OVAS PAR Meter

[Jimbo]

Hi all,

I think at some time or another we all have questions about our tank lighting for our planted or reef tanks.

Does anyone else think we should petition OVAS to buy a PAR meter (such as the Quantum MQ 200) for the club? The club could then either lend or rent it to members. There might be a need for 2 sensors (one for marine and one for fresh water tanks) to prevent cross contamination of copper, etc...

The other option is for club members to team together to independently buy a meter!

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

[freshfishies]

It's funny you should bring this up!
I just read about this in Amazonas mag, how other clubs provide this meter for their members and I was going to bring it up at the next exec meeting.

[daworldisblack]

Like ++

[exv152]

Yes to the club par meter...

[Cheebs]

This sounds like a great idea. I'd pitch in for sure! Which reminds me yet again to renew my membership! More perks like this could definitely lead to more memberships as well 

[androo303]

A definit perk of being part of a paid membership group. +++

[bizfromqc]

Good idea, why stop it at the PAR meter really...

I'd chip in and/or rent, either way.

+1

[ataller]

Did anything ever happen with this?

[exv152]

A descent PAR meter like the apogee instruments costs between $150 and $365 depending on the model. These units are commonly used in the hydroponics industry. PAR meters would be useful across the board in this hobby from coral reef hobbyists to the planted tank folks. It would be a great incentive for members only, and maybe it would encourage others to get their memberships.

[charlie]

At this time it is not in the works, we have a plate full of projects to deal with and as it is we don`t have the resources to acomplish all of it, perhaps if & when the club turns the corner this  maybe something we can handle.
Regards

[Djokher]

Well well......I have access to one took some mesurement in my tank.....Those Radion LED are well above minimal spec for SPS's

[Darth]

a par meter would be worth the price of membership for me

[ajm1961]

Any ideas on how an instrument of this price and sensitivity can be effectively shared between members? Library books is one thing, but this is a little riskier.
For example, how do we ensure it wasn't damaged from one person to the next? Who would look after the check-in/check-out (and calibration/check after each use)? How much time should it go out for? A full month between meetings like books? Or a week? Would the person in charge want to have that much traffic going to/fro their place for pickup?
I'm not against the idea, it may have some merit, but there are a lot of considerations here.
Again, any ideas?

[Stussi613]

Any ideas on how an instrument of this price and sensitivity can be effectively shared between members? Library books is one thing, but this is a little riskier.
For example, how do we ensure it wasn't damaged from one person to the next? Who would look after the check-in/check-out (and calibration/check after each use)? How much time should it go out for? A full month between meetings like books? Or a week? Would the person in charge want to have that much traffic going to/fro their place for pickup?
I'm not against the idea, it may have some merit, but there are a lot of considerations here.
Again, any ideas?

I think you've nailed all the reasons it isn't feasible in your thread.  I also think it has merit, but it would be very hard to do.

[charlie]

Any ideas on how an instrument of this price and sensitivity can be effectively shared between members? Library books is one thing, but this is a little riskier.
For example, how do we ensure it wasn't damaged from one person to the next? Who would look after the check-in/check-out (and calibration/check after each use)? How much time should it go out for? A full month between meetings like books? Or a week? Would the person in charge want to have that much traffic going to/fro their place for pickup?
I'm not against the idea, it may have some merit, but there are a lot of considerations here.
Again, any ideas?

+ - a cash  security deposit to the cost of the meter.

[Wooki]

Any ideas on how an instrument of this price and sensitivity can be effectively shared between members? Library books is one thing, but this is a little riskier.
For example, how do we ensure it wasn't damaged from one person to the next? Who would look after the check-in/check-out (and calibration/check after each use)? How much time should it go out for? A full month between meetings like books? Or a week? Would the person in charge want to have that much traffic going to/fro their place for pickup?
I'm not against the idea, it may have some merit, but there are a lot of considerations here.
Again, any ideas?

I think a PAR meter is a great idea.

To implement, one would have to have a cash deposit, a small rental fee to pay for the inevitable wear (much larger rental fee for non-members) and a contract.  Perhaps take a reading with a set up before they take it, and when they return it it should show the 'same' reading at the same set up.

[Darth]

I agree the logistics in this could be very hard, then how do you limit it, it should be for members and/or people with long standing forum members problem is someone could sign up for  a membeship pay a deposit, and walk away with the meter and never be heard from again there are most likely too many risks involved so although it may seem like a great idea, I don't think its honestly a forseeable thing to do to many negative factors will outweight the benefits

[exv152]

I think the club needs to evolve, and this a fabulous idea. We need more creative ideas in the club, new things that will spark life into this floundering club, rather than have negative comments or excuses for not trying something new. The PAR meter is an excellent idea, it will not only generate new memberships, but it would also be inline with what other aquarium societies are offering its membership in Canada and the US. Like Errol said, a large cash security deposit should suffice.  Or having a specific member of the club do readings for others. Or we could even have a meeting all about lighting where we measure everyone's lighting - because water is not needed to do these readings. In the end if the idea didn't generate enough interest, the club could auction off the meter, or sell it, these units have a high resale value. There's little downside to this idea.

