's interesting. Before all this started, we added a new scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp. It died within hours. Also, our peppermint shrimp has been MIA for a while now in the new tank.
Our larger blood shrimp and skunk cleaner are fine. Could they have built up a tolerance as the copper level slowly raised through auto top off? maybe, I don't know.
Ultimately I'm grasping at straws here, because there is absolutely no indication from any testing or reading I've done to tell me what is going on.
If it is copper. Can't it become toxic if too much? I would think so. I'm not sure if that's what's happening, but I've now removed that 25g used tank and it's water is down the drain just to be safe.

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

[NjOyRiD]

There is a 400g/h Koralia in there to keep it circulated.

itds al lyou have in there for circulation?

[bt]

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

Yeah, copper is used to treat ich.  Above trace levels it would kill the corals and the inverts, but not the fish.  Other heavy metals (like iron) might do the fish in (which is why I suggested the possibility), but I don't know for sure.  There might be levels of copper high enough to hurt the fish, but the corals and inverts would all be completely dead by now if that were the case.

[Rybren]

Do you have any Bio-Marine Poly Filter?  If so, run some on your tank.  It will remove copper and some heavy metals.  It will also turn green if there is copper in the water.

If you don't have any, Big Al's usually carries it.  Some other LFS may also have it in stock.  I have some that I could give you, but unfortunately, I'm in Orleans.

[NanoSF]

Did you use substrate from the old tank?

I am +1 on it not being a copper issue. No way the snails/shrimp survive and the fish die.

[Dakotamay]

That's all that is in the 25g of RO/DI water to circulate it.

The display has much more lol.  If you read through again, you'll see there is plenty.
Closed loop with a 4200gal per hour dart on it.
3 koralia 1050's in tank as well. I think they have lots.
Also a 396 gal per hour return pump

itds al lyou have in there for circulation?

[Dakotamay]

Rybren,
Unfortunately I don't have any. I am an hour away from you. Wish I was closer. That is a very generous offer on your part and very much appreciated.
We have no salt water equipped stores near here. Closest is Jim, Forty Fathoms in Gan. 40 min drive. Next is either Ottawa or Kingston.

Do you have any Bio-Marine Poly Filter?  If so, run some on your tank.  It will remove copper and some heavy metals.  It will also turn green if there is copper in the water.

If you don't have any, Big Al's usually carries it.  Some other LFS may also have it in stock.  I have some that I could give you, but unfortunately, I'm in Orleans.

[Dakotamay]

No substrate from the old tank. It was sold with the old tank.  Yup starting to agree with everyone the more research I do. It's not copper. But what the heck it is. I'm stumped.

Did you use substrate from the old tank?

I am +1 on it not being a copper issue. No way the snails/shrimp survive and the fish die.

[Saltcreep]

In reading through this entire thread the only thing that sticks out for me is the fact that all the filters in the RO/DI unit were changed recently and that the old ones were over a year old. I am nowhere near an expert on marine tanks or the chemistry of saltwater, but could that be food for though for those more knowledgeable.

[bt]

A full list of what parameters were tested might help narrow it down.

Did you cure the eco-rock at all?

[Hookup]

Looks like ammonia. 

[moused]

ok...so no other tank other then your display.
I disagree on the ammonia (if he's tested with 2 different kits)

Kinda curious that your not loosing your inverts. I'll be curious if you loose another batch of fish in a week or so (if so then I'd point to a parasite cycle like ick - inverts don't get ick, trust me the second cycle of ick is a massive killer)
How many inverts have you actually lost since your fish started dying?

recommendations:
So do a massive water change to dilute whatever the toxin is.
Get rid of that used tank that you just added.  For if they used it as a QT tank then who knows what's imbedded in that silicone and leaching into your display.

If you still think it's Toxin's remaining after the water change then maybe put a power filter on it loaded with carbon.

what are the list of items you changed in the 3 weeks prior to your first fish dying?
Edit: sorry you just moved tanks..went back and read.

When did you move the fish across to this tank? after the cycle? so just recently?(stress which spiked the ick? and you just saw the second cycle of it.)
What is your tank temperature at?

[Dakotamay]

No the eco rock was rinsed and put in dry.

Two ammonia kits have read 0 two different days. I can't see it being ammonia.

I can't see the RO/DI unit filters having anything to do with this. Anyone else?

The main things that have been tested are

Ammonia 0
Nitrates   0
Nitrites    0
Phosphates 0
TDS         0
Calcium   440-450
PH           7.9 lights out, 8.1 lights on. It was lower than this. I added a bubbler bringing fresh air in from outside right to the sump and this raised the PH. It was at 7.75 at it's lowest. I know it isn't anything to do with the PH because this was happening before that.

No additives or dosing at all. I've never had too.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Hopefully we'll figure this thing out.

I'm about to dose Proto Marin Coral for the relief of the ich. Not the root of the problem, but will alleviate the fish some and hopefully let them get stronger again.

I need to find the cause of the stress.

[Dakotamay]

I have lost some snails and crabs too. Maybe 4-5 that I've noticed. A couple nas snails and a couple reg snails. 1 or 2 crabs.
I'm about to dose Proto Marin Coral for the ich.

I'm going to do the water change after the Proto marin treatment. I'll have to do a 30% water change after it. Which is 60 gals.

We didn't just add the used tank. It was put into the new system when we set it up on the 31st of December. I have removed it now.

I'm going to change the carbon in the carbon reactor for when I turn it back on on days 2,4 and 5 and onward.

Items changed in the 3 weeks prior. Pretty much the whole tank lol. We upgraded from a 75g to this 180g on December 31st.
Now, in the time the new tank has been up. We switched out lights. Went from LED's, to MH, Moonlight and T5 Fixtures. This caused too much of a heat issue. So after about 4 days, they went back and we put back our original LED strips and added another strip.
The power heads messed up so one had to be taken out and serviced and is now back in.
I added our last quarter bag of bio pellets, which were soaked in RO water over night to the pellet reactor. Added some bacteria to the pellet reactor to seed the new pellets a bit.  I don't think there's anything in that. But, I may be wrong.

ok...so no other tank other then your display.

Kinda curious that your not loosing your inverts. I'll be curious if you loose another batch of fish in a week or so (if so then I'd point to a parasite cycle like ick - inverts don't get ick, trust me the second cycle of ick is a massive killer)
How many inverts have you actually lost since your fish started dying?

recommendations:
So do a massive water change to dilute whatever the toxin is.
Get rid of that used tank that you just added.  For if they used it as a QT tank then who knows what's imbedded in that silicone and leaching into your display.

If you still think it's Toxin's remaining after the water change then maybe put a power filter on it loaded with carbon.

what are the list of items you changed in the 3 weeks prior to your first fish dying?

[JetJumper]

I would have to agree there is something in the water.  Do you run OZONE or anything like that?  What are you using for testing kits?   

You do have phosphates, but even if it were 1 it shouldn't effect fish like this.  The tank is pretty new as well so it might not have had a chance to fully cycle.

[moused]

Proto marin will not cure ick (not sure where you got your information on this)...hyposalinity or copper is the only way to kill it (proven and tested)
I personally use Hypo...works really well.

the Addition of new bio-pellets is interesting.  Not sure if it's a factor.  Mixed reviews online on issues getting new pellets introduced...
but the fact that you show no cycling with your tests pushes me away from the bacteria cycle and more towards toxicity or parasite.
even if it stopped cycling..and your nitrates and ammonia are good then it wouldn't kill the fish(IMO)...

