I have been enjoying a PM discussion with someone about my new venture into salt, regarding calcium. Apparently calcium is in the marine salt mix, but it can get depleted by corals, inverts, and certain algae. I plan to have some calciferous algae so figure that it is worth making sure that there be enough calcium.
As a livebearer enthusiast (look at my name), and since I love snails, I have gone the route of having calcium carbonate rich substances, and lately I've moved to calcium carbonate rich substrates (limestone and crushed oyster shells). My fish enjoy the hard water, and my snail shells are perfect. I am using this for my freshwater and brackish tanks.
So for my marine tank I plan to use a mix of limestone & crushed oyster shells (and am also getting crushed coral to mix in too) as I have learned that they are an acceptable substrate choice for marine tanks. I plan to keep some snails (I just got to, I love 'em) along with fish, and I plan to go heavily into macro algae (since I love planted tanks).
My question is this...
Will the calcium carbonate rich substrate keep the water column filled with calcium? I plan to not do water changes, or hardly ever (my approach to the hobby thanks to plants). I understand that when you change the water, with new salt, it replenishes the calcium. However will the substrate I plan to use keep enough calcium in the water? Please keep in mind my three variables 1) rare water change 2) snails-a-plenty 3) calciferous macro algae.
Thank you for your opinions.
Crushed oyster shell is high in phosphates are will contribute to algae big time.
I would recomend using aragonite as opposed to either.
They will only contribute calcium if the pH is around 6.5, at which point the aragonite begins to disolve, but so do all your corals...
This is how a calcium reactor works.
Plus you cant just look at calcium in Salt water. You need to look at the ballance between calcium, alkalinity and magnesium.
I would also highly recomend against not doing any water changes.
This certainly works against you in sw as opposed to for you.
No amount of snails or halimeda algae will help you with this.
halimeda algae is actually a quite slow growing algae.
And snails are kinda like cows, the graze on greenery 24/7 but also produce a fair amount of waste. So lots of snails + lots of waste + no water changes + one very high nutrient tank.
Thank you kindly redbelly for your tips. Based upon your insistence, and a PM discussion with someone else, I have decided to include aragonite in the *mix* of the substrate for its benefits. I realize that perhaps limestone and oyster are not ideal, but apparently many people do use them as substrates in their marine tanks.
Someone PMed me basically saying that these are "cheap". Sure, they are very inexpensive, but I already have them. I got them for two reasons. 1) I got tired of saving and processing eggshells from breakfast for my snails. I learned, and from my experience I am now a believer, that they do contribute amazingly to snail shells. 2) I got the limestone from reading advice to use it for the brackish tank, thus my brackish substrate is the limestone. While learning about using limestone and oyster I stumbled upon many posts about using for marine tank. I am not using them because they are "cheap", though it is appealing too, and honestly I don't feel like blowing a fortune while getting started in this aspect of the hobby. I already have it, others do use it, so I'm going to try working with it.
Please keep in mind that I am not planting to do a coral tank, but am striving to create a marine version of the type of aquarium that I very much like, and have a lot of experience with in the freshwater side: Low Tech Natural Planted Tank.
As such halimeda will certainly be in the tank, but I am aware that it is a "slow grower". In all my tanks I have slow growing plants for ornamental purposes. I also use a lot of fast growing plants to soak up the nutrients, which is why my water parameters are great (yes, been tested) without needing to do water changes. My goal is to have a similar idea in marine, thus I plan to use the nutrient hungry macro algaes to accomplish that goal. Chaeto, and especially caulerpa will be used for that purpose. I *assume* that the macro algaes are as efficient, more or less, as freshwater plants, at soaking up nutrients, and if so then I have absolutely no concern about nutrients from the snails (you should see how many I keep, breed, and feed massively in overstocked tank... and all is well thanks to the beloved plants).
So now I return to my original question, with perhaps a bit of a refinement.
Will the substrate I have replace calcium into the water column that is removed by the snails and the calciferous algaes? My speculation is that it would, for reasons I won't type out now, but am looking for the voice of experienced opinions in this matter.
Refinement: Could I easily test for calcium, and other macros, with some test I can buy from Big Als?
Refinement 2: If I find my tank low on calcium, could I just pour in some CaCl to raise it? Epsom for magnesium if low?
apparently many people do use them as substrates in their marine tanks.
Try posting a poll on this one too see what people are using. I think you will find the fast majority are using aragonite only.
Oyster shell is know to leach phosphates into the tank.
I just did a quick search and this was the very first link I found:
http://reefcentral.net/forums/showthread.php?p=9173966
A few more searches and you will only find the same info I am sure.
Can you use it, yes.
Will it leach phosphates and promote hair algae yes.
If your looking to save a few bucks I would go with used aragonite (crazy cheap in the classifieds) any day over crushed limestone and oystershell
k.... thats all I will say.... just trying to help out here with some info that may or may not save you some serious headaches with GHA.