[JetJumper]

I think the club needs to evolve, and this a fabulous idea. We need more creative ideas in the club, new things that will spark life into this floundering club, rather than have negative comments or excuses for not trying something new. The PAR meter is an excellent idea, it will not only generate new memberships, but it would also be inline with what other aquarium societies are offering its membership in Canada and the US. Like Errol said, a large cash security deposit should suffice.  Or having a specific member of the club do readings for others. Or we could even have a meeting all about lighting where we measure everyone's lighting - because water is not needed to do these readings. In the end if the idea didn't generate enough interest, the club could auction off the meter, or sell it, these units have a high resale value. There's little downside to this idea.

Water is required for an accurate reading as water greatly effects the results from the PAR Meter.  You can still do it without water but the results will be different.  Personally a par meter is a great idea and even if there was a rental charge I am sure it would pay for itself in no time. 

[charlie]

I know if i was a aquatic shop owner/manager, this would be something i would jump on, more so if i was selling saltwater related  lights.

[ajm1961]

I agree with Errol that it would certainly be easier for a business to rent out a PAR meter than it would be for the club. At the same time, I recognize the value this may have for some members. What we need is to iron out a workable process and identify someone reliable and willing to be responsible for the rental, reservations, and calibration. Any decision would need to be taken at an upcoming executive meeting.
I'm not against the idea, but it needs work.
If anyone knows how other clubs are implementing this, please pass the info along.

[Darth]

I agree with Errol that it would certainly be easier for a business to rent out a PAR meter than it would be for the club.

I don't get why it would be easier for a retailer it's a liabilty either way the only differnce I see here is a shift in responsibilty whether its a retailer or the club all the risks are still there just the burden of those risk shifts to a retailer, so can someone please explain how it would be easier for retail, because if its a location to aquire, it was already mentioned that someone could be the "arranged" pick up drop off person, is it the deposit, well I thought the club had a treasurer someone who handles the finances, I was just pondering this, and it just seems like its a good idea some believe ( I personally don't although I would love to use one) but would rather someone else do it, sure sounds like passing the buck to me

[ajm1961]

"Passing the buck"? As it stands the volunteers in the exec already have quite a few responsibilities. The current treasurer is also 7 months pregnant.
Just so we know and consider in a decision in a future exec meeting - no guarantees at this point - is there anyone who would like to volunteer to be the point person to:
- Oversee the financial transactions for the security deposit (process to be determined)
- Make arrangements for pick-up/drop-off
- Take all info from the member (signed agreement)
- Keep records of the transactions
- Calibrate and test equipment before and after each use
- Provide input into written process
- Ultimately be responsible for the meter and report activities and issues to the exec

[exv152]

Water is required for an accurate reading as water greatly effects the results from the PAR Meter.  You can still do it without water but the results will be different.  Personally a par meter is a great idea and even if there was a rental charge I am sure it would pay for itself in no time.

PAR values will be the same with air or water. Hoppy the lighting guru from the Sacramento aquatic plant society talks about it in the second paragraph of this link http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774&highlight=PAR
. In another post he goes on to talk about how the water actually intensifies the lighting because of a reflective effect off the side panels of glass, compared to when the tank is empty (air only). See post # 115 on http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774&highlight=PAR&page=8
This is why it's important, when doing readings in an empty tank, to take them from the center and the bottom of the tank.

"Passing the buck"? As it stands the volunteers in the exec already have quite a few responsibilities. The current treasurer is also 7 months pregnant.
Just so we know and consider in a decision in a future exec meeting - no guarantees at this point - is there anyone who would like to volunteer to be the point person to...

Like I said earlier, the club doesn't have to lend or rent the meter if it's too large of a liability. The club could have one designated person who knows how to operate the meter, and volunteer to bring it to meetings where club members could bring their lighting systems to be measured. That way it doesn't run the risk of being lost, damaged or stolen.

[ajm1961]

Quote: The club could have one designated person who knows how to operate the meter, and volunteer to bring it to meetings where club members could bring their lighting systems to be measured.

I like that idea. We could bring it to meetings or other events, and people can bring their lights to be checked. Makes things a lot simpler!

[Fishnut]

Yes...that would be better than loaning it out.  I'll admit that I'm not comfortable with loaning out something that fragile and that expensive when the group only gets together once per month.  There's a lot that can happen in a month.

We'll have to get one of those metal cases with shaped sponge pads in it to transport it to and from meetings...unless it comes in one already?

