How noisy is an overflow supposed to be? I am in the process of setting up my tank and I can't believe how noisy the "overflow" is.
I have the tank drilled on the bottom, with a 1 inch bulkhead. I had a 1" pvc pipe going up to water level, and it sounded like a toilet flushing. I tried making a Durso standpipe, and it is not much better. I also tried a Hofer Gurgle buster, and a Stockman standpipe, but they are all pretty noisy. Either gurgling or flushing sounds.
Should it be that noisy?
Mine are dead silent. Like 1am in the morning, no noise in the house and you cannot hear them.
The basic design is a durso, but it's wrapped in 360 degrees.
You need
1. 4" to 2" reducer
2. 2" to 1" reducer
3. 1" piece of PVC
4. 3" PVC end cap
Put the 2" to 1" reducer in the 4" to 2" reducer. This creates a 4" to 1" reducer you can put on your 1" pipe.
This also creates a 4" diameter, or 12.3" circumference overflow. 4*pi
This will help, but not enuf.
Take the 1" piece of PVC and sand one end, the outside, until you can insert it, like a slip fit, into the 4" to 1" overflow you created above.
Cut the1" PVC pipe you sanded down to about 1/2 cm shorter than the top of the overflow when inserted.
Cut teeth into the top of the 1" PVC pipe.
At this point you can run the system and water will flow over the lip of the 4" reducer, fill it and flow into the teeth of the 1" PVC you customized.
The last step, put a 1/32 dia. hole into the top dead center of the 3" PVC cap. Place the cap into the overflow, resting on top of the 1" PVC pipe with the teeth...
Instantly silent.... Adjust the hole in small increments to tune...
Once you have it perfect, glue the 3" cap to the 1" PVC teeth... Do not glue that into the reducer... You'll want to remove it to clean the teeth by tossing it into the dishwasher.
Thanks Hookup.
That sounds similar to my gurgle buster, but with a much bigger "cup" for the water to flow in.
Where do I find all the parts to do that? The places close by are pretty pathetic for anything but "standard" size PVC (i.e. likely to be used in a home).
Um... If memory serves, Lowes in Orleans has the reducer's... and I just picked up a 3" cap from HD on baseline, but I'd bet Lowes has that also.
Should get your silented right down..
Is there only drain line? 1" down?
If so, you'll also likely have to decrease your return-pump's flow... the gurgle is normal and will be silent from above... the "flush" is a factor of too much flow backing up in the pipe until a sypon is created then the syphon is 1000x faster flowing so it empties (flush)...
Just back-off your return pump's flow until you no longer get the flushing noise, then install the above to get rid of all sound...
If you have 2 drain lines, then I have a slight modification to the above...
I only have 1 drain line. I'll try and visit Lowes. Darn thing will have costed me more in gas than parts ;-b
Thanks for the replies.
Quote from: HomerJ on August 24, 2010, 07:30:57 AM
Where do I find all the parts to do that? The places close by are pretty pathetic for anything but "standard" size PVC (i.e. likely to be used in a home).
Lowes is great :)
If you can't find what you need there I ordered all my stuff from Home Hardware. Go on their website. Get the part numbers and call a store and have it brought it. But try lowes first. I love their selection :D
One thing I'm still wondering is if my drain bulkhead itself is large enough. I can have 4" cups all I want, but the water still has to go through one inch tubing at some point. From what I looked up before, 1" should handle the max flow from my pump (max is 350gph minus about 4ft of head). I'd hate to have to redrill it for a larger one, but I guess adding a 2nd drain my be another option. If hookup's idea fails too, I'll blame the bulkhead size and go from there....
dammit, last week of vacation and failure all around!!!!
The question needs two comments.
1) The idea of a 1" pipe handling the flow has to be based upon either a siphon or something else.. i'm guessing on a siphon.
2) you are not running a siphon, nor do you want to.
To sustain a siphon you need to supply the exact amount, or a bit more, water than the siphon can handle. A bit more, would flood the tank, getting the exact amount, would be pretty difficult and in practical purposes, impossible.
So to get a siphon you have to go with a bit more flow than the 1" pipe can handle, which leads to my question above about having a second drain, to handle the overflow as a trickle.
In your case, we have to run the flow at less than a siphon.. And from a noise point of view, you need to have a low flow so you do not get the flushing noises described above.