[bt]

If it wasn't cycled though, there wouldn't be multiple tests coming back with 0 ammonia/nitrite.

What brand of salt?

[NewReef]

With only 80 pounds of liverock and 250+ of ecorock I don't believe the tank has even begun its cycle process. Having test results of 0 mean nothing if the cycle hasn't started or cheap kits are used. Big volume of water means the cycle can and will take time to start.

[bt]

Having test results of 0 mean nothing if the cycle hasn't started or cheap kits are used.

For nitrite or nitrate, it can mean those things.  Not for ammonia.  A 0 for ammonia, with fish already in the tank, means:

The cycle is "complete" and there is enough beneficial bacteria present for the bioload of the tank to keep ammonia below toxic levels, or the test kit has gone bad.

Fish have been in there for over a week - if the cycle hadn't started, not even a cheap test kit (that hadn't gone bad) would read 0 ammonia.  They've tested the water with 2 kits and both read 0 ammonia.  I doubt both have gone bad.

[brotherluv]

Did you use the water from the 75g tank you replaced?

[NewReef]

Its only been 26 days since setup. My 550g (total volume) took 35-40 days before ammonia was detectable, and I had used about 400 pounds of live rock and maybe 100 of base. It should show some ammonia level now that a few fish have died in the tank.

[Dakotamay]

Ok, to catch back up with the thread and many thanks for everyones support and ideas. The questions are great too. We'll figure this out.

There seems to be some confusion regarding set up and introduction of fish etc, from what I have said already in the thread.

Here's a bit better time line. I hope.

December 27th
Brought the tank home. Got it set up on the stand. That was about it given getting that done was a chore at 600lbs for the tank alone. It has 3 ceramic rock walls glued to the back wall. They were previously live. Died obviously in transport and before water went in etc. So now base rock.

December 28th
Worked the day to do the corner rock works. Glued all into place etc.

December 29th
Same as day before only on the center rock structure.

December 30th
Began filling the tank. I had used our new 50g sump tank to have new salt water made. It was heated to 78.5 degrees and kept there consistent. 10lbs of live rock and bacteria were added. I also had a koralia 1050 in for circulation. This was up and cycling since December 1st ish. I also had another 50g tank that I had done the same thing with as above. Exact same thing with heater, rock and power head. Added bacteria. This gave me 100g of somewhat cycled water. Not perfect, but not completely new water. I also had a 25g with water, no live rock, salt etc. Just fresh RO/DI water. We ended up using all this water along with the water from our 75g which was about 100g to fill this one.

December 31st
Finished filling. The water from the 75g was the last to go over. We moved the fish and corals over. Live rock was moved to the 50g sump tank from the 75g display.  The fish and corals have been in the tank since this day.
We added around the 10th of January an orange shoulder and vlamingi. I'll get to that a litttle further down the timeline.

Jan 1st to Jan 5th
All is well.

Jan 6th
I had been testing the water for any spikes in trates, trites or ammonia that would indicate a cycle. Today I found ammonia at .50. We're cycling. Not good. I had Prime on hand. I added a dose for 200g and all was well. Ammonia remained around the .50 mark.

Jan 7th
Ammonia still about the same. Starting to read nitrates around 5ppm. Never did get any nitrite readings through this time.

Jan 8th
Ammonia down to .25, trates at 10ppm. Still adding Prime to ensure that nothing gets too high that we lose fish, corals or inverts. No losses and no one is stressed in the slightest.

Jan 9th
Ammonia down to 0 and nitrates at about 20ppm. Stopped adding Prime. Still no one is stressed and no losses. I am during this whole time from December 31st to now adding Zeo Bak to start the beneficial bacterias up with so much new water.

Jan 10th
Our orange shoulder and vlamingi came in. Our levels were the same and so we decided to go ahead and bring them home. Again no one was stressed, no losses etc. No Prime. No bacterias added. Let the tank start to stand on it's own two feet so to speak.

Jan 11th to 16th
all was well.

Jan 16th (My birthday)
Hubby and I find my citrinis goby stuck to the power head. It was stuck in reverse. The reason I mentioned that a power head was removed for service in an earlier reply.  I didn't think anything of this, because the little guy never really did do well in the 75g and was very skinny again now in the 180g and wasn't really eating. He'd pick. I chalked it up to him starving himself to death. Yes, him. I feed on a normal routine the tank 4-5 times a day. Small amounts that they consume within minutes. No waste. I have 3 dispar anthias that require loads of food a day. Most meals consist of NLS Thera +A pellets. Once a day frozen, either Marine Fusion, blood worms, mysis or vitamin enriched brine. I like to mix it up for them. I have a gorg who gets cyclop-eeze daily. The fish like it too.

Jan 17th-19th
All is well.

Jan 20th
All was well that morning. Went to town for errands and came home to find my Lamarck's Angel on the substrate breathing heavy. She had been fine when I left, ate, swimming acting normal. A few hours later, on the substrate almost dead. A few hours later and she was dead. Body removed. The citrinis body was removed the day it was found dead as well.

Jan 21st to 23rd
All was well. Nothing out of the ordinary. Daily water tests showed that ammonia, nitrates were at 0's now and the nitrites remained 0. Never ever got a nitrite reading.

Jan 24th
The three tangs, blue tang, orange shoulder tang and vlamingi tang all hid all day. Wouldn't come out to eat or cruise the tank.
Tested water, again all 0's. Left them be for the day.

Jan25th
Checked the fish in the morning. Noticeably worse condition. I disabled the light cycle so as to not stress them any further. I packed up a good size water sample and headed out to Jim's (Forty Fathoms in Gananoque). 40 minute drive each way.
Jim and I tested the water again with his test kits for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. All of which for him read the same as mine. 0's.  We tested TDS, Phosphates, PH on top of the usual trates, trites and ammonia. Again all coming back being 0's.
Salinity was checked with my refractometer as well as Jims. Both read 1.025.  Temp has never spiked or changed at all.

Jan 26th
The devastation continues. Found the Orange shoulder, Dory, Vlamingi all dead. Mandarin and midas blenny close to death (died a few hours later).  Also my tail spot blenny I assume is dead. Haven't seen it all day. It wasn't doing well yesterday.
Nems are noticeably not happy. Balled up like in the pic I included near the beginning of the thread. The rest of the rest of the corals seem fine. Not open as much but not looking terrible or anything.
I've also seen a few nas snails today belly up on the substrate.
One poster asked why I went with Proto Marin Coral. From my research online and past experience. I believe the fish have Cryptocaryon. Reading and asking Jim led me to Proto Marin Coral. I have used this product with success in the past. In an ich outbreak in our 110g about a year ago. So, I've decided to treat with this once more in an effort to help the fish out.
I put the treatment in at about 4:30 this afternoon. It's now 8pm and the tank hasn't looked this normal in the last couple weeks. Fish are active again. Being cleaned by the cleaner. Seems like we're on the mend. I know all too well this could just be a calm before another storm. Here's hoping not.

Ok. I've broke down what I could think of. I hope this all helps out to clear up any questions. Sorry that you may have to pick through replies to get a good picture of what's going on.

[moused]

nice synopsis

yeah I'm opinion it's a bad case of ick...interesting that you get results with that chemical...(i'm curious about it now)

In all this cycling of the new tank...what's your frequency of your water changes?  
With the tank upgrade did you add alot of new live rock or just use what you had from old tank?