[Stussi613]

So here's the big question, how many people who weren't interested in buying a membership to the club would join if OVAS bought a light meter and made it available at club meetings to test their lights?

[ajm1961]

You're right Stewart. However, the PAR meter could be made available at other "sanctioned" or associated events, such as at the "Plantaholics" meetings. Again, this would be dependant on the availability of the person (or persons) in charge of the meter.
It might be doable.
Whether or not that would encourage people to join the club, that's one thing. But hey it could encourage people to come out and meet other hobbyists at one of these events... who knows?

[charlie]

I don't get why it would be easier for a retailer it's a liabilty either way the only differnce I see here is a shift in responsibilty whether its a retailer or the club all the risks are still there just the burden of those risk shifts to a retailer, so can someone please explain how it would be easier for retail, because if its a location to aquire, it was already mentioned that someone could be the "arranged" pick up drop off person, is it the deposit, well I thought the club had a treasurer someone who handles the finances, I was just pondering this, and it just seems like its a good idea some believe ( I personally don't although I would love to use one) but would rather someone else do it, sure sounds like passing the buck to me

For several reasons
A retailer more than likely is set up to do ATM, Credit card+cash= more options of paying the security
A retailer has a fixed location with fixed hours in most cases = more convenient for customers to pick up drop off.
income tax claim
Not to mention the added bonus of marketing his lighting products .
Don`t know but you, but again if i was in the buisness of LFS this is the perfect marriage just saying.
Errol

[JetJumper]

how many people who weren't interested in buying a membership to the club would join if OVAS bought a light meter

YES, but...

and made it available at club meetings to test their lights?

No, I want to test in my tank setting.. sorry.

[exv152]

So here's the big question, how many people who weren't interested in buying a membership to the club would join if OVAS bought a light meter and made it available at club meetings to test their lights?

Count me in. But it's not about drawing new members as much as it is about providing an important instrument/service to its established members. This kind of goes back to offering perks to members, to make purchasing a membership and retaining a worthwhile endeavour.

[Wooki]

So here's the big question, how many people who weren't interested in buying a membership to the club would join if OVAS bought a light meter and made it available at club meetings to test their lights?

I definitely would join for this.  One could offer the PAR reading for free if you bring your lights to the meeting, and have a rental fee (with full deposit) if you want to bring it home and measure in the water.

[xmai77]

So here's the big question, how many people who weren't interested in buying a membership to the club would join if OVAS bought a light meter and made it available at club meetings to test their lights?

I bought an OVAS membership for the first time last year and I found it was absolutely useless for me! The meets were held Mondays which coincided with a volleyball league I play in so I was never able to attend. The "discounts" weren't really all that useful to me. I was not planning on renewing my membership this year, but if the club acquired a PAR meter then I would most likely renew!

[Jimbo]

Well, I started this thread, and I'm already a member. I definately believe a Par meter is of value to the members, and will draw new members to the club.

I'm certain that a process could be devised by the executives to rent equipment, or if they are too busy they could create a sub committee to draft a process for them. I'm sure there are members willing to assist with this - I know I would.

To be honest, i'm surprised there isn't already a process in place to track items on loan from the club.

Hopefully this will be a chance to build greater interest in OVAS beyond the traditional presentations and meetings.

[Stussi613]

Well, I started this thread, and I'm already a member. I definately believe a Par meter is of value to the members, and will draw new members to the club.

I'm certain that a process could be devised by the executives to rent equipment, or if they are too busy they could create a sub committee to draft a process for them. I'm sure there are members willing to assist with this - I know I would.

To be honest, i'm surprised there isn't already a process in place to track items on loan from the club.

Hopefully this will be a chance to build greater interest in OVAS beyond the traditional presentations and meetings.

The only items the club lends out, as far as I know, are the holdings in the library...and I track those. It would make perfect sense to add it to the library...however:

I know it's easy to say things like "take a deposit" in relation to lending it out, but the club doesn't have a way to handle deposits from credit cards and like others have said the only way to ensure it comes back is to charge a high deposit in regards to the value. Another issue is ensuring that the equipment is returned in good condition and that includes testing it against a known baseline lighting system to ensure it comes back the way it went out. With all due respect holding onto large sums of money and testing equipment once a week isn't something I care to add to my full time job, part time photography work AND volunteering for the club, not to mention having people coming to my house to pick it up, or meeting them somewhere else to facilitate dropping it off.

Errol has clearly thought about these things, hence his recommendation for a local business to purchase one and make it available to people in the club, as well as customers not in the club for a fee.

Make no mistake the exec, and I don't speak for all of them, aren't summarily dissmissing the idea of the PAR meter, it's just more complicated than bouncing the idea around on the forum.

[charlie]

Well, I started this thread, and I'm already a member. I definately believe a Par meter is of value to the members, and will draw new members to the club.

