Dear OVAS board members (and others who may be interested in putting their intelligent 2 cents in),
I've noticed that recently a change in the Forum Rules has taken place. There is simply one rule that I do not understand.
I'm currently wondering why you need to be an OVAS member in order to post in the classifieds section.
As I've stated in a previous discussion, I believe that the classifieds are important in order to preserve or "save" certain critters, especially those of the rare variety from being thrown out by aquarists that are getting out of the hobby, accidentally bought a individual of a species that would outgrow their tank, or that simply want to "renovate" their tank inhabitants, etc.
In Ottawa, currently, there are multiple animal shelters for unwanted pets, although I'm unaware of any that take in aquatic pets. In the saltwater side of the hobby, the amount of fish species that can be bred in captivity are limited, therefore, most fish are wild-caught. Many hobbyists here have traded wild-caught specimens and the specimen in question got transferred multiple times from one hobbyists to another due to the classifieds section and its easy accessibility. This may stop occurring if fees are added. Myself, I must admit that nearly 80% of the inhabitants of my nano-tank are from trades or buys coming from the classifieds section here.
As you may know, humans can't keep on consuming the way that we currently do. Usually, we start teaching in grade school about the concepts of Reduce, reuse and recycle. There are currently incredible environmental catastrophies and degradation of our natural world occurring, from oil spills that may reach the Florida keys, to oil tankers hitting the Great Barrier Reef, pollution in lake Tang and Victoria and the over harvesting of all sorts of species, pesticide use, bioaccumulation of chemical products, sewage problems causing hormonal unbalances amongst breeding fish, destruction of mangrove habitats for aquaculture of jumbo cocktail shrimp, etc.
I'm surprised that OVAS wouldn't keep on offering this service that was originally free to anyone in order to prevent the loss of these individuals of all sorts of species. Its important for members to reduce fish loss and wild-caught specimens, reuse unwanted pets and trade their coral/fish/equipment. I'm really confused since one of the objectives of OVAS is to 4. to work toward the conservation of endangered species. Some pets currently traded in this hobby are considered Endangered, Threatened or of Special Concern (or other classifications to identify legally protected species) by CITES, WAPRIITA, SARA and/or COSEWIC (e.g. all Hippocampus species are listed under WAPPRITTA and CITES). I also think that in order to prevent further wild-caught specimens to find themselves perish from being unwanted, we should be doing what we can locally. Every year in Canada, we add at least 20 species to the species at risk list (and I'm not mentioning the species that get listed internationally!), lets not contribute to the abundance loss that some species are currently experiencing. As small as a gesture it may be, we can make a difference locally. Please remember that biodiversity conservation is not worth any amount of money, once a species is lost, it is lost forever. No amount of money can bring it back.
Before making any further complaints, I wanted to see whether this rule was actually going to be put into place. I was sincerely disappointed today when I noticed that non-members were no longer allowed to post in the Classifieds section. I'm not a member, but that is because I'm rarely available on the 4th Monday of every month. The forum is still quite useful to me to find out about local stores, classifieds, and current trends in fish-keeping technology.
I hope that you take my post into consideration. I would simply like an explanation for this modification to the forums considering the reason stated above which currently goes against one of OVAS' primary objectives. Please feel free to delete my post if you'd like, but I believe that other members and forum-users would benefit from an explanation.
Sincerely,
Marie-France
Conservation Biologist
What great points you bring up, very well said! Maybe I am the only one but, as a member myself, I have no issue with non-members posting in the classifieds.
Jessie
Very well said, I am not a member also, but did make very good use of the classifieds and scanned them on an almost daily basis. Have been looking for other avenues for aquatic classifieds..........can see kijjiji becoming ever more popular.
Seems such a waste..........a great forum like this being limited somewhat by only allowing members. There are usually good reasons for everything done, just hope there was a very good reason for this decision. As from what I have learnt is it is the beginner or new to aquatics that usually get sucked into buying alot of stuff to find out they don't like the hobby and want to get out of it...............hence being told to come to this forum to sell their stuff.
I know for a fact that Big Al's refers this site to people looking to get rid of fish.
I think the reasoning behind it is because the website is an extention of the club, they are using this to increase membership. Kijiji and usedottawa are also available to post free classified ads for fish, and many of the ads on there are also on ovas, so clearly many OVASers use the other sites as well.
Essentially OVAS is giving you the privilege or selling your items through the club/site as a benefit of your membership with the club. Non-members can still browse the classifieds and purchase fish and items from OVASers.
Couldn't agree with you more Marie.
2 thunbs up.
I am not a member either, I work 6 to 7 days a week, owning my own buisness.
I too can not attend every 4th monday of the month or most any other day of the month.
Conservation IS the name of the game and I can't believe that a few bad apples could spoil a good thing for everybody.
I REALY can't believe that the OVAS would let these people spoil it for EVERYONE.
I have bought and sold A LOT from people advertising on this site mainly because I believe in conservation and recycling.
Have you noticed that the last ad posted was on June 5th???, It is now June 7th, I have NEVER seen that before,
OH WELL, I guess you'll find another aquarium on the sidewalk or another fish in the sewer.
4. to work toward the conservation of endangered species.
I believe OVAS has just taken a step backwards instead of looking to the future.