Brainstorming:
have you seen the same tracking of nitrites as well.  if you havn't seen nitrites and Nitrates then you're tank havn't cycled yet.  You essentially pulled the item that is needed to start the cycle (ammonia) by using too much prime...maybe?...but if you've been testing while your fish were dying then the cycle should have shown up on your test kits...

[RossW]

What did you use to glue you rock walls?

[Rybren]

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Stress from the move
- Stress from the ammonia last week
- Potential introduction of a parasite/bacterium/unknown pathogen with the new fish, coupled with the stress above (may not account for the loss of inverts)
- Toxic substance introduced to the tank (my current favourite culprit).  What type of glue did you use to attach the rock wall?
- Have you been using a new container of salt? It could be a bad batch (had this happen to me last year)
- Possible stray voltage (you may not feel it)

[az]

tank wasnt ready, nothing else!

75lbs of rock will take a long time to seed 150lbs of eco/dry rock wall. there was not enough good rock to work on the uncured rock + new sand + new water, good chance you will lose rest of the fish, i'd suggest you move them(fish+coral) elsewhere and just run the tank for few months before anything else.

time is the only solution.

[kole18]

Yup your right az , tank is new & needs to recycle atleast a month. Those rocks aren't LR's oh geez ! You know if those aren't cured LR's I would suggest to mix with LR's it makes your tank easy to recycle or I would add a sanbed & cheatos maybe a pcs of LR's to restablish your tank this really help a lot not just by suggesting this help to eliminate all those heavy metals stuff in your water such nitrates, phos & ammonia as well to improved your livestock health & again in this hobby you gotta have patient to succeed

[salvini55]

Agree with above, WAY too fast! two large tangs added during a cycle is bad news. Prime is only a bandaid for the ammonia. It is still present in the water. There is alot going on in your tank right now and things need to even them selves out for at least another month or two.

Ammonia test kits are notoriously inaccurate, or so I've read. I would be skeptical of 0 readings all across the board in such a new tank.

Im sorry you had to go through this and I wish you the best. Patience really pays in spades, and dollar $igns in this hobby.

[Dakotamay]

I've only done 1 20g water change and that was a week ago this past Wednesday January, 18th. 
With the tank upgrade we didn't add any live rock. We put in the 80lbs we  could fit of the 110lbs that we had. The other 25lbs is at Jims to be sold. I may go up and get it back and put it in the display tank. What do you all think? good idea to put it back in now or let things be at this point?

I have seen the nitrates go to 20ppm then drop back off. No Nitrites ever yet. Ammonia went as high as .50 then back down again as the nitrates started to appear. I appeared to me that the cycle was started and did complete. I don't believe it was a case of too much Prime. I still had ammonia reading even with the prime and I did stop the Prime once the ammonia reading started to decline and nitrates started to come up.
Even with using the Prime my ammonia was staying at .50 which is why I used the Prime as I figured it was much much higher than that if I hadn't used the Prime.

nice synopsis

yeah I'm opinion it's a bad case of ick...interesting that you get results with that chemical...(i'm curious about it now)

In all this cycling of the new tank...what's your frequency of your water changes?  
With the tank upgrade did you add alot of new live rock or just use what you had from old tank?

Brainstorming:
have you seen the same tracking of nitrites as well.  if you havn't seen nitrites and Nitrates then you're tank havn't cycled yet.  You essentially pulled the item that is needed to start the cycle (ammonia) by using too much prime...maybe?...but if you've been testing while your fish were dying then the cycle should have shown up on your test kits...

[Dakotamay]

We used the Orca Underwater Glue. The black color one. Here's a link to exactly what I used. http://fortyfathoms.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=442
I know that it's not this.
Thanks though for thinking of that. I really appreciate how much everyone is taking time to read and analyze and suggest.

What did you use to glue you rock walls?

[Dakotamay]

Possible. But from my experience so far in almost 2 years which isn't much I know. If it was stress. It shouldn't of taken almost a month to show up and start affecting the fish. I don't think anyways. They've been in this new tank since December 31st.
There was no ammonia last week. There hasn't been ammonia since the week before. The week of the 9th.
This is a possibility. There could of been something introduced from the new fish. However, Jim has had no issues in his tank and those fish were in his tank for a couple weeks before coming here. Also fish from that same shipment are still in his tanks now.
Again as I answered the same question we used Orca Underwater Glue, Black. http://fortyfathoms.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=442
No still using the same bucket of salt I was using in the 75g. No issues with it.
How would I test for stray voltage? I figured if I wasn't getting shocked (which I have before from a power head) then that wasn't an issue.

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Stress from the move
- Stress from the ammonia last week
- Potential introduction of a parasite/bacterium/unknown pathogen with the new fish, coupled with the stress above (may not account for the loss of inverts)
- Toxic substance introduced to the tank (my current favourite culprit).  What type of glue did you use to attach the rock wall?
- Have you been using a new container of salt? It could be a bad batch (had this happen to me last year)
- Possible stray voltage (you may not feel it)

[Dakotamay]

Wow. I appreciate you chiming in. But, and I don't mean to be rude here. You need to re read my thread. I have 80lbs of live rock, that came out of my 75g system. I have 260lbs of eco rock not 150lbs. It was not new substrate, it was used and was rinsed out. It was the substrate that had been in the tank already. Healthy system that was up and going strong for 7 months before we bought it.
Also you seem to have missed that I dosed heavily with Zeo Bak to assist in the lack of live rock itself and seed the new eco rock.

tank wasnt ready, nothing else!

75lbs of rock will take a long time to seed 150lbs of eco/dry rock wall. there was not enough good rock to work on the uncured rock + new sand + new water, good chance you will lose rest of the fish, i'd suggest you move them(fish+coral) elsewhere and just run the tank for few months before anything else.

time is the only solution.

[Dakotamay]

There is live rock in the display tank as well. Not much no, but some. Also as mentioned to AZ's post. I seeded the tank heavily with Zeo Bak as well to assist the tank in establishing a good beneficial bacteria colonization in the water column and in the rocks.

Yup your right az , tank is new & needs to recycle atleast a month. Those rocks aren't LR's oh geez ! You know if those aren't cured LR's I would suggest to mix with LR's it makes your tank easy to recycle or I would add a sanbed & cheatos maybe a pcs of LR's to restablish your tank this really help a lot not just by suggesting this help to eliminate all those heavy metals stuff in your water such nitrates, phos & ammonia as well to improved your livestock health & again in this hobby you gotta have patient to succeed

[Darth]

just throwing it out there maybe its your test kits that are fubared. I see you keep getting good results when you test, but I have seen one test kit show zero amonina and then another show ammonia off the charts, I personally think we need to start thinking smaller such as test kits, because a few things are wierd such as some new shrimp dead while others that have been in the tank are good to go. How long was the new tank up before you switched? It could be perhaps the rock wall is leeching something into the thank, perhaps the glue didn't cure enough, or something in the rock needed time to cure? I would at this point do a few water changes over the next few days and not add anything new to the tank till you figure out whats going on. I would not add anymore live rock, why spend the money and the risk of contaminating more stuff Just my opinion, good luck. Also have you tried running carbon?

[Hookup]

IMO, still was ammonia poison to the gills of the fish.  Some people report similar "weird crashes" with same or near same testing results.  Common element.  Use of PRIME to speed things up.

