Weighing the pros/cons with EI Stragey vr. PMDD before committing. Does any one using the EI method ever test their NO3 & PO4? If so what are your readings? Anyone ever had any algae issues? How big a WC change is average? I see the advantages of following the EI method but just worried about adding the extra NO3 & PO4. But don't like the idea of all the testing using PMDD plus the test kit costs will add up too. Another advantage of using dry ferts for me is the savings. Does anyone use Seachem Equilibrium after their WC?
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 01, 2007, 05:02:03 PM
Does any one using the EI method ever test their NO3 & PO4? If so what are your readings?
I do EI , tested the first few weeks & never did after ( that`s why i love it).
QuoteAnyone ever had any algae issues?
I id @ first , until i got my co2 levels sorted out, by dosing the EI way , the only other nutrient left to get right is co2 , the macros & micro nutrient is covered ( adequate) by EI
QuoteHow big a WC change is average?
i do 50 % each week & more sometimes
QuoteI see the advantages of following the EI method but just worried about adding the extra NO3 & PO4.
You should not be worried, what is it that worries you, the EI method is based on the platform of dosing a bit more than the plans need , so it is always readily available.
QuoteDoes anyone use Seachem Equilibrium after their WC?
I do , enough to raise my GH by 1 degree.
Dan the only problem i see you having @ 3 WPG doing EI , is the likelyhood of inconsistent co2 level as a result of the DIY co2.
Regards
I run 2 bottles at once alternating out a bottle each week... I use champage yeast it produces longer... with that in mind do you think it will maintain a high enough output? what if I added a little more yeast to each mixture since I am changing them often? with only 3w/g would a lower CO2 not balance out the lightin? Am setting myself up for failure? :o :(
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 01, 2007, 05:28:44 PM
I run 2 bottles at once alternating out a bottle each week... I use champage yeast it produces longer... with that in mind do you think it will maintain a high enough output? what if I added a little more yeast to each mixture since I am changing them often? with only 3w/g would a lower CO2 not balance out the lightin? Am setting myself up for failure? :o :(
Oh no , i`m not implying that you are heading for failure, it is do able with DIY, just a lot more attention needs to be paid to the co 2 levels . Any DIY co2 ( sugar & yeast) will have a heavy production of co2 & start to taper off after a while also temperature swings will affect the co2 levels ( more when it`s warm & less when it`s cool), if you are diligent in swapping out the bottles it is do able , BBA for one can creep in when your co2 levels keeps going up & down.
Adding more yeast will only help to increase the rate of co2 for a bit but will taper off faster, in short you want to try & keep your co2 levels consistent.
Regards
Is testing the KH/pH ratio accurate for determing CO2 levels? How about taking a water sample test pH the 24 hrs. later test again if the change is .5 it's 15ppm, if it is 1.0 then it's 30ppm is this accurate?
What is the best way to determine my CO2 levels... if testing reveals low CO2 or flucations could I supplement with Excel?
PH is just a balance point Dan. It is an indication of the ratio (if you will) between acid compounds and alkaline compounds. Imagine a triangle: with any two sides you can figure out the distance of the third side.
PH / alkalinity / acidity
You can not easily test for acidity contributed by CO2 but you can know how much is there by knowing how it impacts the PH with a given alkalinity.
That help any?
Here is a thread that will give you some idea, why the ph/kh chart can be inaccurate , there are other factors as well such as decaying leaves etc.This thread also talks about the drop checker method, do a search on the same site for more in depth info on it
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/51854-how-do-you-determine-co2-levels.html.
to answer your question , i think ( only my thoughts ) the i degree drop overnight is a bit more accurate than thr ph/kh chart, incidently i don`t use any , i tried the drop checker , but the 4 DKH soultion needs to be accurate, i do the " chinese method" taught to me by my mentor " jetstream", raise the co2 until the fish start to gasp & then back it off ( not for everyone) ;D.
Regards
I suppose anotherthig you could do is leave the co2 off for two or three days for the water to return to natural levels. Test.
Then Run the co2 for a day and test again. The difference would be an very real indication of how much co2 your diy system is contribuing.
The non co2 enhanced reading would sever as a baseline for your specific tank conditions.
