EMERGENCY Fish Compatability!!!

[masoud100]

Hi forum members I have a 55 gallon fish tank planted. I currently have 10 tiger barbs, 1 red tail black shark (2 inches), 3 Bala Sharks (2.5 inches), and had 3 Hillstream Loaches. Well I wake up this morning and realized one of the loaches was dead with his tail complely missing. But the other two were alive. 2 Hours later I realize my 2nd hillstream loach is dead without his tail and one of his eye had been eaten. I saw some tiger barbs eating his dead corpse so threw it away. My third and as of this moment currently alive Loach was chased by the red-tail black shark and I literally saw the loach swim for his life which I never do.

So I want to know who is killing my fish? I am heading to work but plan on selling the loach to the pet store if its still alive.

With my current setup what other fish are compatible with the tiger barb, red tail-black shark and bala sharks. Some may say bala sharks need more room, but it wont be for a couple more months until they reach about 4-5 inches I say. But I might sell the Bala Sharks too.

So someone please help ASAP!

P.S. I like having a semi-agressive tank but keep in mind that I have plants so i need a stocking which can coincide with my live plants.

[Fishnut]

Living fish eat dead fish if they find them in the tank, so you're not witnessing something like piranhas eating their prey.  There's something else going on.  I personally wouldn't put hillstream loaches in the tank with a re-tailed black shark.  The other fish in the tank are OK, but to the RT shark.  Those guys have a major attitude when it comes to similar fish.  That's my experience though.  You need tank mates that do not share their zone in the tank or are too fast for them or that will turn around and fight back.

Just to help figure things out though, please answer these questions:

How long has the tank been running?

What filter do you have running on it?

Is the filter newer than the tank?

What is the ammonia level in your tank?

What is the Nitrite level in your tank?

What is the Nitrate level in your tank?

Were these loaches added recently?

[charlie]

Living fish eat dead fish if they find them in the tank, so you're not witnessing something like piranhas eating their prey.  There's something else going on. 

X2

[masoud100]

Living fish eat dead fish if they find them in the tank, so you're not witnessing something like piranhas eating their prey.  There's something else going on.  I personally wouldn't put hillstream loaches in the tank with a re-tailed black shark.  The other fish in the tank are OK, but to the RT shark.  Those guys have a major attitude when it comes to similar fish.  That's my experience though.  You need tank mates that do not share their zone in the tank or are too fast for them or that will turn around and fight back.

Just to help figure things out though, please answer these questions:

How long has the tank been running?

What filter do you have running on it?

Is the filter newer than the tank?

What is the ammonia level in your tank?

What is the Nitrite level in your tank?

What is the Nitrate level in your tank?

Were these loaches added recently?

1. The tank has been running for a month now...3 weeks with fish
2. I have two Filters running (Marineland C220 Canister, Aqua Clear 50 both were used from old cycled tanks)
3. Don't know I guess no
4. Pets Mart said 0
5. Petsmart said 0
6. Petsmart said 0
7. The loaches were added about 2 weeks ago same time as Bala Sharks. They had harlequin rasboras with them but 4 of my harlequins died and 2 of my bala shark died. So I returned all Harlquin for Tiger Barbs and my other 3 bala are still alive.

[Fishnut]

Woah...WAY too many fish in there for only 3 weeks and there's no way your readings should be 0 across the board with a 3 week old set-up!!!  Have you recently changed 100% of the water in your tank?  What is your maintenance regime?

Take a water sample to another aquarium shop...I can't say why without breaking the forum rule of not bashing local fish shops.  Big Al's in Kanata Centrum or on Innes Rd are good, or Critter Jungle.  Better yet, buy the test kit with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate so you can do the tests at home.  Don't worry about PH or anything else...just those 3.