Will the substrate I have replace calcium into the water column that is removed by the snails and the calciferous algaes?
No. pH is too high is sw.
The calcium depletion from just algae and snails will be pretty low though.
Basic water changes would improve water quality AND most likely replace all Ca used by halimeda and snails
Refinement: Could I easily test for calcium, and other macros, with some test I can buy from Big Als?
Yes you can get test kit for Ca, Alk and MG
I would recomend getting something better than the API brand though such as Salifert or Elos
If I find my tank low on calcium, could I just pour in some CaCl to raise it?
Yes, but not if you are not doing water changes
Chloride levels are actually quite high in NSW and the point at which chloide causes harm is even higher, but its just a matter of time.
Epsom for magnesium if low?
Yes, but not if you are not doing water changes
Sulfate levels in NSW are relatively low. If you are not doing water changes but adding magnesium sulfate as a suppliment you will reach a point relatively quickly where it is harming the tank.
Magnesium chloride is another option. But if you are dosing CaCl + MgCl + zero water changes you will have issues.
Other algae notes
Many marine algae consume a fair amount of Mg.
Caulerpa will take over the entire tank in a few months and once it reaches this level it will be difficult to impossible to remove. This may be desireable to you or it may not be.
Ulva can be a bit invasive but it is easier to remove and looks nice
some other algae:
http://liveaquaria.com/product/aquarium-fish-supplies.cfm?c=490
There are also several species of red algae that are very nice looking
red gracilaria algae would be my preferance for red macro algae
Hmmm... you well worded post is causing me to rethink some things. In a nutshell you are opposed to the oyster shell, and strongly alluding to do regular water changes. I think that I may be seeing your points here.
Two people PMed me about their used aragonite. I think I'll probably have to reply to them.
I guess hoping for the substrate to fulfill the calcium requirement @ the high marine ph is not going to happen. I can see how it would be different from my freshwater tanks, where the ph & gh is all thanks to the substrate, but with the water already alkaline from the marine salt I suppose that it will behave differently.
Question: There is a part of my mind that thinks that phosphates > algae wouldn't be a bad think due to snails and wanting to grow macro algae. Under the circumstances of the type of tank I am striving for would that really be such a bad thing?
You mentioned something not pleasant about the caulerpa... could you please elaborate upon how that would possibly be undesirable? Is it ugly? Hard to manage? I read that it can be disastrous in the tank if it releases nutrients - is that something to be realistically concerned about? I have zero experience with it so far.
Is going for a "low tech planted" (LTP) concept realistic in the marine side? I have been encouraged by the possibility that it is, and people mentioned that it is basically like a refugarium tank.
To keep with the concept of LTP, but recognizing that water chemicals need to be balanced, would a ~10% WC every couple of weeks be sufficient?
IMO there is no replacement for WC. It improves water quality and replaces all your major and minor trace elements
Question: There is a part of my mind that thinks that phosphates > algae wouldn't be a bad think due to snails and wanting to grow macro algae. Under the circumstances of the type of tank I am striving for would that really be such a bad thing?
Honestly I cant say for sure.
I have never kept a strict macro tank. I had a 33g with caulerpa, chaeto and shaving brush growing in there and GHA was still able to grow (thank you tap water).
Maybe with less light the macro would grow but the undesireable algae would not... not sure.
That tank had 6 x T12's on it and the GHA grew very well even with only a couple of fish. We have much higher K and better quality lights readily available now though.
You mentioned something not pleasant about the caulerpa... could you please elaborate upon how that would possibly be undesirable? Is it ugly? Hard to manage? I read that it can be disastrous in the tank if it releases nutrients - is that something to be realistically concerned about? I have zero experience with it so far.
Its actually quite nice looking imo. It grows 1000 times faster than any other macro and there are lats of different types.
It does grow so fast though that it will quite easily take over the tank and choke out other algae. It attaches itself onto the rock work so you pull parts of it out and think its gone and next thing you know its back.
Yes crashing the colony is very bad.
Basically if you want a tank of different types of caulerpa then I would say its fine.
Otherwise i would avoid it
Is going for a "low tech planted" (LTP) concept realistic in the marine side? I have been encouraged by the possibility that it is, and people mentioned that it is basically like a refugarium tank.
Definately possible!
Shaun had a very nice nano for a long time that was a planted tank. I think it was a bio cube 12g with 2 cf's in it. He did his WC every few weeks with RO water and the tank looked great. He had a few macro algae in there but the caulerpa took over the tank quite quickly. Soon it was a caulerpa tank, a few snails, and a bunch of neat and small shrimp. He used to pull the caulerpa out by the hendfull every few weeks.
It did look great!
But he was limited to just the one algae.
I would say 10% WC would suffice every few weeks.
If you see the water "yellowing" slightly you can just increase the frequence of your WC's
Thank you for your last post, which did feed back some encouragement. For the past little while I was beginning to feel discouraged with the whole thing... contemplating trying to convince the kids against marine for the big tank in the play room.