[Dakotamay]

I know well that nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Only bad happens fast. Been through a few tank crashes when we started this hobby almost 2 years ago.
The tangs weren't large lol. They were 1 inch and about 3 inches. The little vlamingi was a tiny fart yet. The orange shoulder was a little larger. Yes, should of waited to get them I agree. Hind sight is 20/20.
However the rest had to be moved over. There wasn't a choice.
Yes, Prime I know is a band aid. I used it to just ensure that the ammonia level didn't become toxic enough to harm the fish and corals. Once it started to decline. I stopped using and it declined on its own as the Nitrates rose. They then fell off and yes, with two different test kits. I've had no ammonia reading since it dropped off to 0.
Nitrates also slowly dropped off to 0.

The more I think and read everyone's answers. I do think the tank is just crashing. No, there are no ammonia readings, nitrates or nitrites to indicate it. But, none the less. I think it's just crashing. It's really the only explanation I think.

Time is what it needs.

Nothing new will go into the tank for at least a couple months. If we even decide to stay in the hobby. Hubby and I are really finding our nerves stretched to the limit.

In regards to AZ's comment of moving the fish and corals out. The fish are already so stressed that doing so would just kill them anyways. It's better I feel to just let them be. Besides. We'd never get them out without draining the whole tank and pulling all the rock out. That would be extremely stressful.  Even if they could be taken out. I don't have another holding tank big enough to accommodate them all. No shop would have the space to take in already sick fish either. I wouldn't even ask someone to take in sick fish and possibly contaminate their system too. They'll have to stay. What survives, survives. It's sad. I'm not happy about it.  I feel like a horrible failure to the critters we love and vowed to provide the very best possible home for. The reason for upgrading to a 180g.

Anyways. Thanks all for the help and suggestions. I'll update how it goes. At this point I think everyone has exhausted any possibilities that it could be other than just a tank crash.

Agree with above, WAY too fast! two large tangs added during a cycle is bad news. Prime is only a bandaid for the ammonia. It is still present in the water. There is alot going on in your tank right now and things need to even them selves out for at least another month or two.

Ammonia test kits are notoriously inaccurate, or so I've read. I would be skeptical of 0 readings all across the board in such a new tank.

Im sorry you had to go through this and I wish you the best. Patience really pays in spades, and dollar $igns in this hobby.

[Darth]

don't give up hope. it happens, unfortunately it does happen, sorry to hear it, but just keep plugging along. As I said I would do a few water changes over the next week and monitor what you have and see how they do
good luck

[Dakotamay]

I tested with mine as did Jim of Forty Fathoms with a couple of his. I don't think it's a bad test kit issue.
The 75g was up for 8 weeks. Don't freak out lol. Prior to that all of the contents, water, live rock everything came from our 110g that sprung a leak. Everything was aged over a year in that tank. We had no issues with moving everything to the 75g. No new rock or water was needed obviously with having gone down from a 110g to a 75g.  Just re read that. The new tank itself everything was moved over to it right away. We didn't have the space in our home to keep both tanks running. Wish I did. The 75g was pre sold and moved out once emptied.
I'm treating with Proto Marin Coral right now. That is a 6 day treatment where you stop the skimmer and carbon for days 1 and 2 while dosing. Day 3 resume skimmer and carbon and feed the fish. Day 4 stop skimmer and carbon and don't feed and dose. Days 5 & 6 no dosing, resume skimmer, carbon and feeding. Day 6 do a 30% water change. So for us will be around 60gals. I'm making the water now. It will take a few days to make. I can only make about 15gals a day with my water pressure.

just throwing it out there maybe its your test kits that are fubared. I see you keep getting good results when you test, but I have seen one test kit show zero amonina and then another show ammonia off the charts, I personally think we need to start thinking smaller such as test kits, because a few things are wierd such as some new shrimp dead while others that have been in the tank are good to go. How long was the new tank up before you switched? It could be perhaps the rock wall is leeching something into the thank, perhaps the glue didn't cure enough, or something in the rock needed time to cure? I would at this point do a few water changes over the next few days and not add anything new to the tank till you figure out whats going on. I would not add anymore live rock, why spend the money and the risk of contaminating more stuff Just my opinion, good luck. Also have you tried running carbon?

[Dakotamay]

yeah, just frustrated as all he** right now. What scares me the most right now is that there are 5 bodies in there that we couldn't reach to get out. Not without tearing all the rocks out. That is going to wreak havoc on the ammonia and nitrates, nitrites levels.
It's going to be a rocky road for the next month or two as we get through this.

don't give up hope. it happens, unfortunately it does happen, sorry to hear it, but just keep plugging along. As I said I would do a few water changes over the next week and monitor what you have and see how they do
good luck

[Bob P]

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. 

This could be an outbreak of Coral Reef Disease. Going by your comment about
stringy stuff trailing off the fish. They are shedding slime when this happens.
I don't think it's a cycle thing.
This condition looks like ich, only white spots are way smaller, and spreads
to other fish very quickly, like a day. Kills fast also.
Lots of stress from the move, sure.
May have triggered it.
Just putting it out there.

[Dakotamay]

I just did a search for Coral Reef Disease and didn't come up with anything that tells me more. I get all kinds of generalized sites about coral reef diseases. Not a specific condition.
How would one treat this?
I'm currently treating with Proto Marin Coral.

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. 

This could be an outbreak of Coral Reef Disease. Going by your comment about
stringy stuff trailing off the fish. They are shedding slime when this happens.
I don't think it's a cycle thing.
This condition looks like ich, only white spots are way smaller, and spreads
to other fish very quickly, like a day. Kills fast also.
Lots of stress from the move, sure.
May have triggered it.
Just putting it out there.

[Bob P]

Velvet, or coral fish disease. Oodinium
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aaich_oodinium.htm

[Dakotamay]

I just thought of something. I don't know why I didn't think of it til now.
The day we bought the tank and moved it home. It was raining. The salt trucks were out. The tank was open on a trailer.
I'm wondering if from spray from the trailer tires did salt get in there from the roads and may now be leaching out of the back rock walls. Does this make any sense?

[Dakotamay]

That's what I am treating for with Proto Marin Coral.

Velvet, or coral fish disease. Oodinium
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aaich_oodinium.htm

[Peekay]

I have never done salty, so I have no advice.. only hugs and condolences.  I loved reading your build thread, and you must be so frustrated to be dealing with this after all that work.  Good luck over the next days and weeks.   The dedication to your build shows, in my opinion, that you're the kind of person that will get through this!

[Bob P]

True, however, given the mortality rate you are seeing, just trying
to pinpoint what it may be.
Short of being a Marine Biologist ( any on here ? ),
who can dissect your dead fish, it's all just guessing.
Like yourself, I'd like to know what happened if it was me.
Best you can do now is stop the damage from continuing.
Good Luck.

[Dakotamay]

Thank you sooooo much Peekay. Your reply of condolences and hugs means so much.
Yes, it's been a lot of work. But, a labor of love for the hobby and our salt critters.
We went to a lot of trouble to make sure that we were employing what we'd learned to be the best practices in this new tank.
I think we went too fast. Too much in the system. AZ is right. It just stung the way he said it. It always stings to admit failure and mistakes made.
But, I did make them. Now dealing with the consequences.
I'll keep everyone up to date on how we do. I can't tell yet for today if there are anymore losses during the night. Blue lights don't come on til 11. Then I'll know. Not really looking forward to looking in.