Research cycling your aquarium.  It's not a complicated process, but you need to know it very very well.  Basically the fish produce Ammonia via their gills and dietary waste (poop).  It's toxic and kills fish.  Beneficial bacteria in the tank start to break the ammonia down (essentially eating it) and produce Nitrite.  This is also toxic and kills fish.  Then other beneficial bacteria break down the Nitrite and turn it into NitrAte.  This is safe for fish and is expected in a well establish aquarium...but at a low level.  Plants will also help reduce this, but there is always a level of Nitrate.

So, the more fish you have in the beginning and the more food gets introduced into the system, the more ammonia is produced and the higher the toxin level is.  When ammonia is present, the sensitive fish succumb to the toxin first (usually at low levels), then when it gets higher, other fish will be killed by it.  The cycle takes time to establish itself.  The levels of bacteria in the tank have to grow to be able to handle the levels of waste in the aquarium system, which is why we test to see when the cylce has completed and add fish very gradually from that point forward.  There are products available on the market which say they add bacteria, but they're nothing more than money grabs that don't do anything significant.  SOME shop employees are taught differently so they don't know better.  Trust me...that stuff is crap.  It might help a teeny bit but IMO, why spend the money on something that works a teeny bit?

The first thing I would like you to do is answer the questions in my first paragraph and get your water tested properly.  IMO, the tests are handy to have in the house because you'll be using them quite a bit in the next little while.  Don't be shy or embarrassed if your water is a big mess.  I say this because when I worked in a fish shop, I used to have customers come in with a bag of tap water because they were too embarrassed.  You need to know solid answers before you can fix the problem.

When you have the results, please post them so we can continue to figure things out.

[masoud100]

No I have only done 2 water changes since setup both around 30%. I know how to cycle tanks and the tank I bought was used. I removed everything from the tank and cleaned it well but kept the canister filter media, etc. I also used my Aquaclear filter from another tank I had running for over a year. This was all done for about 1 week with only live plants and no fish. I then added 5 bala sharks after a week of it running with no fish. 3 Days later I added 3 Hillsteam loaches and 2 of my bala sharks died I believe a day after. Then about 5 days after that I added 16 Harlequin Rasboras and about 4 died, 2 days later. Now I have 10 Tiger Barbs, 3 Bala Sharks, and 1 Hillsteam loach and 1 red-tail black shark and they all look healthy.

P.S. I have a big python water changer thing. When I do water changes, I connect the python water changer to my sink, turn on the water and it sucks out the water from my tank. However when I want to do the opposite and let the water from my sink go into the tank (how do I do this process with fish in it. Because I thoght Ottawa water has chlorine and it would kill fish? Please help

[dpatte]

i have kept almost the same combination in a tank with no real issues (I had clown loaches and redtaill botia instead of hillstreams.

There is something that people don't quite understand about cycling. The nitrogen cycle bacteria need a CONSTANT supply of ammonia (artificially or from the fish) or they will die back. If you went 5 days without any fish, your bacteria may have died back to the point where there is hardly any nitrogen cycle at all.

[Fishnut]

Yes, I agree.  Despite the fact that you kept the old media and you used an established filter, you killed of almost all the beneficial bacteria that had built up in both when you left it empty for 7 days.  The bacteria  starved and died back.  Now they have something to eat so the bacteria are multiplying to match the level of waste.  This is why you should wait at least a week...2 weeks would be better...between fish additions.  You need to give the bacteria a chance to catch up.

The fact that you have been loosing fish regularly is leading me to believe that the cycle is still in progress.  Please post the new test results when you get them.

I'm not too sure about the harlequins in with all those semi-agressive fish.  You didn't mention them in your final list.  How many are left?

[masoud100]

No I do not have harlequins anymore as I returned them for Tiger Barbs. I decided I want a semi-aggressive tank. Regarding the cycling remember I used the filter from my running tank which was good so shouldn't it have cycled the tank for those 5 days. I forgot to mention I had a Betta fish during the so called fishless cycle in order for it to produce waste and cycle it faster. The betta is still alive after being used as a cycle fish and is in my other tank.

