Ok,
Guess I've just got too much time on my hands tonight...
I've been thinking about stability of water in the tank and the impact that water changes have on the system combined with the side effect of sodium chloride build up (trace amounts) from the baling method, well I just got to thinking.... and... thinking how to do this cheaply.
What if we used a very-low flow pump that would pump water out of the system each day, say 2 or 3 times a day and then on a second pump take pre-mixed new water and pump it back into the tank... If we used timmers, the system could be "on" for several short periods each day... I do not know of any pumps that are "very-low flow" but I'd bet they exist.
Pro's...
Stable System
Simplified Water Changes
Lower maintenance
Possible issues:
a. Off the bat, if the flow-rates of the two pumps were not matched you could get into troubles... The only counter to this is testing salinity... but a refractometer makes that about 5seconds of work each day, so no big deal....
b. OMG, pump 1 failed, and emptied my system... or any other OMG moment... The only "backup" I could do cheaply would be to put the entire system on double timmers ($10 each x2 so $20 extra)... both timmers have to be "on" to allow power to go to the pumps...
c. evap vs skimmer waste - salinity issues... again, using a refractometer daily to monitor... and with larger volume systems, 100gallons and bigger, 2 gallons a day being changed, just wouldn't swing things too fast...
d. ATO's get complicated... this could cause changing water levels in a sump area, assuming that's where we do the water changes, therefore complicating the heck out of any ATO.
Still, with all that, i'm curious about cost:
* timmers are cheap $10 each and we need 2 per pump so $40
* low-flow pumps, talking 1liter / hr or so... 3liter/hr max kind of thing... Anyone know of any?
Other thoughts or ideas?
This sounds like a Profilux moment!
All issues with salinity could be covered with a conductivity probe. Diabling what ever you want if there is a swing detected.
All timers can be used in the Profilux. The timers can be set up for 1 minute increments.
Any OMG issues could be covered with level sensors.
Small pumps, how about a pair of MJ6's with a hose attached?
As for ATO, just add the new water first. I realize this is not ideal buuuuuut, if you put the new water in at the suction of the main feed pump it will be in the display when you pump out the old water.
Or if your ATO is run off the Profilux could you disable it during this time?
I know this is not the "cheap" answer, however, what is the system worth if there is an OMG HS YSOB moment?
you can use an aqualift pump
Quote from: JD on August 07, 2009, 06:16:29 AM
This sounds like a Profilux moment!
All issues with salinity could be covered with a conductivity probe. Diabling what ever you want if there is a swing detected.
All timers can be used in the Profilux. The timers can be set up for 1 minute increments.
Any OMG issues could be covered with level sensors.
Small pumps, how about a pair of MJ6's with a hose attached?
As for ATO, just add the new water first. I realize this is not ideal buuuuuut, if you put the new water in at the suction of the main feed pump it will be in the display when you pump out the old water.
Or if your ATO is run off the Profilux could you disable it during this time?
I know this is not the "cheap" answer, however, what is the system worth if there is an OMG HS YSOB moment?
JD, I agree that the proflux controller makes this easy... and, using two proflux dosing pumps, one to remove water and one to add water, is accurate to the ML... Having a 3rd dosing pump connected to "fresh" water and a conductivity probe solves all the problems... (and there's more than a good chance this is what I will do btw)...
BUT, not every one wants to invest $900+ just for semi-automated water-changes and ATO. :)
Also, I figured there has to be a pump that will work without costing an arm and a leg...
@winston, I googled those pumps and found too many and nothing specifically helpful... can you link some details on the pump you are referencing?
Tim,
If I remember correctly, FocusFin has a continuous, automatic water change system running. I'm not sure what kind of pumps he uses, but it might be worthwhile touching base with him.
Jerry
If you could get the tank of pre-mixed SW above the display though, you could use a small line to continuosly siphon new water in. Something like 10 drips per min or so would be lots. You could then put in a small overflow in your sump somewhere to allow the trickle of outflow to drain away (No OMG HS moments). It wouldn't matter if it ever lost prime or went dry, you'd only have to worry about the drain getting plugged up.
The hard part with using a pump, is that the flow you are looking for is so little that you need to have a valve after any pump, regardless of how small. Take the above example of 10 drips per min. Say each drip is 1ml, thats 14400 drips per day, or 14.4 L (3.8gal/day). It adds up quickly, but I'm not sure how big your tank is. You could try it out first with a 5 gal pail and some air line hose, see if you can get a good flow rate. It could work, but I guess its all kind of dependent upon whether or not you can elevate your clean SW tank.
If you're going to plumb something up with a pump, I would recommend a needle valve rather than a ball valve or a gate valve. You can't get low flow working very well with ball or gate valves, and adjusting them is a pain in the ace. You can get 3/8" or 1/2" sched 40 PVC from a plumbing store for about $15-20.