Yes, Kijiji and usedottawa are looking good right now for buying and selling but I like the information from trusted people on THIS site.
I personally will be LOOKING for another site that is looking at the future and actually knows how to handle a few bad apples without punishing the rest of us.
Again I will give 2 thumbs up to you Marie and I hope we can all find a NEW site that we can ALL SHARE our passion for these Animals. :'(
The intention behind limiting the classifieds is the change the appearance for this website, which is the online extension of OVAS. Lately, ovas.ca has become known as "the place where you can get cheap fish stuff". We want to get away from that image and OVAS to be know for what it is. The most recent posts in the past reflected exactly that the c/f made probably 75% of all the traffic. Many people that were using the c/f didn't even know that OVAS is a local aquarium club (if you know that, great!). That doesn't sound like a big problem at first, more people is always great. Well, its not. The classifieds have always been a place where some take advantage over others. Many people have their own experiences with that, and many of these turned their back on OVAS completely because of that. Making the c/f a privilege for members only is an attempt to limit this. We also do not want that the club degrades to an aquatic Used Ottawa, simply because that is not our main objective.
I do not see how limiting the classifieds conflicts with the presentation and conversation. Any ads of this kind have been very, very rare. Be aware that we can be contacted and willing to help out if anybody is in an situation in which they cannot take care of their fish anymore. That is what OVAS is about: an aquatic community that is there for each other.
I'm not sure that you understand the impacts of wild-caught specimens, including the extraction of live rock from the ocean. I think it is also ignorant to think that over-harvesting does not lead to species becoming threatened or endangered. Just because the trade of some species is still legal, or just because it hasn't yet been put on a species at risk priority list, doesn't mean that its not on its way to extinction or hasn't suffered severe declines! Just look at our local Spotted Turtle considered Endangered in Ontario and Canada, this species has been nearly picked to extinction due to the pet trade industry.
I honestly don't see how the classifieds has ever been a place where some take "advantage" over others.
Call me rude, but this is the way that I see it:
The only people that are not getting any benefits from the classifieds section of the forum are the sponsors, people running businesses. In fact, they may be losing some business over this. The only thing that OVAS might lose, is a few potential sponsors and an opportunity to get more membership sign-ups (not more attendance to the monthly meetings). More membership sign ups and more support from businesses/sponsors means increased funding for OVAS... I taught this was a "non-profit" type of club?!
I also don't think that it is rare to see full set ups and individual species being sold in the Classifieds because someone is moving homes, getting out of the hobby, etc.... Just think of the tanks that don't get sold and the species and live rock that simply end up in the garbage. I dont think you need to post an endangered species on the classifieds section in order to contribute to wildlife conservation.... but maybe if all aquaria clubs do this, we will prevent further loss of liverock (habitat destruction/degradation) and overharvesting of reef fish. I'm sure some people won't go through the effort of e-mailing you asking to save their fishtank because they can't access the classifieds. They will just post it on kijiji or Used Ottawa.... or won't go through any more effort and simply throw it out.
Also, one point that I failed to mention in my previous post is preventing the release of foreign species into the Ottawa Valley habitats. Currently, invasive species are taking over some native habitats due to captive releases. People being able to sell or trade their unwanted pets may be less inclined to release these into the wild. Examples of such specimens that have been released and currently are not native to eastern Ontario but are affecting local wildlife include Purple loosestrife, Common Carp and Red-eared Slider turtles. These species tend to out-compete our native species therefore causing our native wildlife to decline in numbers rapidly.
It seems to me as though money has been set as a priority for OVAS over their initial stated objectives of "to work towards the conservation of endangered species".
QuoteI'm not a member, but that is because I'm rarely available on the 4th Monday of every
This is a crock.
All of this is over $20.00...that's really what we're talking about, let's be honest.
If the memberships were free, everyone would have one and none of this would be an issue. The fact is that many people benefit from coming to this site either by becoming informed about the hobby, solving a fish related dilemma or by perhaps picking up a deal and then ultimately choose not to give back to the club because they don't want to part with $20.00. That's their prerogative and no one is faulting them...until now.
I'm going to offend a few people for this no doubt but I feel I have something to offer on this subject for a couple of reason. Firstly, I became a member almost immediately after my first posting in 2007, I never hesitated because I appreciated having somewhere local to get info. Secondly, in an effort to help out the club I "donated" 5 memberships to encourage first time members. Actually it was more self serving than that, I was hoping to shame/guilt, whatever, those individuals who frequented the site without ever having purchased a membership.
I've never understood how people can purchase hundreds, even thousands of dollars worth of equipment and livestock and then balk at paying out $20.00 to be a member. Even if you don't want to be part of the club, it's a small price to pay to support something that is beneficial, helpful and enjoyable.
Snowgrrl, I've attended a grand total of 4 meetings in 4 years but that has never stopped me from purchasing a membership. Your complaint is misdirected and to lay this at the foot of OVAS because others choose to be irresponsible or uncaring is unwarranted and I believe it is nothing more than a canard designed to hide the fact that you are too cheap to spring for a membership. If I am wrong, then prove me so by purchasing a membership, I'll even kick in a few dollars.