I have never done salty, so I have no advice.. only hugs and condolences.  I loved reading your build thread, and you must be so frustrated to be dealing with this after all that work.  Good luck over the next days and weeks.   The dedication to your build shows, in my opinion, that you're the kind of person that will get through this!

[leemay]

sorry for your losses,
one thing that caught my eye was the (outside air bubbler)
hopefully its nowhere near your or your neighbors venting for a furnace/boiler/hotwater tank?

[Dakotamay]

Leemay,
Thanks for that thought. It is actually right outside our main door in a sun porch. No worry of exhausts or fumes of any kind. This started happening before that bubbler was added as well.

[rgauvin]

I just thought of something. I don't know why I didn't think of it til now.
The day we bought the tank and moved it home. It was raining. The salt trucks were out. The tank was open on a trailer.
I'm wondering if from spray from the trailer tires did salt get in there from the roads and may now be leaching out of the back rock walls. Does this make any sense?

I would have expected road salt and other contaminants to get in the tank if I understand your description of how you transported it. How thoroughly did you clean the tank when you got it home?

[Dakotamay]

The tank was rinsed down with freshwater and drained out.  I would say probably not thoroughly enough to be honest. It never occurred to me til now about the transport of the tank and weather etc that day.
I am still hearing that it is a crash though and that we went too fast setting up and putting all our stuff from the 75g in etc.....
I'm not sure which it is. I think I'm leaning towards it's crashing because of too much too fast.
Either way, there isn't anything I can do at this point about either. It's just going to take time. I have to do a 60g water change on the 31st. So that will help dilute any toxicity if it is from road salt or something of that nature.

[darkphreak]

You might want to do that water change now and another next week. Whatever is causing your tank to crash needs to be taken out with water changes.

[bt]

Prime will screw up the results of most ammonia tests.  Those tests will continue to read the ammonia that is bound up and non-toxic thanks to the Prime (meaning they'll read high, never low).  Same goes for other ammonia binders like Ammo-Lock.  You need a test that only looks at free ammonia to get an accurate reading.

They also won't affect the cycle.  Beneficial bacteria can still process the bound up ammonia.

A tank doesn't "just crash" - there's always a cause.  Though it may be something that we as hobbyists don't have the means to test for.  There aren't very many WQ tests left for you to try - Magnesium, Iron, Iodine, Silicate, Copper, Strontium.  I think we've ruled out copper though. I'm not really sure if any of the others could have this effect either, to be honest.  There's other stuff as well, but I think you'd need a professional lab to test your water for those.

I'm reading up on Zeobak - the white stringy stuff might be a symptom of overdosing it.  In general though, I'm pretty skeptical about "bacteria in a bottle".  Are you using any of the other Zeo products?

[Dakotamay]

Not using any other Zeo Products. I hadn't done any bacteria additions for a week or so now. I can't remember the last time I added the bacteria from the bottle.
It's something. I think it's my error. Too fast, too much bio load, not enough actual live rock of just 80lbs.

Prime will screw up the results of most ammonia tests.  Those tests will continue to read the ammonia that is bound up and non-toxic thanks to the Prime (meaning they'll read high, never low).  Same goes for other ammonia binders like Ammo-Lock.  You need a test that only looks at free ammonia to get an accurate reading.

They also won't affect the cycle.  Beneficial bacteria can still process the bound up ammonia.

A tank doesn't "just crash" - there's always a cause.  Though it may be something that we as hobbyists don't have the means to test for.  There aren't very many WQ tests left for you to try - Magnesium, Iron, Iodine, Silicate, Copper, Strontium.  I think we've ruled out copper though. I'm not really sure if any of the others could have this effect either, to be honest.  There's other stuff as well, but I think you'd need a professional lab to test your water for those.

I'm reading up on Zeobak - the white stringy stuff might be a symptom of overdosing it.  In general though, I'm pretty skeptical about "bacteria in a bottle".  Are you using any of the other Zeo products?

[Dakotamay]

Well, it's just after 12. My whites come on at 12.
Almost all fish are accounted for. My one little sebae clown, whom I'd seen near the rocks earlier, is now missing. Clowns don't usually go into the rocks at least any I've had don't. This sebae never did. So, I'm assuming it's now lost as well. It's partner the larger female is also looking around for him. Maybe he'll reappear. I'm not hopeful of this.

The rest of the fish in general seem well today. No further color loss, rapid breathing has subsided. The only two I'm still concerned about are of course the $80 each Picasso clowns. They are both full of the ich looking stuff. But, their color is better today. Breathing a little better today.  HOpefully they continue to get better. Time will tell all.

What's weird, the 3 Dispar Anthias, yellow watchman goby, purple and regular red fire fish are all acting as though nothing is happening in their world except they are wondering why no food. The McKoskers wrasse looks and is acting normal today as is the red marble scooter blenny (couldn't bare to lose her too. Losing Manny our Mandarin has been heartbreaking enough. Of the fish we have Manny, Scooty and Herman, our watchmen have been with us the longest.)

Wow does the tank ever look empty.

The nems seem to be happier today as do the rest of the corals in general and lights have only been on for 25 mins white, with an hour lead in of blues.

Maybe we've turned the corner and things will start to improve from here.

[brotherluv]

Since its advisable to do several water changes in the near future I'd consider the hyposalinity option!  It's the safest way to treat ich in my opinion!  Even if its just a precaution I don't see any harm in trying it.

[Dakotamay]

I'm on the 2nd day of Proto Marin treatment. This is a 6 day treatment. On the 6th day it calls for a 30% water change. In our case 60g. I'm going to hold off on water changes for now. Take water samples regularly twice a day and only do an emerg water change if something is spiking in the next couple days.

[bt]

Doing hypo in the DT will likely kill everything but the fish, though.  You really do need a separate tank for that.

[Severum]

Wow, so many responses over the last day. A+ to this supportive community.

In reading the thread the thing that stuck out for me is that you got live rock walls with the tank you bought. They all died in transport but you used them again. Thats is a ton of die off when you consider the dimensions of your 180. The dead stuff on those walls is just starting to decompose now. You'll probably be getting more and more ammonia problems as time goes by. Granted you threw in 75 or 100 lbs of live rock, but its not going to be enough to deal with that wall in such a short time.

In addition to that, all the dead matter in the walls will stay trapped there and fuel unwanted algae blooms for years to come. I have first hand experience in this. When I redid my tank I "cooked" every single piece of establish live rock and I couldn't believe the amount of crud that came off of otherwise clean looking live rock.

Hypo in the DT will be a bad idea like bt says cuz you'll kill all kinds of worms and critters that live in your rock leading to further die of and ammonia and another cycle.

In the long run it might be easier and more rewarding to start this tank over. That's my recommendation.

[Dakotamay]

I don't think I agree with the back wall trapping anything. They are ceramic plates that are glued to the wall. The surface is all exposed to the current. Any matter there would be removed by the flow. I know not having seen these ceramic plates, you're not sure what I mean. They don't actually have any spots that are like an actual rock wall where stuff can get into. It's hard to explain. Let me see if I can find the link to what they are again when I get back from picking up my hubby from work.
I don't think we need to start the tank over. That would literally mean a whole brand new 180g. Those rock walls were glued on by the previous owner and they're not coming off anytime soon lol. We would of liked to have remove them. You'd surely crack the back pane of glass trying.
I'm not going to put the fishes through hypo. They are better today so far. Going to wait it out and see how they do.