Also can someone tell me what to stock my tank with...so I have 3 bala shark (2.5 inches), 1 red tail black shark (2 inches), 10 tiger barbs, and 1 hillsteam loach. I shop at Big Als, La Niche and Petsmart so take that into consideration. I want a semi-agressive aquarium. I can sell the hillsteam loach in order to get other fish compatable. I am thinking of a crayfish (not sure if its compatable), or maybe add 5 to 10 more tiger barbs. Give me some suggestions

[Fishnut]

Regarding the cycling remember I used the filter from my running tank which was good so shouldn't it have cycled the tank for those 5 days. I forgot to mention I had a Betta fish during the so called fishless cycle in order for it to produce waste and cycle it faster.

Is there anything else you're forgetting to tell us?  This story seems to be evolving the more we explain to you.  Initially, there was never any mention of the filters from established tanks, now the betta?  We all make mistakes in this hobby so when help is needed, you need to be honest about everything from the beginning so people who have been keeping fish for decades can actually help.

You're not understanding the cycle process.  I know you used that filter, but you moved it from a tank that had a higher level of waste being generated and put it in a tank with an extremely low low level of waste.  This change means that the beneficial bacteria died back to the level where there was enough to keep the betta's waste under control, which is as close to nothing in a tank that size.  Then you started adding fish really quickly, not giving the bacteria enough time to catch up to the new level of waste.  The cycling process is a continuous thing that has to be cultured.  The difference is that in an established tank, the bacteria are already present and balanced to the level of waste in a tank.  They do their jobs efficiently so that the toxic ammonia and Nitrates are broken down right away.  When they die back and you expect the now tiny amount of bacteria to do the same job as it did on the more established tank, it just physically can't until the culture grows to match.  You would have been better off adding all these fish right away with the established filter media than waiting 5 days.

Are you going to get the water tested?  There's not much that can be figured out until you do...if you still need help with the dying fish.

Research the fish you have.  The fish are small now because they're babies.  You're going to have a very full tank sooner than you think without having to add a single additional fish.  Bala sharks grow to aprox 10 - 14".  People who have had them at that size recommend a tank well over 100 gallons to keep them as adults. 

[dpatte]

It still misses the point. There is no such thing as 'cycled'. Its how much your system can cycle. If you had only a betta in there for 5 days, you only had enough of a 'cycle' left to maintain the ammonia from one betta.

When I do a fishless cycle, I get the tank to consume 5PPM of ammonia per day, and then I keep adding 5 PPM of ammonia per day until the day I throw in the fish.

I think this may be the biggest misconception on the hobby. The point is to build up your cycle to consume a certain amount of ammonia per day until the day you add the fish. If you 'cycle' a tank, then withdraw the ammonia, you will reduce the ammonia consumption bacteria down to nothing again.

I have 8 tanks with no fish, but I add ammonia to them every day even though they 'cycled' that amouint of ammonia weeks ago. I have to keep up the ammonia to keep the tank 'cycling'.

[exv152]

Also can someone tell me what to stock my tank with...so I have 3 bala shark (2.5 inches), 1 red tail black shark (2 inches), 10 tiger barbs, and 1 hillsteam loach. I shop at Big Als, La Niche and Petsmart so take that into consideration. I want a semi-agressive aquarium. I can sell the hillsteam loach in order to get other fish compatable. I am thinking of a crayfish (not sure if its compatable), or maybe add 5 to 10 more tiger barbs. Give me some suggestions

I have one impotant suggestion, stop adding fish until your system has been running for six weeks and you have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and your nitrates are between 10-20ppm. Then you'll know you're good to add more. Even then you can only add a small amount at one given time. Planting the tank heavily will also help reduce the toxic threat.