Quote from: QueensU on August 07, 2009, 08:09:59 PM
If you could get the tank of pre-mixed SW above the display though, you could use a small line to continuosly siphon new water in. Something like 10 drips per min or so would be lots. You could then put in a small overflow in your sump somewhere to allow the trickle of outflow to drain away (No OMG HS moments). It wouldn't matter if it ever lost prime or went dry, you'd only have to worry about the drain getting plugged up.
This would be a very bad idea. Constant inflow (even slow inflow) of new saltwater would inevitably increase the salinity in the main tank. Even if you had an ATO for fresh water topoff, the slow drip would likely stay ahead of it.
I would recommend 2 peristaltic pumps. (That's the dosing pump kind with the tube and the rotating arms.) Put them both on the same timer...and you can get digital timers that can go to a 1-minute interval and with 20 on/off settings per day at Rona and Home Depot for under $20. I have two, they're great, and they even have 2 plugs right on them.
Feed from new mix, outflow to drain, away you go.
Then your only problem is keeping the mix just right all the time. If you set up with a controller, you don't have to worry so much about the salinity of your new mix because the controller will add more of it or add fresh water to balance it all out.
Now, if you wanted the ultimate, then you'd want a Dialyseas: http://www.seavisions.com/prod02.htm
Quote from: Funkmotor on August 08, 2009, 02:06:45 AM
Now, if you wanted the ultimate, then you'd want a Dialyseas: http://www.seavisions.com/prod02.htm
Funkmotor: Neat piece. :o :)
Hookup: I thought you had most of the GHL stuff already? The probe is the only must have to me. I figured a couple small MJ's and off you go. I know MJ's probably flow too much, but, their discharge could be restricted with some sort of step down nipple.
Yes, I have all the parts to make this work in my house, other than the salinity probe.... which isn't that expensive... but there are two problems... first, I do not have any spare pumps any more (hehe, i changed things around last night) and second I was hoping to find a way that everyone could put one of these into there systems without $1000+ of controllers/probes/pumps... DIY, is about neat gadgets and lower costs... So this thread was hoping to start some conversations, which it certainly has...
Because I have the GHL, I will add the salinity probe to my system as a fail-safe, but weekly testing with a refractometer will still be required IMHO.
I like the timer + peristaltic pumps... I'll see what I can find, I'd bet the can be found on ebay quite easily...
Oh, and that Salnity machine... $3000 USD... + some extras top it off at about a $5k total after taxes, conversion and shipping cost... 8)
Parts:
Dosing Pump 50ml/day $100 each (http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/Plumbing-and-Pumps-Dosing-and-Peristaltic-Pumps/c14_53/p845/BRS-Top-Off-Doser-*New*-(50-mL-Per-Minute)/product_info.html)
HomeDepot Digital Timer 20intervals (srry could not find link, but I have 4 of them myself so I know they exist)
Damn, BRS doser is $100, each... No where as cheap as I was hoping...
2dosers, + 1 timer = $220+taxes & misc stuff... round it up to $300 (or $20 for your spouses purposes)... and this system would be zoom'n along...
So what does my $300 get me?
Water changes now are a factor of keeping your 50gallon barrel full of fresh-mix water. If you have a 100gallon system, you'll want to have a water change volume of around 5%/week or 20%/month. Continual changing methods are not as effective as straight-up 20% bulk changes, you lose a few % of the effective gallonage (RKM - Randy Fast Holmes article). But really, thats not to important... 20%/month in "trickle format" is about 18% water change over the month.. apples to apples by my standards...
So back to scenario... 100gallon system, targeting around 20gallons/month changes or roughly 0.65 gallons per day = 2.4L/day.
The pump linked above, does 50 ml/min so that's 49min of run time required each day. So take a few (or all ) of the 20 intervals and divide out the 49 min total run time as you like...
Your 50gallon drum will last for 2.5 months, though I would advise putting in some kind of pump to keep the water mixing... I would not worry about heating the water because of the really low mix/flow rates.
Every 2 months, mix up more salt-water and put it into your 50gallon barrel, go back to monitoring your levels like salinity, ph, temp, etc, etc... on your system.
Honestly, if $300 got everyone into better water-change habbits who needed better habbits, its not that bad of a deal.... IMHO
Anyone have any modifications or additions to this system????
Quote from: Hookup on August 08, 2009, 10:54:34 AM
2dosers, + 1 timer = $220+taxes & misc stuff... round it up to $300 (or $20 for your spouses purposes)... and this system would be zoom'n along...
LMAO^ oh the stuff she does not know your doing.
Trust me, this is NOT the first $20 purchase I've made... nor is she so naive that she thinks it's $20... but ask no questions, I'll tell you no lies... ;) ;)