Well I read the link plus the ones they pointed and thanks for the murky clear picture... LOL I think I will use the sample water over 24 hrs. method. Still so much confussion on that one!
OK tonight trying to get a baseline of sorts. My KH is almost ZERO! pH is 6.6... Should I consider doing a WC and buffer with baking soda or tomorrow just get some Seachem Equilibrium or do nothing? I am concerned pH might start fluctuating... I've been trying to stabilize my DIY CO2 input at a higher level by frequent mixture changes... my bubble counter seems at a constant rate...
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 01, 2007, 09:58:31 PM
Well I read the link plus the ones they pointed and thanks for the murky clear picture... LOL I think I will use the sample water over 24 hrs. method. Still so much confussion on that one!
OK tonight trying to get a baseline of sorts. My KH is almost ZERO! pH is 6.6... Should I consider doing a WC and buffer with baking soda or tomorrow just get some Seachem Equilibrium or do nothing? I am concerned pH might start fluctuating... I've been trying to stabilize my DIY CO2 input at a higher level by frequent mixture changes... my bubble counter seems at a constant rate...
First of all , Seachem Equilibrium will do nothing for your
KH, if your KH is almost zero, it will be best to use baking soda to get it up to around 3 Dkh.
Seachem Equilibrium will address your GH, re -calcium & magnesium etc, it will also add some Potassium .
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 01, 2007, 09:58:31 PM
My KH is almost ZERO! pH is 6.6...
This is a very dangerous situation. With a KH close to zero (< 3dH) the water wont have any buffer capacity for the pH. Without buffer there is a very high risk that the pH crashes any time, means it suddently drops down to 4 or less. You should add a bit of baking soda (or do a WC) and maybe up the CO2 in the long run. But if you say that you just increased the CO2 output you may also double check your KH reading.
OK what a dunce!!!!!!! :-[ I had tested twice...
I decided to do a 3rd test because I was freaked... I tested an presto 3.5 - 4.0...
Take a guess what I figured out I did? I have KH & GH in one test kit... I used the GH test regeant it turns yellow then green for GH degrees... DOOOOH!!! The KH turns blue then yellow once I saw yellow I stopped...
I'm to stupid to live!!! :-[ :-\ :o
OK guys my 1st week using EI dosing. My 1st water change is tomorrow. Is it possible I would already being seeing results? I swear my plants have jumped to live! The coulors, growth rate, fullness... Or is just me trying to establish a higher CO2 level? I am impressed and loving it! :) Still reading the EI articles and surprised by what I missed the 1st time or understand better now... PO4 & NO3 vr. NH4 contributing to algae was an eye opener! I certainly thought it was PO4 & NO3 the culprits...
I got some hair algae on the leaves closest to the lights & a little spot algae. I took some readings: PO4 - 1.0 (increase), NO3 5.0 (same), Fe 0.25 (increase), KH 3.5 (same), GH 10 (increase). I reduced number of mils. for macro from 8 to 6. I also added 30 mils of excel. Changing DIY CO2 schedule to change bottles from every 7 days to every 5., I use 2 vbottle routation. Is there something else I should do to insure no algae blooms? Should my NO3 be higher?
TANKz
yes, the test kits are inaccurate in the low ranges.. you should be pushing closer to 10ppm ...
Dan , can you post what you are dosing @ the moment & what qty & how many times per week. Like Bd said test kits are inaccurate , more so in the lower range, i would suggest you hide that kit where you can`t find it for a while :D :).
Regards
My mixtures & dosing:
Macro Nutrients:
- 2 Tablespoons (36g) Potassium Sulphate
- 1 Tablespoon (17g) Potassium Nitrate
- 1 Teaspoon (4.8g) Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)
- 1 Tablespoon (16g) Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
- 500 ml treated water
Micro Nutrients:
- 1 Tablespoon (15g) Chelated Trace Element Mix
- 250 ml teated water
1st Day:
- 2 ml of Macro per 10 gallons (8mils), then every other day
2nd Day:
- 1 ml of Micro per 10 gallons (4 mils), then every other day
50% WC on 7th day then start dosing cycle again.