Maybe a picture of what you have would help us all :)
This is what I have and its pretty quiet.
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjetjumper.net%2Fimages%2Fsw%2F32.JPG&hash=ee7299223469864258a84b108db52e63096f0912)
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjetjumper.net%2Fimages%2Fsw%2F37.JPG&hash=af645caea7df1b0dd3d33fb451418a83b3596cfc)
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjetjumper.net%2Fimages%2Fsw%2F40.JPG&hash=31d64d2dbf6d1d3584c58f8a6028ff5e416c68c3)
Good photos Jet.
That';s pretty much the same idea, just I recommend a much larger "cup" for increased surface skimming performance. But that is 100% the design as far as I can tell from the photos.
Quote from: Hookup on August 24, 2010, 09:59:28 AM
The question needs two comments.
1) The idea of a 1" pipe handling the flow has to be based upon either a siphon or something else.. i'm guessing on a siphon.
2) you are not running a siphon, nor do you want to.
For 1), the "idea" is based on reading the forums, and a few websites. I'll agree that it's not always clear, and as you say, what I'm seeing is probably based on a full syphon... (that would empty the tank in about... hmmm... 10 seconds.
2) I'm not trying to, but I'm having a hard time seeing how, if I'm letting air in the system, I can avoid hearing the slurping/gurgling/flushing sounds.
To sustain a siphon you need to supply the exact amount, or a bit more, water than the siphon can handle. A bit more, would flood the tank, getting the exact amount, would be pretty difficult and in practical purposes, impossible.
Quote from: Hookup on August 24, 2010, 09:59:28 AM
So to get a siphon you have to go with a bit more flow than the 1" pipe can handle, which leads to my question above about having a second drain, to handle the overflow as a trickle.
If I did have a second drain, wouldn't the second drain recreate the same problem I'm currently having, i.e. gurgling sounds for whatever doesn't get handled by the first drain? I'm on my second day messing with all this, and if all I need is a 2nd drain to make it simpler, I'll empty the tank and drill it dammit ;-b
Quote from: Hookup on August 24, 2010, 09:59:28 AM
In your case, we have to run the flow at less than a siphon.. And from a noise point of view, you need to have a low flow so you do not get the flushing noises described above.
So the idea is to close the ball valve on the return line until I get acceptable noise from what still looks like acceptable flow?
As for pics of what I have, I tried 2 things, Durso and Stockman standpipes/Hofer gurgle buster. They all sound like a teenager drinking from a slurpie.
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fovas.ca%2Fgallery%2F4926_24_08_10_1_25_41.jpg&hash=ca28da84299822472dd67acc8db121077c81a55f)
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fovas.ca%2Fgallery%2F4926_24_08_10_1_26_27.jpg&hash=79384a12931beda53f03e91e96e8ab2c7b16cef0)
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fovas.ca%2Fgallery%2F4926_24_08_10_1_26_59.jpg&hash=18a851944cc95c3074b0468ca2eb00494c1ebec2)
One thing to consider is that low-flow amounts of water will "stick" to the outside edges of the 1" pipe, and allow for a "tube" of air down the center of the pipe. When this is occurring, the noise can be very small, to none. 90* elbows can get you into trouble for obvious reasons.
As you increase flow, this "feature" of physics (there is a name for it) breaks, but I know that i can get 700-1000gph in a 1.5" pipe, though 1" is quite a bit smaller.
So the goal is to get this occurring.
When you hear the flushing, the above described principal is crashing in the pipe...
SLOW DOWN THE RETURN PUMP... close the valve you installed on the return, to stop this...
that ALONE will reduce your noise drastically.
Maybe the bends are killing me. I have a 90 which brings everything horizontal, and 2x 45 bends to bring things back vertical once they've traveled sideways a bit. I should probably move everything over so the sump is right under the drain, to keep everything as straight as possible. I'll play with everything AGAIN tonight... sigh...
This is what we use on all of our set ups that we build.They work great and are easy to clean.They fit onto 1 1/2" PVC.The top works out to 2".This gives you lots of surface skimming and very little noise.
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That's pretty cool Jim. Where can I find these parts?
I get them ordered in from the U.S.
Have to tries Lowes or Home depot?I know they dont have them in this area.