[Nerine]

Hope you know your Bala Shark will reach 12 inches...a tank of 5 feet or more is recommended for them due to their size and swimming strength! Your 55 will hold the Bala's for a short while, but not their whole lives.

[blueknight0303]

as far as i can tell, tank was never cycled... the bigger your tank the longer time it needs to be cycled. hillstream loaches are very sensitive and need a very old tank.

do u have deadzones (area where little or no water flow)
did u do water changes during the cycling period?
how is your lighting?
whats your feeding schedule and what do you feed on everyone?
do you have plants?
strong air pump?

i highly doubt all the other fish killed the loach because they are all middle swimmers and hillstreams rarely move from its position. if you want to keep your current hillstream, try feeding less and let the tank cycle on its own. maybe 10% water change every week,  adding bacteria supplement at the same time and feed once every other day. you dont have to shut down your tank.. im suggesting for you to get nutrafin instant cycle. do this for 1 week and never ever change nor clean ur filter for at least a month. make it dirty as possible. possible algae might appear and if it does, its a good thing because it means your tank is cycling properly.

bala sharks, barbs and and red tailed shark are very hardy so they are fine with half finished cycling and if you want to add more hillstream, id wait for about a month or 2.

and nerine is right.. bala shark can grow for 8-12 inches in 2-4 years depending on the feeding. if you really want to keep this much fish on this tank, get a sump or canister filter for 70 gallons.

[sylros]

P.S. I have a big python water changer thing. When I do water changes, I connect the python water changer to my sink, turn on the water and it sucks out the water from my tank. However when I want to do the opposite and let the water from my sink go into the tank (how do I do this process with fish in it. Because I thoght Ottawa water has chlorine and it would kill fish? Please help

I use one of those as well and had the exact same concerns. Apparently the churn that it creates aerates the water such that it eliminates the toxic stuff. But just to make sure, I add some Prime in the tank itself and never had a problem.

[dpatte]

i have tried pythons. now i use just a standard hose. When I fill a tank, I add the declorinator drop by drop as I add new water to the tank.

[blueknight0303]

I use one of those as well and had the exact same concerns. Apparently the churn that it creates aerates the water such that it eliminates the toxic stuff. But just to make sure, I add some Prime in the tank itself and never had a problem.

++

[masoud100]

Well my tank is now stable. Currently I have 3 Bala Sharks, 1 Red Tail Black Shark, 1 double Red Apistogramma, 10 Tiger Barb and 10 Green Tiger Barb (they swim together), and 1 HillStream Loach.

I currently am starting to get algea on my aquarium glass, what should I do. Is there anything that eats that. I am thinking of getting rid of the Hillstream Loach and/or Bala Sharks any alternatives.

[Fishnut]

You never posted the results of your water testing.  Did you test it?  What made you determine it's stability?

I currently am starting to get algea on my aquarium glass, what should I do.

Get an algae scrubber and start a regular scrubbing routine.  Busy nose plecos are good but you still may need to scrub.

I am thinking of getting rid of the Hillstream Loach and/or Bala Sharks any alternatives.

That's up to you.  I'm not a fan of buying fish and getting rid of them so quickly.  What's the point in getting them in the first place?  That's just me though.  Do your research BEFORE purchasing species that goes beyond asking someone at the fish shops who may or may not know what they're talking about.  It'll save you from constantly having to return fish.  Also, with the bala sharks in the tank...as myself and others have mentioned already...you do not have enough room for the fish you currently have, let alone more.

Interesting...an apistogramma in the tank now.  I would never in a million years mix them with tiger barbs because of the boisterous nature of the tiger barbs.

[blueknight0303]

lol! im surprised ur apistograma is still intact with 20 barbs on ur tank... if they are doing well i suggest just keeping your tank the way they are atm.

[masoud100]

Well being in the fish hobby for over a year and a half I am still making mistakes. I cant find my Apistogramma anywhere (think its dead). Came home and see one of my green tiger barbs swimming upside down. My plants are starting to look dirty, some always float up out of the florite. I am angry about the live plants idea since I think I am doing a bad job.