Mike
I'd also like to add that most people who are preserving endagered species (like breeding w/c rare/endagered fish) are likely members already. It requires extensive set ups, and many of these people have taken information from the club site/other members. Personally I've modelled some set ups after other members' tank build threads, and it had nothing to do with the classifieds. OVAS also has a local breeders directory. If someone is breeding rare fish there's a good chance they'd want their names on there. No classifieds required!
I agree a whole 5.4 cents a day to have access to gifted speakers and talented hobbyist which not only help us but give us with ideas/knowedge we might not have been privileged to otherwise, and then lets not forget the the discounts given by our sponsors that by themselves give you back your money.
As far as the club being about the money, hire a guest speaker, arrange a monthly meeting hall or a BBQ, Christmas party to name a few. In reality that whole 4.5 cents is a small price to pay to be part of something that does care about the same things.
I agree with some of Snowgirl's post, but to hang the environmental impact of the world on the OVAS classified is just a tad crazy.
In a nut shell people can still buy from the classifieds and as mentioned there isn't anyone on this site that wouldn't post for someone getting rid of an unwanted fish for free.
As a member I do not feel it a bad thing to allow non OVAS members access to post in the classifieds. In fact I think it helps members. Limiting their post totals to that section is more appropriate.
As a member I have no issue with non OVAS members using this website. To me it's the club promoting the hobby, promoting aquaria and preserving aquatic life. That is the primary purpose of this club. The primary purpose shouldn't be forcing non-members to cough up 20 bucks, ten bucks or even one dollar.
People for whatever reason do not want to pay $20 will not want to if their feeling pressured to do so. I feel it is human nature to resist when pushed or when someone feels their pushed for them to resist even more.
Let me know when the Classifieds are open to everyone again, then, I'll gladly buy a membership. Right now, I have no reason to buy a membership and proving that I'm "not cheap" isn't a good enough reason. OVAS needs to show me that they aren't going to cheap out of their current conservation objective, and then I'll reciprocate by being grateful and buying a membership. I'm simply trying to be informative by demonstrating the fact that restricting Classifieds isn't necessarily in the best interest of the responsible aquaria-keeping. Understand that I'm spending my entire career promoting wildlife conservation and preventing species from becoming extinct.
I was really wanting/thinking of buying an OVAS membership in December when I learnt all about OVAS, but, really, the attitude of the club is becoming less and less appealing to me.
Quote from: Snowgrrl83 on June 07, 2010, 05:51:02 PM
I was really wanting/thinking of buying an OVAS membership in December when I learnt all about OVAS, but, really, the attitude of the club is becoming less and less appealing to me.
I was thinking of donating $10,000 to the Diabetes Foundation but their telerep was rude to me so I didn't. You see how easy it is to say that. The fact is you didn't buy a membership and then had the audacity to come here and complain about an organization that is run completely by volunteers.
Frankly, your attitude is less and less appealing and I doubt the club needs someone who doesn't contribute to it but opts only to complain about it.
I have been a member for several years and will continue supporting this local club for years to come all tho it has been a few years since I have attended a meeting. If you will allow me to add my "intelligent 2 cents worth in" Snowgrrl why would you absolutely need a classified of any sort if you are desperate enough to release for example red eared sliders into the wild any not give them away free even on kijiji or reptile shelters. Big Als would probably take them and unwanted fish off peoples hands as well. People don't read forums and alot dont care or listen anyways when they want something they buy it, and when they get tired of it dump it anywhere at all just as long as they see or have to deal with it. So why should OVAS "have" to open there classifieds to everyone I agree with them its become a dumping ground for people to sell what they dont want or cant take care of anymore. Go to Big Al's on a Sunday its a zoo in there and how many "educated" buyers are in there that have read forums asked questions before they have bought not that many yes there are some. (hats off to the employees of any LFS you have better nerves than I do) I dont usually post anymore because I became fed up of giving advice to deaf ears. Brent Shaver and others brought up some solid points thanks guys !!!! For twenty bucks a year you get sooooooooooooo much from OVAS go hire some speakers to come to Ottawa, BBQS, The Big Annual OVAS auction which I believe is open to the general public, Give your head a shake you cant get much of a magazine subscription for $20
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your post. I agree, it is really great that OVAS promotes local captive breeders on their website. Captive-bred endangered species are also great.
I feel as though the opinions are quite divided right now!! There are some great sponsors on OVAS that really do promote captive-bred fish, even on the saltwater side and captive bred SW fish are becoming more and more readily available! I really wish I had the time/money to do captive breeding - seems very fascinating.
But, captive breeding should be a last resort in order to save an endangered species. Its really better to prevent initial declines early than have to reintroduce the species into the wild and do aquaculture in order to save it. Unfortunately, for many species kept in our tanks (esp. saltwater), many haven't successfully been bred in captivity yet. I once found a list of SW fish that are regularly captive-bred on Reefcentral.com which really encouraged me to only keep those species found in the list!
That still doesn't change the fact that Classifieds could prevent fish from being thrown out/flushed down.
QuoteThat still doesn't change the fact that Classifieds could prevent fish from being thrown out/flushed down.
Only if they are too lazy to go to a LFS to donate it, or ask a member to post a Free Fish post...
Or is it about making money?