[az]

it wasnt the back rock wall that did it though, yes it overloaded your LR's capacity, but IMO it was the sand!!

unfortunately it is very common, happens to many people during move, happened to me.

when you are moving stuff from one tank to another, (without disturbing the sand) move the water, rock, fish, coral etc but not the sand, once everything is running nicely, add completely rinsed new or old sand 1 - 2 cups a day, gives LR enough time to cope, and it will not cloud your water.

[beertech]

I think one of the most important things you can do at this point is large, frequent water changes. Why are you hesitating to do do that?
In my opinion, that could also be one of the many causes of all this, during the first 30 days of heavily stocking a new tank while cycling it, you only did one 20 gal water change?
I think it would really help your situation to remove as much of the existing pollutants as possible.

[Dakotamay]

I agree beertech. But then I'm also caught in that I'm treating with Proto Marin Coral for the ich the fish now have. It calls for a 30% in our case a 60 gal water change on the 6th day that is the 31st. Today is the 28th. I feel I need to continue the already started treatment.
Basically, I'm not sure what will benefit them more at this point. Finish the treatment or interrupt that and do large water changes.

[joeyt66]

Im not familiar with that type of treatment. But if your worried couldnt you just treat the new water before adding it to the tank.
That shouldn't disrupt the treatment. 
Also i know you live near or around Kingston, Im only around 20 mins from. If you need anything like spare tanks to quarantine or any equipment heaters airpumps power heads. I have (as my wife would say) enough for all of Kingston  lol I have no issues lending them to you. Im also ready for a water change to ( aprox 25- 30 g) Tomorrow . If you need some mature water for your tank or just for Quarantining 

[Dakotamay]

Hey Joeyt66,
I'm actually an hour from Kingston. I'm in Brockville.
I thank you for the generous offer. I have removed 30g of water and replaced so far with the 15g I had made up. I'm making up more RO/DI water as I write. I will be mixing this to slightly lower salinity so as not to spike my salinity overall in the system.
The fish are so stressed out now that I think if I was to try and catch them and remove them they'd die for sure. I'd also never catch 5 of them anyways, 3 dispar anthias and a purple and red firefish. Oh and my yellow watchmen so 6. Make that 7 my McKoskers would hide too. Really the only ones I'd get out without much stress would be 2 Picasso's and a sebae clown.
Unfortunately I'm just going to have to keep toughing it through with them and hope they pull through.
If I do need anything though I'll certainly be in touch.
Again, I thank you so much for your generous offer.

Im not familiar with that type of treatment. But if your worried couldnt you just treat the new water before adding it to the tank.
That shouldn't disrupt the treatment. 
Also i know you live near or around Kingston, Im only around 20 mins from. If you need anything like spare tanks to quarantine or any equipment heaters airpumps power heads. I have (as my wife would say) enough for all of Kingston  lol I have no issues lending them to you. Im also ready for a water change to ( aprox 25- 30 g) Tomorrow . If you need some mature water for your tank or just for Quarantining 

[joeyt66]

No problem at all. Dont hesitate to ask if needed. Good luck in your battle. Hopefully your on the right track and can put this behind you and chaulk it up to gaining experience in this sometime time very frustrating hobby. But i might add as well very rewarding when things are going smooth.
Good Luck

[Dakotamay]

It's very frustrating right now. We just lost a Picasso clown.  The death toll just keeps rising everyday.  I fed a small amount and the one dispar anthias didn't eat. Anyone that knows anthias, they eat and a lot. This fish has never not ate before now. It'll be the next one to go.

[beertech]

Ok,
At this point, I highly recommend more water changes. Forget the Ich treatment, that's not your issue. There is something in your water, either Phosphates or Ammonia that could be bound and hidden from your test kits by all the Prime or other stuff you've been adding. The dead bodies that haven't been removed are now decomposing and causing a spike.
The only way to remove these pollutants is with large water changes.
I would do at least 20-30 gal every other day for a week or so.
Even if you don't wait for your R.O water to be made, go ahead and use tap water and just treat it with Prime. Just make sure the temp and salinity match your tank water.
I have been running reef tanks for almost 10 years now and have only recently switched over to R.O water, never had issues with negative effects on fish.
If you really don't want to use tap water, see if you can buy bottled R.O water somewhere, but don't wait!
Also, start running Carbon and phosphate media, in any type of filter, or reactor, whatever. I would use at least a cup of carbon and change it out every 3 days or so. The phosphate media doesn't need to be changed for at least a few weeks.
Do not add any other chemicals or treatments to your tank until things settle down.
You can get through this and minimize any more losses if you just keep things simple and don't skimp on the water changes.

Good luck

[Dakotamay]

I did ditch the treatment and have pulled 30g of water. I have replaced 15g so far. Will replace the remaining later today as the RO unit makes it.
I'll be doing the water changes every couple days now as you suggest.
We did just tear our corner rocks out and remove the dead bodies.
I put fresh carbon in the reactor just a couple hours ago as well. I don't have GFO right now. I'll get some.
I can't use tap water. Our well water has crazy high phosphates and TDS. That's why we had to buy the RO/DI unit to begin with.
Nothing more is going into the tank for a long time.
It's going to take a long time financially to replace everything. Our losses now are easily over $500 in fish. It's not even done yet. I'm sure I'm going to lose a couple more yet, by the way they are looking.

Ok,
At this point, I highly recommend more water changes. Forget the Ich treatment, that's not your issue. There is something in your water, either Phosphates or Ammonia that could be bound and hidden from your test kits by all the Prime or other stuff you've been adding. The dead bodies that haven't been removed are now decomposing and causing a spike.
The only way to remove these pollutants is with large water changes.
I would do at least 20-30 gal every other day for a week or so.
Even if you don't wait for your R.O water to be made, go ahead and use tap water and just treat it with Prime. Just make sure the temp and salinity match your tank water.
I have been running reef tanks for almost 10 years now and have only recently switched over to R.O water, never had issues with negative effects on fish.
If you really don't want to use tap water, see if you can buy bottled R.O water somewhere, but don't wait!
Also, start running Carbon and phosphate media, in any type of filter, or reactor, whatever. I would use at least a cup of carbon and change it out every 3 days or so. The phosphate media doesn't need to be changed for at least a few weeks.
Do not add any other chemicals or treatments to your tank until things settle down.
You can get through this and minimize any more losses if you just keep things simple and don't skimp on the water changes.

Good luck

[beertech]

Great!
You've done everything you can now, just keep up the water changes and hope for the best.
I do understand how you feel, I just lost the entire contents of my 5 year old 135 gal full reef set-up due to a hasty move (marital seperation).
Everything died, crabs, snails, all fish and corals.
That's why Ive been harping on you so much about the water changes, that was a major factor in my crash when I moved the system. It's like a snowball effect, you lose one fish, then a snail or two, then some unseen bacterial die-off,.....
But now I've upgraded to a 220 and am rebuilding my reef.
It's going to be a long, expensive process, but well worth the effort!
Be patient and it will pay off.

