180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[NanoSF]

Did you use substrate from the old tank?

I am +1 on it not being a copper issue. No way the snails/shrimp survive and the fish die.

[Dakotamay]

That's all that is in the 25g of RO/DI water to circulate it.

The display has much more lol.  If you read through again, you'll see there is plenty.
Closed loop with a 4200gal per hour dart on it.
3 koralia 1050's in tank as well. I think they have lots.
Also a 396 gal per hour return pump

itds al lyou have in there for circulation?

[Dakotamay]

Rybren,
Unfortunately I don't have any. I am an hour away from you. Wish I was closer. That is a very generous offer on your part and very much appreciated.
We have no salt water equipped stores near here. Closest is Jim, Forty Fathoms in Gan. 40 min drive. Next is either Ottawa or Kingston.

Do you have any Bio-Marine Poly Filter?  If so, run some on your tank.  It will remove copper and some heavy metals.  It will also turn green if there is copper in the water.

If you don't have any, Big Al's usually carries it.  Some other LFS may also have it in stock.  I have some that I could give you, but unfortunately, I'm in Orleans.

[Dakotamay]

No substrate from the old tank. It was sold with the old tank.  Yup starting to agree with everyone the more research I do. It's not copper. But what the heck it is. I'm stumped.

Did you use substrate from the old tank?

I am +1 on it not being a copper issue. No way the snails/shrimp survive and the fish die.

[Saltcreep]

In reading through this entire thread the only thing that sticks out for me is the fact that all the filters in the RO/DI unit were changed recently and that the old ones were over a year old. I am nowhere near an expert on marine tanks or the chemistry of saltwater, but could that be food for though for those more knowledgeable.

[bt]

A full list of what parameters were tested might help narrow it down.

Did you cure the eco-rock at all?

[Hookup]

Looks like ammonia. 

[moused]

ok...so no other tank other then your display.
I disagree on the ammonia (if he's tested with 2 different kits)

Kinda curious that your not loosing your inverts. I'll be curious if you loose another batch of fish in a week or so (if so then I'd point to a parasite cycle like ick - inverts don't get ick, trust me the second cycle of ick is a massive killer)
How many inverts have you actually lost since your fish started dying?

recommendations:
So do a massive water change to dilute whatever the toxin is.
Get rid of that used tank that you just added.  For if they used it as a QT tank then who knows what's imbedded in that silicone and leaching into your display.

If you still think it's Toxin's remaining after the water change then maybe put a power filter on it loaded with carbon.

what are the list of items you changed in the 3 weeks prior to your first fish dying?
Edit: sorry you just moved tanks..went back and read.

When did you move the fish across to this tank? after the cycle? so just recently?(stress which spiked the ick? and you just saw the second cycle of it.)
What is your tank temperature at?

[Dakotamay]

No the eco rock was rinsed and put in dry.

Two ammonia kits have read 0 two different days. I can't see it being ammonia.

I can't see the RO/DI unit filters having anything to do with this. Anyone else?

The main things that have been tested are

Ammonia 0
Nitrates   0
Nitrites    0
Phosphates 0
TDS         0
Calcium   440-450
PH           7.9 lights out, 8.1 lights on. It was lower than this. I added a bubbler bringing fresh air in from outside right to the sump and this raised the PH. It was at 7.75 at it's lowest. I know it isn't anything to do with the PH because this was happening before that.

No additives or dosing at all. I've never had too.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Hopefully we'll figure this thing out.

I'm about to dose Proto Marin Coral for the relief of the ich. Not the root of the problem, but will alleviate the fish some and hopefully let them get stronger again.

I need to find the cause of the stress.

[Dakotamay]

I have lost some snails and crabs too. Maybe 4-5 that I've noticed. A couple nas snails and a couple reg snails. 1 or 2 crabs.
I'm about to dose Proto Marin Coral for the ich.

I'm going to do the water change after the Proto marin treatment. I'll have to do a 30% water change after it. Which is 60 gals.

We didn't just add the used tank. It was put into the new system when we set it up on the 31st of December. I have removed it now.

I'm going to change the carbon in the carbon reactor for when I turn it back on on days 2,4 and 5 and onward.

Items changed in the 3 weeks prior. Pretty much the whole tank lol. We upgraded from a 75g to this 180g on December 31st.
Now, in the time the new tank has been up. We switched out lights. Went from LED's, to MH, Moonlight and T5 Fixtures. This caused too much of a heat issue. So after about 4 days, they went back and we put back our original LED strips and added another strip.
The power heads messed up so one had to be taken out and serviced and is now back in.
I added our last quarter bag of bio pellets, which were soaked in RO water over night to the pellet reactor. Added some bacteria to the pellet reactor to seed the new pellets a bit.  I don't think there's anything in that. But, I may be wrong.

ok...so no other tank other then your display.