Quote from: FishPassion on June 07, 2010, 06:15:27 PM
People don't read forums and alot dont care or listen anyways when they want something they buy it, and when they get tired of it dump it anywhere at all just as long as they see or have to deal with it. So why should OVAS "have" to open there classifieds to everyone I agree with them its become a dumping ground for people to sell what they dont want or cant take care of anymore. Go to Big Al's on a Sunday its a zoo in there and how many "educated" buyers are in there that have read forums asked questions before they have bought not that many yes there are some. (hats off to the employees of any LFS you have better nerves than I do)
Just because some people sink that low and throw anything out without thinking and buy before thinking doesn't mean that we have to do the same, FishPassion. I'm not saying OVAS "has" to open the classifieds to everyone... I'm saying they should and that its the responsible and right thing to do. I think they are taking a step back by not doing so.
Quote from: Brent Shaver on June 07, 2010, 06:28:14 PM
Only if they are too lazy to go to a LFS to donate it, or ask a member to post a Free Fish post...
Or is it about making money?
So I haven't posted anything on the classifieds, except a LF post that was unsuccessful. I can see how some for-profit individuals may be posting on the classifieds on a regular basis and not going through the traditional "sponsor" route. Maybe individuals are only allowed a maximum of X numbers of posts on the classifieds section per year, otherwise, they need to become a retailer?! Maybe that would be a better option as a Classifieds rule.
As a long-time OVAS member and forum sponsor, this directly hurts me as, if the 75% classified ad users figure is correct, it means I have less traffic to see ads and my sponsor forum.
I became a member because the classified ads drew me in. I wonder how many others are in the same boat?
Maybe the changes and new rules were discussed at a prior meeting, but I'm sure that there are many members, and non-members who would like to know the process taken to arrive at such changes.
1. New rules
2. removal of lounge
3. changes to classifieds
Was there an opinion poll taken? Was there some discussion threads in the members forum? Were there discussions during the formal meetings? Etc... And maybe there were, and if so... The members have spoken and their executive has responded accordingly. Be happy, it's a working system.
I know over they past two years there has always been a love/hate relationship with the classifieds section....
Focusfin - no one is attacking anyone and yet you are calling people cheap, too lazy and outright mocking others! I am pretty sure you are in clear violation of our new forum rules! We are all, members or not, entitled to have an opinion, how we chose to voice it is what counts. Snowgrl83 took the time and effort to voice her opinion, politely, you took all of 2 seconds to blast off hasty nasty words...as a member here on OVAS, I object to you treating people this way while preaching about being a paying member - now THAT is not what OVAS stands for!
Jessie
One last thought.
If no one cared about OVAS, there wouldn't be any responses to the changes...
Sometimes the noise is not "**** disturbing", sometimes it's miss guided passion... :)
*** Post edited as Swearing, Vulgarities, and Profanities are not permitted - this includes creative spelling of such words.
Quote from: holachicka on June 07, 2010, 08:03:58 PM
Focusfin - no one is attacking anyone and yet you are calling people cheap, too lazy and outright mocking others! I am pretty sure you are in clear violation of our new forum rules! We are all, members or not, entitled to have an opinion, how we chose to voice it is what counts. Snowgrl83 took the time and effort to voice her opinion, politely, you took all of 2 seconds to blast off hasty nasty words...as a member here on OVAS, I object to you treating people this way while preaching about being a paying member - now THAT is not what OVAS stands for!
Jessie
Hear-hear!
Quote from: holachicka on June 07, 2010, 08:03:58 PM
Focusfin - no one is attacking anyone and yet you are calling people cheap, too lazy and outright mocking others! I am pretty sure you are in clear violation of our new forum rules! We are all, members or not, entitled to have an opinion, how we chose to voice it is what counts. Snowgrl83 took the time and effort to voice her opinion, politely, you took all of 2 seconds to blast off hasty nasty words...as a member here on OVAS, I object to you treating people this way while preaching about being a paying member - now THAT is not what OVAS stands for!Jessie
Absolutely, I stand by everything I've said.
BTW Snowgrrl if this is an issue of such dire importance to you, where have you been. I have not heard word one about this until today. By your own admission, you waited until the rule was implemented before saying anything. Have you or your organization ever contacted, thanked, acknowledged OVAS for helping to stem the flushing/dumping of fish. Of course not and exactly why your post is entirely misguided.
If you're upset, be upset with the right people.
Quote from: FocusFin on June 07, 2010, 05:29:53 PM
This is a crock.
All of this is over $20.00...that's really what we're talking about, let's be honest.
If the memberships were free, everyone would have one and none of this would be an issue. The fact is that many people benefit from coming to this site either by becoming informed about the hobby, solving a fish related dilemma or by perhaps picking up a deal and then ultimately choose not to give back to the club because they don't want to part with $20.00. That's their prerogative and no one is faulting them...until now.
I'm going to offend a few people for this no doubt but I feel I have something to offer on this subject for a couple of reason. Firstly, I became a member almost immediately after my first posting in 2007, I never hesitated because I appreciated having somewhere local to get info. Secondly, in an effort to help out the club I "donated" 5 memberships to encourage first time members. Actually it was more self serving than that, I was hoping to shame/guilt, whatever, those individuals who frequented the site without ever having purchased a membership.