Gord

[Dakotamay]

Gord, I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles too. Wow. Devastation like ours. Worse I believe.
I do thank you for all your words of advice as well as everyone else on here that offered up any suggestions and made offers to help.
I'll do another 25g water change on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. See how things go from there.
Yup, to the long expensive process to rebuild.  A couple of the fish we lost we had really grown attached to for their little personalities. We'll miss them.
The tank is looking pretty bare.
This hour by hour is taxing on the nerves.
I'll keep posting to let everyone know how it's going.

Great!
You've done everything you can now, just keep up the water changes and hope for the best.
I do understand how you feel, I just lost the entire contents of my 5 year old 135 gal full reef set-up due to a hasty move (marital seperation).
Everything died, crabs, snails, all fish and corals.
That's why Ive been harping on you so much about the water changes, that was a major factor in my crash when I moved the system. It's like a snowball effect, you lose one fish, then a snail or two, then some unseen bacterial die-off,.....
But now I've upgraded to a 220 and am rebuilding my reef.
It's going to be a long, expensive process, but well worth the effort!
Be patient and it will pay off.

Gord

[darkphreak]

Do a 50 gallon water change every 2 days, even with your well water. Whatever is in the tank needs to come out and you cant do that with marginal WC's. 25g WC changes only dilute... a few 50g will remove.

[bt]

Do a 50 gallon water change every 2 days, even with your well water. Whatever is in the tank needs to come out and you cant do that with marginal WC's. 25g WC changes only dilute... a few 50g will remove.

Considering we don't know what is in the water that is the problem, something in the well water might just add to it.

Agree with larger changes though.  I'd even consider going up to a 50% change as soon as enough replacement water is ready to go...

[Dakotamay]

Well. Lost another fish. A dispar anthias.  There are 8 fish left of 20.  We're seriously thinking of just shutting down the tank for now. Will require some more discussion and decision on the hubby and I's part. Right now, we think that's what we're going to do.

[NanoSF]

I know it must be frustrating, I also lost more than half of my tank contents on a tank transfer that went wrong and snowballed after a heater failure. IMO I would push through and do what you can. Water changes and carbon/GFO are good, but do as little of anything else as possible. Stability is your key now. If you go shutting it down the remaining fish don't stand much of a chance. If they are stressed (and I'm sure they are), transferring to a new tank at this point might just do them in. Plus who are you going to get to take fish from a situation like this? If you can handle the stress, I would stay the course. I felt like giving up too. Now everyday that I look at the two fish, one crab, one shrimp and handful of corals I saved through hard work, I am glad I stuck with it and got through it.

[Dakotamay]

Thanks NanoSF
It is incredibly frustrating. More heartbreaking really. To watch fish you've had for almost 2 years die before your eyes. I have just 2 left that I've had for 2 years. A marble scooter we call Scooty and a yellow watchman we call Herman. He's grouchy, just the name he got lol. No idea don't ask hahaha.
To watch so much time and love and caring for just die so fast. I don't have words to describe how we feel. The thought of rebuilding this.... Almost unbearable right now.
Anyways. I'm rambling.
We'll probably stick it out. Just going through the gamet of emotions right now I guess.

I know it must be frustrating, I also lost more than half of my tank contents on a tank transfer that went wrong and snowballed after a heater failure. IMO I would push through and do what you can. Water changes and carbon/GFO are good, but do as little of anything else as possible. Stability is your key now. If you go shutting it down the remaining fish don't stand much of a chance. If they are stressed (and I'm sure they are), transferring to a new tank at this point might just do them in. Plus who are you going to get to take fish from a situation like this? If you can handle the stress, I would stay the course. I felt like giving up too. Now everyday that I look at the two fish, one crab, one shrimp and handful of corals I saved through hard work, I am glad I stuck with it and got through it.

[NanoSF]

My crash happened over two days, maybe that was better, maybe it was worse. I was almost in tears picking fish out of the tank every couple of hours. Watching fish at the brink of death. It was heartbreaking. I stayed up all night. I was at Wal-Mart at 3:00AM getting some water conditioner because I didn't have enough RO/DI water and had to use tap water to keep up with the water changes. I changed probably ten times the volume of my tank over the span of the two days. I watched one of my fish get sucked up against powerheads he was so weak, but now he is one of the ones that lived. It was amazing that he was within minutes of death I'm sure, and he survived. He was a fighter and I wasn't going to just sit there and watch him die. This is a hobby, and a big part of it is perseverance. It will be hard but you can hang in there. You will feel good about what you are able to accomplish in the end.

If it was me I would start making tons and tons of water if you have the capability. I didn't read every post, but I see you are on a well, but have an RO/DI right? As long as that water tests reasonably well on the TDS meter, pump out as much as possible and change that water. I started out gradually, then I changed like crazy. Basically the water change water was identical to the water in the tank near the end so I could change water more quickly. The only reason you change small amounts of water is because your tank water is going to be different than the new water. Once you change enough water they are both the same so you can pump tons of water change water through the system eventually. That is assuming you are good at keeping temp and salinity very very close when changing.

Good luck.

[Dakotamay]

Thanks for the tips. I'm glad you were able to bring one back from the brink of death. That is something.
With regards to temp of new water, here's where I love my DA RKL. I have all 3 heaters on the same plugin. It's set to 78.5 with a hysterisis of .5. So the whole set up is always the same temp.
I heat it at first with another heater to bring it up to temp then it's maintained with the rest of the system. I will mention just for clarity to everyone. I keep a digital thermometer in the RO/DI water for accuracy with the RKL iTemp probe.
Yes, I know about running for the fish. I've made so many trips to Gananoque to Jim's (Forty Fathoms on the site here) in the last few weeks. It's 40 mins drive each way. Jim's even been good enough to stay up late and be there when I needed something. So Jim, if you're reading this. Thank you so much for all you do for us. Have done and will ever do in the future. You'll never know how much it's appreciated.
Speaking of appreciation. I'd like to extend some public acknowledgement to JD (username) Jeff here on the site. He lives right near me here and sent me a PM offering any help and support he might be able too.  It's amazing how helpful the salty community is. During this time I received offers from Rybren, Joeyt66 and JD (Jeff) of help with anything from equipment to media to aged water, tanks, etc... The list goes on to help me get our tank through this crash.
You guys are amazing people and I thank you all for all your help and support. Hopefully we will start to turn a corner on this and begin recovering soon.

My crash happened over two days, maybe that was better, maybe it was worse. I was almost in tears picking fish out of the tank every couple of hours. Watching fish at the brink of death. It was heartbreaking. I stayed up all night. I was at Wal-Mart at 3:00AM getting some water conditioner because I didn't have enough RO/DI water and had to use tap water to keep up with the water changes. I changed probably ten times the volume of my tank over the span of the two days. I watched one of my fish get sucked up against powerheads he was so weak, but now he is one of the ones that lived. It was amazing that he was within minutes of death I'm sure, and he survived. He was a fighter and I wasn't going to just sit there and watch him die. This is a hobby, and a big part of it is perseverance. It will be hard but you can hang in there. You will feel good about what you are able to accomplish in the end.

If it was me I would start making tons and tons of water if you have the capability. I didn't read every post, but I see you are on a well, but have an RO/DI right? As long as that water tests reasonably well on the TDS meter, pump out as much as possible and change that water. I started out gradually, then I changed like crazy. Basically the water change water was identical to the water in the tank near the end so I could change water more quickly. The only reason you change small amounts of water is because your tank water is going to be different than the new water. Once you change enough water they are both the same so you can pump tons of water change water through the system eventually. That is assuming you are good at keeping temp and salinity very very close when changing.