Kinda curious that your not loosing your inverts. I'll be curious if you loose another batch of fish in a week or so (if so then I'd point to a parasite cycle like ick - inverts don't get ick, trust me the second cycle of ick is a massive killer)
How many inverts have you actually lost since your fish started dying?

recommendations:
So do a massive water change to dilute whatever the toxin is.
Get rid of that used tank that you just added.  For if they used it as a QT tank then who knows what's imbedded in that silicone and leaching into your display.

If you still think it's Toxin's remaining after the water change then maybe put a power filter on it loaded with carbon.

what are the list of items you changed in the 3 weeks prior to your first fish dying?

[JetJumper]

I would have to agree there is something in the water.  Do you run OZONE or anything like that?  What are you using for testing kits?   

You do have phosphates, but even if it were 1 it shouldn't effect fish like this.  The tank is pretty new as well so it might not have had a chance to fully cycle.

[moused]

Proto marin will not cure ick (not sure where you got your information on this)...hyposalinity or copper is the only way to kill it (proven and tested)
I personally use Hypo...works really well.

the Addition of new bio-pellets is interesting.  Not sure if it's a factor.  Mixed reviews online on issues getting new pellets introduced...
but the fact that you show no cycling with your tests pushes me away from the bacteria cycle and more towards toxicity or parasite.
even if it stopped cycling..and your nitrates and ammonia are good then it wouldn't kill the fish(IMO)...

[bt]

If it wasn't cycled though, there wouldn't be multiple tests coming back with 0 ammonia/nitrite.

What brand of salt?

[NewReef]

With only 80 pounds of liverock and 250+ of ecorock I don't believe the tank has even begun its cycle process. Having test results of 0 mean nothing if the cycle hasn't started or cheap kits are used. Big volume of water means the cycle can and will take time to start.

[bt]

Having test results of 0 mean nothing if the cycle hasn't started or cheap kits are used.

For nitrite or nitrate, it can mean those things.  Not for ammonia.  A 0 for ammonia, with fish already in the tank, means:

The cycle is "complete" and there is enough beneficial bacteria present for the bioload of the tank to keep ammonia below toxic levels, or the test kit has gone bad.

Fish have been in there for over a week - if the cycle hadn't started, not even a cheap test kit (that hadn't gone bad) would read 0 ammonia.  They've tested the water with 2 kits and both read 0 ammonia.  I doubt both have gone bad.

[brotherluv]

Did you use the water from the 75g tank you replaced?

[NewReef]

Its only been 26 days since setup. My 550g (total volume) took 35-40 days before ammonia was detectable, and I had used about 400 pounds of live rock and maybe 100 of base. It should show some ammonia level now that a few fish have died in the tank.

[Dakotamay]

Ok, to catch back up with the thread and many thanks for everyones support and ideas. The questions are great too. We'll figure this out.

There seems to be some confusion regarding set up and introduction of fish etc, from what I have said already in the thread.

Here's a bit better time line. I hope.

December 27th
Brought the tank home. Got it set up on the stand. That was about it given getting that done was a chore at 600lbs for the tank alone. It has 3 ceramic rock walls glued to the back wall. They were previously live. Died obviously in transport and before water went in etc. So now base rock.

December 28th
Worked the day to do the corner rock works. Glued all into place etc.

December 29th
Same as day before only on the center rock structure.

December 30th
Began filling the tank. I had used our new 50g sump tank to have new salt water made. It was heated to 78.5 degrees and kept there consistent. 10lbs of live rock and bacteria were added. I also had a koralia 1050 in for circulation. This was up and cycling since December 1st ish. I also had another 50g tank that I had done the same thing with as above. Exact same thing with heater, rock and power head. Added bacteria. This gave me 100g of somewhat cycled water. Not perfect, but not completely new water. I also had a 25g with water, no live rock, salt etc. Just fresh RO/DI water. We ended up using all this water along with the water from our 75g which was about 100g to fill this one.

December 31st
Finished filling. The water from the 75g was the last to go over. We moved the fish and corals over. Live rock was moved to the 50g sump tank from the 75g display.  The fish and corals have been in the tank since this day.
We added around the 10th of January an orange shoulder and vlamingi. I'll get to that a litttle further down the timeline.

Jan 1st to Jan 5th
All is well.

Jan 6th
I had been testing the water for any spikes in trates, trites or ammonia that would indicate a cycle. Today I found ammonia at .50. We're cycling. Not good. I had Prime on hand. I added a dose for 200g and all was well. Ammonia remained around the .50 mark.