I've never understood how people can purchase hundreds, even thousands of dollars worth of equipment and livestock and then balk at paying out $20.00 to be a member. Even if you don't want to be part of the club, it's a small price to pay to support something that is beneficial, helpful and enjoyable.
Snowgrrl, I've attended a grand total of 4 meetings in 4 years but that has never stopped me from purchasing a membership. Your complaint is misdirected and to lay this at the foot of OVAS because others choose to be irresponsible or uncaring is unwarranted and I believe it is nothing more than a canard designed to hide the fact that you are too cheap to spring for a membership. If I am wrong, then prove me so by purchasing a membership, I'll even kick in a few dollars.
Interesting perspective Mike.
I too became a member within short order of my first posts. However, after many attempts to focus the attention and improvements around the web-side on the club was simply told that the club is not about the web, it's about the meetings. If you search the members forum you'll find these threads...
I chose not to participate in the club meetings... Let's assume it was because I am somewhat house bound due to being disabled.... I'm not btw, but let's assume I was...
Now I cannot be in the club, my ideas are not welcome because they do not align with the in-person meetings, and the web-site is not the club... So why would I pay???
Infact, I did not renew, yet I continued to post and try to contribute in my own way, helping and asking for help in the forums....
Now you are telling me I'm cheap because I do not pay??? Not really fair of you is it?
The summary of your post seems to be that no matter what a person posts on-line, they are not a contributor unless they pay $20/year. Remember, the new rules state that post-count is in no way a factor here....
As I said, you have a very interesting perspective.
I think this thread needs to maintain a respectful tone instead of an attacking tone. I would hope this thread is not locked so those who wish can add there opinions. I hope that everyone releases it is OK to disagree but they do not have to be rude.
I don't think Snowgurl is really trying to say the only issue is endangered fish or releasing into the wild. It is more important to read it as intended as an example of why the classifieds should remain available.
A sponsor also pointed out that traffic will be reduced that will in turn reduce traffic to their forum. This could have potential of losing sponsorships. Then membership will be less valuable because there will be less sponsors offering discounts. Less sponsorship monies and potentially members will not renew then there will be less speakers and so on. It could have a cascade affect? These are a couple examples not the only ponits.
This is the real issue what is the affect?
Quote from: FocusFin on June 07, 2010, 08:45:00 PM
BTW Snowgrrl if this is an issue of such dire importance to you, where have you been. I have not heard word one about this until today. By your own admission, you waited until the rule was implemented before saying anything. Have you or your organization ever contacted, thanked, acknowledged OVAS for helping to stem the flushing/dumping of fish. Of course not and exactly why your post is entirely misguided.
If you're upset, be upset with the right people.
FYI
Please refer yourself to this thread where I voiced my opinion on the current regulation that I'm currently questionning before its implementation.
http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=44689.0
Also, I've voiced my opinion on other new rules/modifications via the Shoutbox. I've also commented my opinion on irresponsible fishkeeping/selling before via this forum in the past. That thread was discarded because it was unfair to accuse a particular sponsor, which I do agree, was not fair on my part, but it was none the less my opinion. I admit that it would have been more sensible to post my concern privately - and maybe I should have done the same thing this time around.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
WOW...and people wonder why we're loosing "Privelages" on this website.
Here's something Snowgrrl83 should have noticed in the Forum Rules:
Section 6, Part 3
"As a member of our forum you must respect the authority of ALL moderators and the webmaster. Public discussions of moderator or webmaster actions are not allowed on the forum. Do not to protest moderation actions in forum posts. If you don't like something that a moderator has done please send a Private Message or E-mail to the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem directly with them. The final link in the chain is to discuss the problem with the webmaster."
I feel I got a massive lecture on a subject that everyone is aware of ::) and that OVAS is being blamed, in part, for all kinds of idiotic behavior just because our classified section isn't open to everyone. It seems this point has been made a few times in this thread, but OVAS's classifieds aren't the be-all-end-all of fish and supplies sales. I bet MOST people who want to sell stuff or fish because they're getting out of the hobby don't even know about OVAS. Most people are accustomed to buying and selling everything else on kijiji or usedottawa, so the fish go there too.
Quote from: Fishnut on June 07, 2010, 09:13:03 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
WOW...and people wonder why we're loosing "Privelages" on this website.
Here's something Snowgrrl83 should have noticed in big bold letters in the Forum Rules:
Section 6, Part 3
As a member of our forum you must respect the authority of ALL moderators and the webmaster. Public discussions of moderator or webmaster actions are not allowed on the forum. Do not to protest moderation actions in forum posts. If you don't like something that a moderator has done please send a Private Message or E-mail to the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem directly with them. The final link in the chain is to discuss the problem with the webmaster.
Hahaha I guess that, plus mikes comments = "pay and be silent... We know what were doing."
Maybe if people, member or non, don't agree with the rules of the club or the way it is run they shouldn't participate?
We just elected a new executive (with many returning members) to help steer the club in a direction we see appropriate, if anyone was concerned they could have of course run for a position.
There are many many many other forums, even some other local ones, strictly about fish keeping.
There are several local classified sites where anyone can post ads.