Good luck.

[kole18]

Believe me guys, you guys aren't alone to have this problem. I did it before too, so i know how it feels like to be on your situation. i know some of our co-ovas here too had same issue in the passed, i guess we all went through this processing until we catch up & learn our mistake. I know this is a big challenge for us, this isn't only about freshwater aquarium we're building our own marine salt water enviroment & we're dealing with a very sensitive animals. But again we're not all perfect it just a matter of time to correct our mistake. I feel sorry for your lost on everything that you have in your tank. Hopefully thing get back together again soon good luck wish all the best for your new tank

[Dakotamay]

Thanks Kole18

Believe me guys, you guys aren't alone to have this problem. I did it before too, so i know how it feels like to be on your situation. i know some of our co-ovas here too had same issue in the passed, i guess we all went through this processing until we catch up & learn our mistake. I know this is a big challenge for us, this isn't only about freshwater aquarium we're building our own marine salt water enviroment & we're dealing with a very sensitive animals. But again we're not all perfect it just a matter of time to correct our mistake. I feel sorry for your lost on everything that you have in your tank. Hopefully thing get back together again soon good luck wish all the best for your new tank

[Darth]

I've been reading this thread and my heart breaks, it seems the worse part is not knowing what the mistake was, if you knew you did someting that was kind of iffy it would make sense, but not knowing what caused this is what keeps you up at night, I really wish we had a greg house md for our reefs! He could diagnose what's wrong and save the day LOL. Seems like you are doing all you can, I kow you are making rodi as fast as you can but perhaps someone has some made they can "loan" you at least till you can get the water changes done, I unfortunatley don't have one or else I would offer, but I know some keep barrels of it just an idea

[brotherluv]

Within my first 3 months I had a crash that killed everything!  Devastating!  Summer kept the tank waaaaaay to hot...my bro is installing central air for me in the spring.  After the collapse I let it sit for 2 months before I added any fish. Any ich that may or may not have been there would surely have died and the water had been changed several times in that 2  month period. Good news is I've learned from my mistake and have moved forward!  I've learned a significant amount by following this thread as well. Super important as i can see myself upgrading my 55g to a larger tank in the next couple of years.  I hope you folks can get over the devastating loss, move forward and enjoy the inevitable success you'll have with such a strong support network here on ovas.  If you stick it out your future will hold much enjoyment in this hobby!

[Dakotamay]

Thanks for the kind offer if you would of had RO to offer.
Good news is. Jim Forte of Forty Fathoms in Gananonoque and a sponsor of this site under sponsor section gave me all he had made today about 60gals to help me out. 
I don't want to sound like I'm plugging for Jim or anything. But, guys you've never met someone that cares and will bend over backwards to help out his customers as Jim. I know it's a long drive from Ottawa, but if you ever need anything it may be worth your while to check him out. I deal exclusively with Jim and it's for that exact reason. He just cares and isn't in it to line his pockets.
Yes, I love House and I wish we had one for our tanks too. He'd save them just in the nick of time.
We'll move forward from here. Rebuild. It's all that's left to do.

I've been reading this thread and my heart breaks, it seems the worse part is not knowing what the mistake was, if you knew you did someting that was kind of iffy it would make sense, but not knowing what caused this is what keeps you up at night, I really wish we had a greg house md for our reefs! He could diagnose what's wrong and save the day LOL. Seems like you are doing all you can, I kow you are making rodi as fast as you can but perhaps someone has some made they can "loan" you at least till you can get the water changes done, I unfortunatley don't have one or else I would offer, but I know some keep barrels of it just an idea

[Dakotamay]

I'm very glad that you have learned from this thread. My suggestion when you upgrade. Keep the 55g and it's contents right where they are til the new tank is cycled. I wish I'd of done that.

Within my first 3 months I had a crash that killed everything!  Devastating!  Summer kept the tank waaaaaay to hot...my bro is installing central air for me in the spring.  After the collapse I let it sit for 2 months before I added any fish. Any ich that may or may not have been there would surely have died and the water had been changed several times in that 2  month period. Good news is I've learned from my mistake and have moved forward!  I've learned a significant amount by following this thread as well. Super important as i can see myself upgrading my 55g to a larger tank in the next couple of years.  I hope you folks can get over the devastating loss, move forward and enjoy the inevitable success you'll have with such a strong support network here on ovas.  If you stick it out your future will hold much enjoyment in this hobby!

[Darth]

Yes Jim is awesome haven't met him personally but always heard good things about him glad you are going to keep at it, once things settle down and your up and running again LMK I may have a few frags I can help you out with to restart the tank may not be much but with some tlc it goes a long way. Keep at it!!!

[Dakotamay]

Awww Darth that is an absolutely amazing and generous offer. 
When we're safe to add in a couple months. I'll certainly be in touch. Don't ever hesitate to PM me if you ever need something. If I can help I certainly will.
Gotta love this community. 

Yes Jim is awesome haven't met him personally but always heard good things about him glad you are going to keep at it, once things settle down and your up and running again LMK I may have a few frags I can help you out with to restart the tank may not be much but with some tlc it goes a long way. Keep at it!!!

[Dakotamay]

Well, with another 30g water change done yesterday and another to go today. I have lost my last sebae clown. The remaining fish all look great and are eating well. All corals and shrimps are well too.
Here's hoping  things turn around from this point going forward.

[Dakotamay]

It's been a few days since I updated everyone. The tank seems to be settling now. We have just 5 fish left of the 20 we started with. None of our corals were affected.
We have a huge diatom outbreak right now. Which leads me to further believe that this for sure was a cycle.
It'll be a couple months now before we add anything else to the tank. With the exception in about 3 weeks of some crabs and snails. My clean up crew was almost completely wiped out too.
Thanks to all who commented, gave ideas and encouraged us. Thanks also to those that were kind of enough to make offers of any help they could and to those that have offered to give a frag to help us out when we can add.
Please anyone in this community reading this, if you need help at all don't hesitate to PM me and let me know what's up. If I can help you out. I certainly will in any way that I can.

[Bob P]

Diatoms bloom and feed off the silica in your salt mix.
Once it's used up the diatoms die off.
Big water changes cause this.

[Dakotamay]

Thanks Bobp. I hope they use them up soon lol. The tank looks horrible. I've not had a diatom outbreak like this one in my past tanks I've set up.
There's nice looking hair algae growing on top of the diatoms lol. Not pretty.

[dustin_k]

Sorry this is very
Late, but did you ever consider
None fish related poisoning. Do you
Use ferbreeze or clean the glass
With windex. Hardwood
Floor cleaner can be a nasty
One. As soon as its in the air In the room and it comes
In contact with the water your fish are in for a for sure death.

[Dakotamay]

Hi Dustin_K,

Yes we looked at all the possibilities. We figured out that the tank just crashed or cycled and that's what killed almost everything.

We've been back up and running smoothly since the first week of February or so. We're now into July and haven't had anymore losses other than normal no big deal losses that we all deal with as sw tank owners.

My corals are all thriving as are all of our fish. We're back up to 16 fish again. Most are small with only 3 large fish. The 3 large are a vampire tang, blue hippo tang and a moorish idol. Everything else in the tank are fish that grow no more than 3-4 inches at most.

Thanks for the suggestion though. I've not changed anything in the house here. So I know for sure it wasn't environmental.