Jan 7th
Ammonia still about the same. Starting to read nitrates around 5ppm. Never did get any nitrite readings through this time.

Jan 8th
Ammonia down to .25, trates at 10ppm. Still adding Prime to ensure that nothing gets too high that we lose fish, corals or inverts. No losses and no one is stressed in the slightest.

Jan 9th
Ammonia down to 0 and nitrates at about 20ppm. Stopped adding Prime. Still no one is stressed and no losses. I am during this whole time from December 31st to now adding Zeo Bak to start the beneficial bacterias up with so much new water.

Jan 10th
Our orange shoulder and vlamingi came in. Our levels were the same and so we decided to go ahead and bring them home. Again no one was stressed, no losses etc. No Prime. No bacterias added. Let the tank start to stand on it's own two feet so to speak.

Jan 11th to 16th
all was well.

Jan 16th (My birthday)
Hubby and I find my citrinis goby stuck to the power head. It was stuck in reverse. The reason I mentioned that a power head was removed for service in an earlier reply.  I didn't think anything of this, because the little guy never really did do well in the 75g and was very skinny again now in the 180g and wasn't really eating. He'd pick. I chalked it up to him starving himself to death. Yes, him. I feed on a normal routine the tank 4-5 times a day. Small amounts that they consume within minutes. No waste. I have 3 dispar anthias that require loads of food a day. Most meals consist of NLS Thera +A pellets. Once a day frozen, either Marine Fusion, blood worms, mysis or vitamin enriched brine. I like to mix it up for them. I have a gorg who gets cyclop-eeze daily. The fish like it too.

Jan 17th-19th
All is well.

Jan 20th
All was well that morning. Went to town for errands and came home to find my Lamarck's Angel on the substrate breathing heavy. She had been fine when I left, ate, swimming acting normal. A few hours later, on the substrate almost dead. A few hours later and she was dead. Body removed. The citrinis body was removed the day it was found dead as well.

Jan 21st to 23rd
All was well. Nothing out of the ordinary. Daily water tests showed that ammonia, nitrates were at 0's now and the nitrites remained 0. Never ever got a nitrite reading.

Jan 24th
The three tangs, blue tang, orange shoulder tang and vlamingi tang all hid all day. Wouldn't come out to eat or cruise the tank.
Tested water, again all 0's. Left them be for the day.

Jan25th
Checked the fish in the morning. Noticeably worse condition. I disabled the light cycle so as to not stress them any further. I packed up a good size water sample and headed out to Jim's (Forty Fathoms in Gananoque). 40 minute drive each way.
Jim and I tested the water again with his test kits for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. All of which for him read the same as mine. 0's.  We tested TDS, Phosphates, PH on top of the usual trates, trites and ammonia. Again all coming back being 0's.
Salinity was checked with my refractometer as well as Jims. Both read 1.025.  Temp has never spiked or changed at all.

Jan 26th
The devastation continues. Found the Orange shoulder, Dory, Vlamingi all dead. Mandarin and midas blenny close to death (died a few hours later).  Also my tail spot blenny I assume is dead. Haven't seen it all day. It wasn't doing well yesterday.
Nems are noticeably not happy. Balled up like in the pic I included near the beginning of the thread. The rest of the rest of the corals seem fine. Not open as much but not looking terrible or anything.
I've also seen a few nas snails today belly up on the substrate.
One poster asked why I went with Proto Marin Coral. From my research online and past experience. I believe the fish have Cryptocaryon. Reading and asking Jim led me to Proto Marin Coral. I have used this product with success in the past. In an ich outbreak in our 110g about a year ago. So, I've decided to treat with this once more in an effort to help the fish out.
I put the treatment in at about 4:30 this afternoon. It's now 8pm and the tank hasn't looked this normal in the last couple weeks. Fish are active again. Being cleaned by the cleaner. Seems like we're on the mend. I know all too well this could just be a calm before another storm. Here's hoping not.

Ok. I've broke down what I could think of. I hope this all helps out to clear up any questions. Sorry that you may have to pick through replies to get a good picture of what's going on.

[moused]

nice synopsis

yeah I'm opinion it's a bad case of ick...interesting that you get results with that chemical...(i'm curious about it now)

In all this cycling of the new tank...what's your frequency of your water changes?  
With the tank upgrade did you add alot of new live rock or just use what you had from old tank?

Brainstorming:
have you seen the same tracking of nitrites as well.  if you havn't seen nitrites and Nitrates then you're tank havn't cycled yet.  You essentially pulled the item that is needed to start the cycle (ammonia) by using too much prime...maybe?...but if you've been testing while your fish were dying then the cycle should have shown up on your test kits...

[RossW]

What did you use to glue you rock walls?