I don't see why this has become such a huge issue here. If forum users have an attachment to the club it would seem reasonable that they would be willing to buy the membership to retain the benefits of OVAS rather than visiting another site. Its a simple cost/benefit analysis... is it worth $20 to be able to post classifieds here, have an OVAS discount at sponsors, etc. ?
EDIT: ^Executive and website moderators are fairly elected by the members of the club.
Well, Rob, maybe you're right! See ya! :D
Quote from: Hookup on June 07, 2010, 08:55:54 PM
I chose not to participate in the club meetings... Let's assume it was because I am somewhat house bound due to being disabled.... I'm not btw, but let's assume I was...
Now I cannot be in the club, my ideas are not welcome because they do not align with the in-person meetings, and the web-site is not the club... So why would I pay???
Infact, I did not renew, yet I continued to post and try to contribute in my own way, helping and asking for help in the forums....
Now you are telling me I'm cheap because I do not pay??? Not really fair of you is it?
The summary of your post seems to be that no matter what a person posts on-line, they are not a contributor unless they pay $20/year. As I said, you have a very interesting perspective.
I am telling you that you are cheap if you choose not to contribute to the financial well being of the club and then criticize the way in which it is being run. It is ungrateful to the people who donate their time and is in my opinion an example of entitlement. The ideal way to show your disproval of the changes was to attend the member meeting and run as a candidate for change. No one who criticizes bothered.
Holachicka voiced her opinion several times in recent months and even went so far as to nominate herself but then decided against. I did not see her at the election meeting. So why are the people most vocal about the changes doing the least to participate in the direction of the club.
There are several things that I have disagreed with over the past 4 years but I chose to support them anyway because I was not willing to run as a candidate and change the things I didn't believe in. My loss.
It has become far too commonplace in this world to allow others to do the things we don't wish to do and then complain about the way in which they are done.
Yes, I nominated myself and fully intended to attend the meeting. Once one member decided to start a campaign against me in the members only forum, yes, I dropped out and did not attend the meeting. I don't have many objections to how this club is run but I do not feel inclined to "fight the system".
All in all, I do not like how focusfin is being overly critical and somewhat rude to non-members.
im a member, and i can understand why the clubs executives has taken this action. This must not have been an easy decision, but they are re-imaging the club and thinking long term. Good for them. Im proud to be a member.
for thoses that dont like this change, cast your vote, join the executive board, volunteer your time, and change the rules. but first. you have to be a member.
peace.
One more thing - I care, very much ab out this club but felt that after so much of the drama, I just did not want to be part of the exec or too involved in OVAS things. Its sad, I feel sad because I LOVE this hobby but for you to actually try to call me out like that is not only against the new rules (calling me out) but pretty insulting!
Jessie
Quote from: FocusFin on June 07, 2010, 09:21:01 PM
I am telling you that you are cheap if you choose not to contribute to the financial well being of the club and then criticize the way in which it is being run. It is ungrateful to the people who donate their time and is in my opinion an example of entitlement. The ideal way to show your disproval of the changes was to attend the member meeting and run as a candidate for change. No one who criticizes bothered.
Holachicka voiced her opinion several times in recent months and even went so far as to nominate herself but then decided against. I did not see her at the election meeting. So why are the people most vocal about the changes doing the least to participate in the direction of the club.
There are several things that I have disagreed with over the past 4 years but I chose to support them anyway because I was not willing to run as a candidate and change the things I didn't believe in. My loss.
It has become far too commonplace in this world to allow others to do the things we don't wish to do and then complain about the way in which they are done.
Yep.. Guilty as charged. Of course, we all chose to express ourselves and influence change in our own ways.
But in the end, you are right. I guess this is the end.
Quote from: Hookup on June 07, 2010, 09:18:15 PM
Hahaha I guess that, plus mikes comments = "pay and be silent... We know what were doing."
Hookup,
I think what it means is "they were elected to do a job and if it is unpopular then they will face the consequences at election time"
Quote from: holachicka on June 07, 2010, 09:26:09 PM
All in all, I do not like how focusfin is being overly critical and somewhat rude to non-members.
That's fair comment because I too found the non-member's comment to be rude, ungrateful and overly critical and I was offended by it.
Quote from: holachicka on June 07, 2010, 09:29:42 PM
Its sad, I feel sad because I LOVE this hobby but for you to actually try to call me out like that is not only against the new rules (calling me out) but pretty insulting! jessie
It's unfortunate that you feel that way but I simply responded to your comments to me ie.
Focusfin - no one is attacking anyone and yet you are calling people cheap, too lazy and outright mocking others! I am pretty sure you are in clear violation of our new forum rules! We are all, members or not, entitled to have an opinion, how we chose to voice it is what counts. Snowgrl83 took the time and effort to voice her opinion, politely, you took all of 2 seconds to blast off hasty nasty words...as a member here on OVAS, I object to you treating people this way while preaching about being a paying member - now THAT is not what OVAS stands for!
The executive of any organization works for the membership. I know that sounds bad but that is the job title. They speak for the membership but the membership has a right to speak up and give their opinion. If non members are shot down why will they want to be members. The membership dues pays for all of OVAS along withe the sponsorship fees. It is our money used we have a say.
There is more to it than someone running to change things we all know that. I sat on the executive but due to personal reasons did not not complete a full term. In my eyes that doesn't give me any more rights than anyone else. I've donated and recently donated to OVAS but in my eyes it doesn't give me any more privilege than any other member.
