The new growth on some of my faster growing plants is looking a bit crinkly and deformed. Is there a specific macro or micro fert I should toss in? I cant test for nutrients aside from nitrate and calcium so I was hoping there was a typical quick fix for this issue.
Any ideas?
Kennyman , without knowing the details of your tank, i would suspect a calcium deficiency.
Regards
Thanks for the help so far Charlie. I will post what test results I can do tonight when I get home from work.
1.5 wpg
no co2
fluorite enhanced soil based substrate
55gal
20% waterchange once every second week
PH 7.8 as of last week
I have not been adding anything for the past three months that the tank has been running. It is sort-of a Walstad style tank. The plants showing the possible deficiency are the fast growers. The vallis and Hygro. The Annubias, java fern, moss, sword, lotus and crypt dont seem to be effected yet. The ph is high and I think that might be from every last bit of co2 being scoured out.
What are the gH levels in your tank? If you have a calcium deffeciency, then you'd have a low gH.
I agree with charlie though, deformed growth on new leaves is usually a lack of calcium.
Ca 100 ppm
PH 8.4!!
Nitrate 0
I added a capfull of Flourish for the heck of it. I suppose adding a capfull a week could not hurt?
I am running some peat in a canister but It does not seem to be able to help with the PH. The ph in my tank is higher than my source water after it gasses off :-\
Could the high PH effect the plants ability to uptake Ca?
A boron deffeciency can also be the problem. Yes, adding Flourish is a good idea, as it will provide most of the micronutrients you need.
Kennymann, i don't know how heavily planted your tank is, but my guess is that you might have a lack of CO2 because of these reasons:
if the plants consumed all of the CO2 dissolved in the water they will try another method to get their needed carbonate:
1. they split the available calcium-hydrogencarbonte Ca(HCO3)2 into carbonic acid H2CO3 and CaCO3
2. they use the H2CO3 -> H2O + CO2 to get the CO2
the problem is that the CaCO3 will stay in the water and its levels will increase, means you will have harder water in the end
as a side-effect the pH will increase as 2x HCO3 will disappear in this process.
and this is exactly what you reported! therefore I think that the problems with plants growth in your tank are symptoms of a CO2 lack.
Carbonate precipitation doesn't typically happen in low light tanks. Plants will only try to convert carbonates when dissolved CO2 levels in the tank have been depleted and there is a demand for further CO2. In a low light tank, it is almost impossible to deplete CO2 faster than it can be equalized from the atmosphere.
Now, if you had 3 or 4 WPG over your tank, that's another story entirely.
Thanks for helping me understand this stuff. I will post an update in a while when I see if the flourish did the trick.
I know that a good planted tank needs co2 but I wanted to give the natural method a try and see if the soil can supplement co2 as it decays.
been there done that, but thanks for the suggestion :)
The reason behind not running co2 from the start on this tank was Walstads "EL'Natural" system. It is supposed to supply the plants with what they need with very little input on my part. So far it is working moderately well but I am having some minor algae issues and now this crinkly leaved thing.
We will see if a capfull a week of flourish helps, if not then I'll have to revisit the co2 issue and put some more effort into the tank.
Two 40W bulbs over a 55 gallon tank will never need CO2 in order to do well.
Using watts-per-gallon to say whether CO2 injection of some kind is needed is not sufficient. Its rather the the planting density and the growth rate of individual plants that will contribute to the overall CO2 balance. Many undemending fast growing plants, provided they find all other nutritiens, may indeed deplete the naturally provided CO2 in the tank - even in a so called "low light" tank. Increasing the light intensity on the other hand requires CO2 to give plants the chance to compete with alge.
Charlie posted some interesting links for this topic yesterday: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
So by referencing the water quality with a pH of 7.8 or above and doing the math (or using the table) you have very likely a lack of CO2 (unless you have very hard water)
Good luck with "EL'Natural" - I haven't heard of this method before.
A week has gone by and I have added 1/2 doses of Flourish twice. The Vallis has outgrown the crinkly spots with 1.5-2.0 in of good growth. I pruned the Hygro and all the new leaves look symmetrical and all is happy. :)
The vallis is funny looking though with these tortured gnarly places.
Good to hear Kenny, now you know that the plants need some food too ;).
Regards
I thought the subsoil and other substrate I used would have acted as a better reservoir for micros. But I guess it does not take into account what is carried by the 100's of 1000's of liters passing by every day in a true natural system.
Glad to here it was a micro problem after all.. pretty easy fix
Most of the time Calcium is present in enough quantity in freshwater setups. By the way hagen sale a decent cheap calcium test and if you know your GH you can calculate your magnesium level also (2 for the price of one)
It is known that all the alkali's
K > Na > Mg > Ca have influence on the calcium uptake, to much or to little concentration will influx on calcium absorption.
It seem that in certain cases even to much nitrates can disturb calcium absorption (i'm investigating on this one...
glad to hear everything is growing well! :)
I am also glad that i could learn something here :D (after all the worries I started about CO2 deficiencies ... )
Quote from: dan2x38 on June 14, 2007, 11:11:00 PM
you had me at hello... LOL I did not follow that... DOH... what? sorry I am in the slow class tonight... :-[
lol Dont worry Dan, I am a Groundskeeper (the real kind with trade papers) have four years of college education in related fields like Turf Management, Urban Tree management and Landscape design. About 60% of this stuff
STILL goes over my head ???
Sorry, my english is not the best, at time... :-\
I rephrase:
1— Calcium is rarely missing from Freshwater setup.
2— Hagen sale a decent cheap calcium test and if you know your GH you can calculate your magnesium level also (2 for the price of one)
3— It is known that all the alkali's like: K > Na > Mg, have influence on the calcium uptake, to much or to little concentration will influx on calcium absorption.
4— It seem that in certain cases even to much nitrates can disturb calcium absorption (i'm investigating on this one...
No worries Glouglou, it was pretty clear the first time, most people start to have their eyes glaze over whenever someone starts talking about anything scientific or mathematical. ;)
In fact, I would encourage you to keep talking, this way we would all benefit from getting accustomed to hearing it more regularly, then it wouldn't be so frightening. :)