I'm certain that a process could be devised by the executives to rent equipment, or if they are too busy they could create a sub committee to draft a process for them. I'm sure there are members willing to assist with this - I know I would.

To be honest, i'm surprised there isn't already a process in place to track items on loan from the club.

Hopefully this will be a chance to build greater interest in OVAS beyond the traditional presentations and meetings.

Hi Jimbo, your suggestion was looked into but sadly the club is not in a position to take this on at the present time.
The good news is there is a sponsor who is willing to take it on, so all is not loss.
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54672.0
Regards

[Jimbo]

Hi Jimbo, your suggestion was looked into but sadly the club is not in a position to take this on at the present time.
The good news is there is a sponsor who is willing to take it on, so all is not loss.
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54672.0
Regards

Can you provide the reason why the club isn't in a position to take this on.

From reviewing the thread you identified, this is about renting lights.

[charlie]

Can you provide the reason why the club isn't in a position to take this on.

From reviewing the thread you identified, this is about renting lights.

I think i did previously but here it is again
Cost of the unit, fragile nature of the unit, policing the hand out & return, amount of security deposit required etc.( inabilty to process credit card etc)
The thread i pointed you to was a sponsor who is willing to take this on, but no one has shown interest in his offer - WHY?
Hope that answers your questions

[Jimbo]

...
I'm certain that a process could be devised by the executives to rent equipment, or if they are too busy they could create a sub committee to draft a process for them. I'm sure there are members willing to assist with this - I know I would.
...

As I mentioned earlier, if there is enough interest, the members will find a solution to make this work.

[robt18]

This idea has been thrown around a few times.

These cost hundreds of dollars. If ANYONE possibly broke it in any way, they would have to pay for it. Ray has also suggested in his offering that a 100% of price deposit would have to be given to rent it.

As volunteers running the club, we don't want to have to chase people down to return it, be responsible for $400 cash deposits, or have to test it every time someone returns it and argue with them if it has been damaged or not.

It is truly something that is not feasible for the club, it will not be happening.

[exv152]

... the club doesn't have to lend or rent the meter if it's too large of a liability. The club could have one designated person who knows how to operate the meter, and volunteer to bring it to meetings where club members could bring their lighting systems to be measured. That way it doesn't run the risk of being lost, damaged or stolen.

I mentioned this earlier and it seems to have been completely overlooked in the discussion. Other clubs in the US do this, but if it's not feasible because of the cost of purchasing it, then I would understand. That said, I'm glad a sponsor has stepped up. Lighting is such a key element in the hobby and it tends to be often overlooked.

[Jimbo]

I mentioned this earlier and it seems to have been completely overlooked in the discussion. Other clubs in the US do this, but if it's not feasible because of the cost of purchasing it, then I would understand. That said, I'm glad a sponsor has stepped up. Lighting is such a key element in the hobby and it tends to be often overlooked.

I agree with you completely about cost, but the Apogee light meter only costs $150.

Whatever happened to the poll of forum users asked by Stussi613, if they would become members if OVAS purchased a Par meter? Was there not enough interest shown by potential new members to cover the cost?

[charlie]

I agree with you completely about cost, but the Apogee light meter only costs $150.

Whatever happened to the poll of forum users asked by Stussi613, if they would become members if OVAS purchased a Par meter? Was there not enough interest shown by potential new members to cover the cost?

I surrender
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/apogee-mq-200-par-meter
http://blog.captive-aquatics.com/captive_aquatics/2010/08/apogee-mq-200-quantum-par-meter-video-review.html

[JetJumper]

I agree with you completely about cost, but the Apogee light meter only costs $150.

Whatever happened to the poll of forum users asked by Stussi613, if they would become members if OVAS purchased a Par meter? Was there not enough interest shown by potential new members to cover the cost?

No Jimbo.. its not only $150.  The sensor is $150 if you order it by itself I do believe.  The Kit can be had for $300-350 for an Apogee.

[JetJumper]

There is a $200 par meter.. Its integrated into a monitoring system..

http://www.seneye.com/


You can also get the raw sensor and create your own PAR meter with a multimeter.  There is a simple calculation if I recall correctly that you can do to convert the multimeters output from the resistence levels on the photo sensor and calculate PAR yourself   Probably possible for under $50 including a multimeter 

If you are feeling up to the task   Then you can make some cash renting it out to people in the club.

[Jimbo]

My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[76brian]

I like the DIY meter posted in another thread. I'm going to make one. It could be a good club project?

[exv152]

If you take a lux reading and divide the value by 76 that gives you fairly accurate PAR value.

[Jimbo]

I like the DIY meter posted in another thread. I'm going to make one. It could be a good club project?

I agree. We should either get this added as one of the presentations, or set up a separate meeting (outside OVAS) for people interested in learning how to make their own Par meter.