To me it is attraction. If OVAS only wants to be a physical club meaning meeting attendance as the only focus that might not be the wisest choice. We are in the information age with tons of social networks. The Internet is here to stay.
If the club is going to make large changes then the club should be involved in such decisions. Yes day to day issues are handled so things can run but large face changes in organizations are usually brought to a referendum. How do the few know what the many want?
^That's what democracy is for. The people/members elect individuals to represent their ideas and then the elected party acts in the memberships interest. This means the elected ones have all the power, but those who voted had all the power while electing them. They do not have the power to make every decision.
Alright, well, I voiced my opinion and OVAS execs can do what they want with them. I just wish I knew the real reason for the changes incured and would like to have the logical explanation for it rather than a vague. I voiced my opinion and I'm glad that it hasen't been deleted yet. I really hope that my opinion is taken into consideration. I really respect the fact that they took the time to listen... and I'm really sorry if this discussion has gotten out of hand - it wasnt my intention.
Quote from: Hookup on June 07, 2010, 09:36:42 PM
Yep.. Guilty as charged. Of course, we all chose to express ourselves and influence change in our own ways. But in the end, you are right. I guess this is the end.
Just to be clear, I was responding to your example and not you personally.
There are many ways to give back and I for one have done (bugger-all)
² but what I have done is in appreciation for the people who give their time because I'm too selfish to give mine.
Change is good! I'm not a member of the exec...although I at least tried...and I am 100% on board with this decision. It's high time OVAS had an image make-over. It needs to come out from under this "cheep place to get rid of stuff" and "open for all kinds of abuse" reputation to a much more respectful club with active members...in person or not...who take part in as many aspects of the club as possible. We need to attract quality members, not the pain-in-the-bum people who take away some enjoyment of the club.
Here's an example of how a non-exec member has helped...not to boast, but a few months ago I took the initiative to contact an exec member of another aquarium club to get permission to use their forum rules to base ours on. They run a really tight ship when it comes to their website and I wanted that for our website. I had some great e-mail conversations with people who not only help run that club but CAOAC, I got permission to use their rules, did a lot of editing of their rules to suit OVAS and submitted it to the OVAS exec. They've been modified a bit more but those rules are there because I love this hobby, this club and took initiative beyond the usual dramatic ways of dealing with things...although I freely admit that I have done my share of that in the past ::).
Read the rules everyone. It's very thorough, dealing with conduct, language, subject matter and (to my surprise) links to external sites in signatures.
Quote from: FocusFin on June 07, 2010, 09:54:24 PM
Just to be clear, I was responding to your example and not you personally.
There are many ways to give back and I for one have done (bugger-all)² but what I have done is in appreciation for the people who give their time because I'm too selfish to give mine.
Thanks, your clarification is appreciated.
But, other than huge walls of text, the posting of links and some articles I am guilty as charged...
I think it's just taken time to realize OVAS does not provide what I am looking for, regardless of the many great people on the site.
this is what i think of all the new changes....
I am not a member, nor will i ever be, because of this exact problem. For people that know me, will know how much i will want to be swearing and calling people out but then i will be banned, so i wont.
Saltwater is a huge part of this board/community, yet they get no appreciation. The club bring in people to talk about discus when maybe a handful of people, if that keep discus. I would like to see what percentage of other sections get traffic here other than saltwater which is a huge part of this board. All of which again i wont be, becoming a member because everything for the saltwater people is non-existant.
Again i have been on here for a few years now, i have sold things, now im not allowed. i participate with people on here outside of the "club" etc, but i honestly dont think i should have to pay $20 so i could not have saltwater speakers come in, not attend meetings because of this retarded drama, and wanting to choke people out, and as it was posted above the $20 has nothing to do with the website. So if I spend $20 i can sell things in the classifieds, yay, what else do i get out of it? i can use my ovas card to get discounts where? nowhere.
When Anthony Calfo came i think that was one of the biggest attendances and probably the only attendance i had been at. Maybe if they could split down the middle salt/fresh speakers more people would be inclined to become members.
I could careless what happens on here to be honest its just ridiculous as to what is happening with a few certain people all of which are in this thread fighting for b.s rules that they threw into the boggle game and shook and tossed out and came out with.
Where is the wonderful president in all of this drama, no where to be seen. Amazing!
Here comes the ban/reported thread
Quote from: Tyler.L on June 07, 2010, 10:14:24 PM
Where is the wonderful president in all of this drama, no where to be seen. Amazing!
Well, if you must know it was our monthly exec meeting tonight. We are organizing the BBQ for this weekend as well as other details of the club operations.
Well said, Snowgrrl.
I was planning on joining the club when the next session starts but after all these changes that won't happen. Frankly, all I see this as is a small group of individuals wanting to increase further increase their exclusivity by limiting access by non-members. The reasoning behind all these changes is laughable. How exactly does restricting access to the classified "reinforce that this site is an extension of a community of hobbyists?"
Quote from: garnpet on June 07, 2010, 10:31:04 PM
Well, if you must know it was our monthly exec meeting tonight organizing the BBQ for this weekend as well as other details of the club operations.