You can get the 1 1/2" - 2" adapter in black ABS at HD, Lowes, or Rona. IMHO, the ABS is great - it blends in well with a black background and coraline grows on it pretty quickly.
For PVC, you'll probably have to go to PVC Plus on Colonnade or make the trip to HD in Massena or Lowes in Ogdensburg.
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/show/product/I3262491/name/grate_pvc_gas_system636_3
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/show/product/I3262617/name/coupling_pvc_gas_system636_3x2
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/show/product/I3262490/name/grate_pvc_gas_system636_2
Or
http://www.homehardware.ca/Products/index/show/product/I3211170/name/grate_drain_abs_pvc_3_wht
Even if Jim never built another tank, he's still built more tanks than I'll ever see... So do not take offense, but my opinion is that a 2" diam is only 6" of skimming o. The surface... In smaller systems that's good, but the general agreement is more is more... Hence the coast to coast designs
I'm saying if you can, go with more... 4" diam is 12.5" of skimming, not even the width of most tanks... Which is a minimal design for coast to coast...
Again, this is just going with more is more... Your millage may vary..
More is more I agree. But it comes to a point where the plumbing gets bigger than what you put in the tank! I have a 50 gallons, which is only 36" wide. I'm a bit concerned about the aesthetics of having something that big in a relatively small tank.
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone, I'll post an update once I've made up my mind on a few options I'm thinking about. (Additional "safety" drain to be able to run full syphon, bigger plumbing, both).
Here is a 50 that I just built.The rock is glued together to the glass and he overflows with the Orca glue..Built the same as I always do an there is no surface scum at all.
Even when I had my 400 set up.I put in 3-2" overflows at the one end and never had problems with surface scum.
Here is a 180 that we just installed a few weeks ago.Same idea.
Everyone has different ways that they like to do things.This happens to be mine and everyone seems to be happy with it.
I have also done the coast to coast.Personally I dont like it much.Takes alot of room out of the display tank.But,hey.Thats just me.
What ever works right for each person is good for them.Its your tank.Your the one that sees it everyday and nobody else.Do what works for you.
Sorry for the babbling.lol.
jim
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The question of how much is enough or too much...you can find arguments for what ever side of the equation you want.
I believed that a smaller flow was better...until I noticed one of my tanks looked off from the others. They all have the same water, so I started looking for another reason. I eventually found the water temp in that tank was swinging 7 degrees daily.
This tank did not have enough flow back to the sump to keep the temperature stable with the rest of the system.
In the end, I increased my feed flows on all of the tanks to minimize temperature swings.
Gentlemen, we are loosing sight of Homer's original topic - overflow NOISE.
Just recently finished a new tank & sump system for my son. 80 gal DT - 37 gal sump - holds about 30 gal
Used 2 - 1 inch drains
Drain # 1 - full siphon w/ball-valve
Drain # 2 - Surplus overflow
Drain # 1 is quiet 00000 noise - the only time there is any noise from drain # 1 is a splashing sound when the water level gets low in the sump(no auto top off). this drain terminates just above the low water line in the sump
Drain # 2 is a Durso style w/minimal flow - just enough to say there is some water flow. This drain dumps into the Fuge side of sump.
NO 90 deg elbows are used on the drain side, only 45's
You could use 90's on the full siphon drain, as you are not breaking a column of air in the centre of the pipe causing the flushing or gurgling noise.
Quote from: Hookup on August 24, 2010, 04:26:07 PM
One thing to consider is that low-flow amounts of water will "stick" to the outside edges of the 1" pipe, and allow for a "tube" of air down the center of the pipe. When this is occurring, the noise can be very small, to none. 90* elbows can get you into trouble for obvious reasons.
As you increase flow, this "feature" of physics (there is a name for it) breaks, but I know that i can get 700-1000gph in a 1.5" pipe, though 1" is quite a bit smaller.
Not 100% sure Hookup, but I think the physics principal you are trying to recall is surface tension or surface adhesion.
Past research has found that 1 in full siphon should drain about 600 gph max for a 3-5 ft head.
This tank is my first build with a sump. It seems to be working for me.
Lots of good advice - like you said Homer - time to make a decision & try something else.
If at first you don't succeed - a S#@T and give up - no no try again
I always get that mixed up