Somebody help me

[Fishnut]

We've been trying.  

Please re-read the previous posts...specifically about properly testing your water (you never posted the results that I asked for to help figure things out) and about what cycling a tank is REALLY all about.

My 20+ years in the fish hobby is telling me that your tank is not cycling properly.  There are several reasons for that but I can't even begin to speculate until you share what your water parameters are.  Making matters worse is the fact that you have not been researching your fish properly.

So, it's up to you.  We can only help those who are willing to learn and listen.

[masoud100]

Ok so my water test results were all good nitrate, etc 0. My apistogramma seems dead, or disapeared. Not in the tank at all. So my stocking is 10 tiger barbs, 10 green tiger barbs, 3 bala sharks, 1 red tail black shark, and 1 hillstream loach. I need stocking suggestions. Its a planted tank with no co2 but it has 2 T5 HO bulbs. I could sell the bala sharks and hillstream loaches in order to make accomadation. I now have 2 AquaClear 50s running. I usually always shop at Big Als, or PetsMart unless there is a better price elsewhere.

I will post pictures soon of how my tank looks like. I will be getting 1 or 2 java moss as I heard it sucks the algea off the glass like a magnet. So what are good tankmates for Tiger Barbs I like to have an exciting colourful tank. How about Gouramis?

Any suggestions help, please include which fish I should add and quantity. Thanks

[76brian]

Nitrates are at 0?

What about Nitrite and Ammonia?

[masoud100]

everything  is good. I need stocking ideas now

[sylros]

Here's a link to a compatibility chart for tiger barbs. No gouramis or anything with long fins.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/fwcompatibility_chart.cfm

Oh and about the java moss...it certainly doesn't do that, it needs to be tied to a piece of wood. Even if you let grow, it doesn't climb the tank walls. If ever you see something like that, it's because they've put a mesh cloth behind and attached it to the tank.

The think that works for me to get rid of my algae on the glass is zebra snails. They do a marvelous job and are usually available at big Al's...pet smart is hit or miss.

[76brian]

everything  is good. I need stocking ideas now

4. Pets Mart said 0
5. Petsmart said 0
6. Petsmart said 0

Define "good"? This is not possible. If nitrates are 0 for this length of time with that amount of fish, either your tank isn't cycled and there's still ammonia or nitrite present, or you aren't doing the test correctly. There should be SOME amount of nitrate in a well established tank.

Regardless, SOMETHING is killing your fish and it's probably not a good idea to look for new stock until you figure that out.

[Fishnut]

It's a common mistake for newbies in the hobby to assume that 0 across the board is good. 

It's just proof that someone is either not being honest in order to get what they want at whatever cost or that they are too embarrassed to admit to the bad water.

When I worked at the fish shops in my youth, I used to get readings like that from my customers and ask them to go home and bring me a container of tank water, not tap water...LOL!!  The shop I worked at had a policy where people were required to provide a water sample that tests good in order to receive the 2 week guarantee on fish.  Great policy IMO!!  You should have seen the shock on their faces when I caught them trying to be sneaky!!

I'm not willing to suggest that ANY fish be added at this point.

[Peekay]

Stocking idea:
Wait for 4 consecutive weeks with no illness/mortality before adding anything else. 

[Peekay]

Here's a link to a compatibility chart for tiger barbs. No gouramis or anything with long fins.

http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/fwcompatibility_chart.cfm

Good chart!  bookmarking!

[charlie]

Define "good"? This is not possible. If nitrates are 0 for this length of time with that amount of fish, either your tank isn't cycled and there's still ammonia or nitrite present, or you aren't doing the test correctly. There should be SOME amount of nitrate in a well established tank.

Regardless, SOMETHING is killing your fish and it's probably not a good idea to look for new stock until you figure that out.

Well said .