Now that that is cleared up :) hopefully someone with some real authority can set things straight :)
It prevents people who have no idea what OVAS is about from putting a bunch of junk up for sale in the classifieds and clogging it up.
It may also help prevent the occassional problem of people posting free items and having certain people take them and then sell them on the site a week later. If members are the only ones posting ads they are more likely to know each other and hopefully avoid these conflicts.
thats great but maybe have a post limit on who can sell instead of non members flat out not being allowed. reefcentral has a post count being 50 posts, but then they will come back saying they will top nonsense, but hey thats why we have moderators to go through these things...
Quote from: robt18 on June 07, 2010, 10:37:35 PM
It prevents people who have no idea what OVAS is about from putting a bunch of junk up for sale in the classifieds and clogging it up.
It may also help prevent the occassional problem of people posting free items and having certain people take them and then sell them on the site a week later. If members are the only ones posting ads they are more likely to know each other and hopefully avoid these conflicts.
How will stopping non-members from posting prevent that? Members post crap and grab freebies for resale.
I find that I know quite a few members and I'd be more likely to confront them if they did that to me rather than someone who makes an account, grabs some stuff and then sells it next week and is never seen again. A slight amount of accountability and tracability I guess?
That is not 100% accurate....
I went to a members house, gave a sizeable deposit and was to return on the Saturday with a truck and the second half ofthe money...He never answered calls, emails, nothing! OVAS was contacted about it and was told that it is not their place to get involved in interactions in the classifieds. All in all, whether the poster is a member or not, does not make it fool proof...as well as, I am curious as to where this "cheap place to get rid of stuff" comes from...I for 1 have never heard anything negative about OVAS from any outsider...
That's my 2 cents :)
All I can say is wow! The ignorance displayed here by some makes me glad I didn't re-run for the exec this year.
#1 As for where the President was...I was at work till 5, rushed home to get changed then headed back out for the executive meeting, then spent 3 hours planning a kick-butt BBQ and brainstorming ideas for next season. So I've been up since 5, have to be up at 4 tomorrow, and have not gone to bed yet. Wow do I feel appreciated right now.
#2 I have never been one to quash criticism or to say "pay up and shut up", but why is that so many people have opinions and yet so few volunteer to help, let alone run for election (to those who have helped and Sylvia and Brent who did run for election I apologize). It just seems like those who complain the loudest and most are the one who participate the least.
#3 The fact that someone could even claim we haven't brought in saltwater speakers boggles my mind. Were you there for Robert DiMarco and his talk about breeding clownfish? How about Frank Aguirre. What about all the talks that covered all aspects of the hobby, such as fish nutrition? And I won't even get into the self-centeredness and sense of entitlement that ignores any topic not directly related to their specific interests.
#4 It was never about money or increasing membership. It's about bringing the club (be it the meetings or the online branch) back to what makes it great: The information and socialization gained. When any new forum visitor looking for information is instead deluged with ads for used filters and such, we're doing them a disservice. There's nothing wrong with hobbyists selling and buying and getting good deals, but I don't want that to be what ovas.ca is known for, and I'm pretty sure that's the reputation it has acquired. If we get no more members next season than this season, I won't lose any sleep. But I won't be impressed if we become a more specialized form of usedottawa and lose the community and information aspect.
#5 Yes one of our goals is education and conservation. That is why earlier this year we donated a tank to a school, and several members donated money and/or fish to this endeavour. Take a look at the classifieds, and tell me how often do you see fish being sold that would otherwise wind up in a river? Most of the time its used equipment, etc. And it's a free market, people can sell what they want. But that doesn't mean we want ovas.ca to become known as that. I won't get into the details, but suffice to say as well that not everyone agrees that overfishing (especially in freshwater) is nearly as big a threat as habitat loss and pollution, and that in fact the ornamental fish trade can be a positive for ecosystems.
#6 I've lost count of how many times we've discussed how to get the saltwater hobbyists to participate in the club more. We've brought in speakers (Anthony Calfo anyone?) at great expense, we've had mini auctions dedicated to frags and corals, you have your own forum, and yet you get no appreciation? Seriously?
#7 The executive works for the membership, but the whole point of elections is that you use your power to vote, then we run the club. We don't have to be running to the membership every time we need to make a decision, or we wouldn't get anything done. We make decisions for the good of the club (and I cannot emphasize that enough), and no other reason. We may not always be right, but to question our motives is insulting.
#8 As for sponsor's worries, that is up to each sponsor to decide, but I would bet you dollars to donuts that you will not lose any significant income, because the people who don't participate in the community aspects of the club (be it online or meetings) aren't going to pay attention to your banner either.
Most of my other issues have been dealt with by others in the thread. If I seem a bit peeved, well that's putting it mildly. Like I said before, I can take criticism. PM me, question a decision, I'll do my best to respond to you. But this has gotten ridiculous. And people's leaps of logic just boggle my mind. I'm going to stop before steam comes out my ears or my head explodes.
Thank you to those of you who showed your support for the OVAS Executive, it is appreciated. We can also appreciate constructive criticism, but there are better ways to handle it than this thread. And yes, it is now locked.
For those of you wondering where we get these ideas, this thread gives a pretty good picture of what some of the opinions of the forum are.