My plants are growing like mad & nice colours have never looked better. Just the hair algae on the top leaves near the water line is concerning me. I only just used the test kits becuase of the algae showing... I will hide them... :o
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 10, 2007, 02:43:58 PM
My mixtures & dosing:
Macro Nutrients:
- 2 Tablespoons (36g) Potassium Sulphate
- 1 Tablespoon (17g) Potassium Nitrate
- 1 Teaspoon (4.8g) Potassium Phosphate (monobasic)
- 1 Tablespoon (16g) Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate (Epsom Salts)
- 500 ml treated water
Micro Nutrients:
- 1 Tablespoon (15g) Chelated Trace Element Mix
- 250 ml teated water
1st Day:
- 2 ml of Macro per 10 gallons (8mils), then every other day
2nd Day:
- 1 ml of Micro per 10 gallons (4 mils), then every other day
50% WC on 7th day then start dosing cycle again.
My plants are growing like mad & nice colours have never looked better. Just the hair algae on the top leaves near the water line is concerning me. I only just used the test kits becuase of the algae showing... I will hide them... :o
Dan where did you get this dosing regime, it looks like you are doing the EI method, but making it a lot more complicated.
Check out this link, pick the size of tank you are dosing & follow the suggested guide lines, after a few weeks & depending on the response of the plants , you can tweak it up or down, if you are dosing your 38 gln. it looks like you are under dosing the tank. Keep it simple.
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/42-ei-light-those-less-techy-folks.html
Regards
Dan,
CA paradise on Bank st. sells a nice set of small measuring spoons, 1/32, 1/16 etc. Just look up the tank size in the link Charlie posted, I dump the dry ferts straight into the tank. It's super easy, I don't even own phosphate or nitrate test kits.. :-[.
Irene
Thanks Charlie I did not have that link... do you dose both micro & macro on the same days? I got rid of my SAEs but I have 3 nice size American Flag Fish... tonight I was watching them nibbling away at the little bit of hair algae... I love those guys... :)
Thanks Irene I will pick some up. Mine measures are 1/4 & 1/8 tsp. so not so bad... :)
Quote from: dan2x38 on October 10, 2007, 08:52:53 PM
Thanks Charlie I did not have that link... do you dose both micro & macro on the same days?
Same as you are doing now, macros on day 1, 3 & 5 - Micros/ trace element mix on day 2, 4 & 6.do nothing on day 7 , on day 8 ( day 1) large water change & restart your dosing regime.
Regards
Today I did my 50% WC. For 2 days prior I added no ferts. Out of 3 light tubes I shut 1 down. Should use all three? The hair algae is scaring me that it will bloom... :( I have my CO2 bottles cycling every 5 days to keep higher & more stable level. I dosed using the mixtures from the link Charlie posted. Is there something I can or should be doing to make sure the algae balances out? I did prune out as much of the leaves with hair algae on them I could.
Still getting hair algae build up? I pruned today getting rid of most of what was there. It is not a bloom but I would have to add, Yet!
What can I do to balance this and prevent further growth? I'm thinking on ditching the EI dosing. :(
Whats are your CO2 levels like now(KH/pH balance)? Inconsistent CO2 concentrations could be a contributing factor to your algae issue.
Don't forget, EI is for a heavily planted, lightly stocked tank. If your tank is not "heavily planted" then you will be adding more ferts to the water column than the plants can use. So algae will use it. However, once the plants tank off and you have a heavily planted tank, then the algae will subside.
Don't turn off lights, lights grow plants. Don't stop dosing ferts, ferts grow plants.
The reason you were getting algae is because you were SUPER dosing that tank. My 75 gallon only gets 3/4 tsp of NO3, 3/16 tsp of KH2PO4 and a 1/4 tsp of traces. You added a whack load more than that and only did a 50% water change. There are still tons of ferts in your water column.
Leave the lights on, make sure your CO2 is high all day and follow the dosing regime charlie linked to. Put away your test kits, don't worry about an initial bit of algae, and wait for the plants to settle in and start growing well.
OK BD... it is heavily planted! I have not used test kits since Charlie told me to hide them. I hate algae! Is this more like starting a new tank? I need to wait for a balance? So I should do larger WCs? approx. how long before things should settle down?
CO2 is close 25ppm last time I tested 3 weeks ago... I'm using DIY 2 bottle rotation... shortened my rotation so every 5 days I have a new mixture, each bottle gets changed every 10 days... I use champagne yeast it produces longer...