Would a predominantly caulerpa tank look attractive? The big issue with my wife is that it *MUST* look good.
At this moment, based on these discussions my mind is still teetering whether to do the big tank in salt. Maybe will do fresh (tried & true), and take the current tiny 5g tank they have and try the salt in it instead for a test venture into marine. I think that salt *could* look beautiful, but if I screw this up I'll loose points with my wife who is slightly less than favorable to this hobby. However I believe that if I could get "nemo" & pals, including a "spongebob" starfish to live in an aesthetically pleasing tank then it could win her over. It is a gamble.
My 21g is currently empty, and I was planning to start on sunday. I've got to make up my mind quickly. Unfortunately I am getting mixed thoughts on this whole thing now. Also some people, on various threads, this one included, are either encouraging or discouraging some things, which add to my confusion.
I don't know... I just don't know...
Oh, I forgot to ask twice now. The red macro algae (I love red plants). Is it locally available?
Quote from: HappyGuppy on February 10, 2011, 11:58:43 AM
Oh, I forgot to ask twice now. The red macro algae (I love red plants). Is it locally available?
red gracilaria algae - Careful when purchasing some if you do. A lot of it is harvested for feeding purposed and might not attach to rocks to continue growth. Thats what I have read anyways. I have been trying to get my hands on some for a bit now.. but no one has any or wants to trade for some. :(
My Tang would LOVE to eat this stuff..
Looking at that lovely red plant, and a few others, has re-sparked my enthusiasm to do this. It looks like Tony the Tiger would say "gggggGGGGRRRR8888!". I would very much like to find it, and a few other cool things.
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Ok, here is an new alternate question regarding substrate.
Could I use an inert substrate, like for regular freshwater, and hide some containers filled with aragonite in the back of the tank? Perhaps behind some live rock, and macro algae? Oh, how about in a terra cotta pot, filled with the aragonite, and then try to get caulerpa to grow around the pot so that it would be invisible? Or perhaps placed in a back corner, then stack some live rock around it to hide it. Would it still have the buffering action?
The reason why I ask is that if I fail at salt it would be easier to transition back to fresh. The only obstacle is that my wife & kids like tacky looking colorful gravel (pinks, blues, greens, yellows, etc). It is however something I am willing to concede with. Might work with some spongebob tank decos. Not *my* preference. Anyhow, could it be used in the marine tank? Live rock would still be there, and hopefully the pot of aragonite if considered to be acceptable.
The only obstacle is that my wife & kids like tacky looking colorful gravel (pinks, blues, greens, yellows, etc). It is however something I am willing to concede with.
is this tacky looking colorful enough for you? 8)
(https://www.ovas.ca/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Freefkeeping.com%2Fissues%2F2008-07%2Ftotm%2Fimages%2FftsMAINsm.jpg&hash=8aafc6bdc5c9b56d7f4b09dd00a3305dd59240b8)
Though his macro algae sucks... ;D ;D
I'm not sure I understand your post Hookup. Could you explain the joke?
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Still trying to get some chaeto. Lot's of people offered it, but most are too far. Beertech offered some, but I can't get ahold of him. I went to BA's today, but they don't have any. It seems harder to get than I imagined. At least picked up a hunk of live rock to do a sea monkey bowl in (immediate gratification of saltwater micro tank). Also went to marinescape @ 10am, stood peeking through the glass... they open at 11. :(
Hookup linked to something on ReefCentral, but they don't like people doing that and what you see in his post is their standard "Don't link to us" image.
Yeah.. Sorry bout that... The link was an amazingly colored SPS dominated tank.... Crazy colors...
Nothing to see here... :)
I don't see a link.
Quote from: Hookup on February 12, 2011, 05:19:16 PM
Yeah.. Sorry bout that... The link was an amazingly colored SPS dominated tank.... Crazy colors...
Nothing to see here... :)
Here we go.
Here is a Youtube video as well of a sweet looking tank
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V70KV_dZ9UE&feature=player_embedded
For what it is worth I did some more research. For typical marine tank setups (FOWLR, coral reef) I would actually agree now that using crushed oyster shell, due to the phosphates, would be a bad idea. However for macroalgae tanks it is actually needed. Some people also fertilize their macroalgae tanks to ensure that they grow, and I've even seen a post somewhere suggesting to use oyster shell in a macrotank for the phosphates.
As I am trying to encourage volunteer macroalgae from my liverock (hoping for cool stuff - kind of like a surprise goodie bag of mysterious contents) I added a pinch (yes, very carefully measured pinch ;) of mono potassium phosphate, potassium nitrate, and some trace elements. Of course Barnie ("Rubble" I named my sole live rock) is currently tanning under a lamp. Crossing fingers over the next month.
HappyGuppy I think you might remember some of my tanks? I had many planted tanks hi-tech and low tech so I under stand your comparison to s/w setups plus know that side of things. I kept many plants not common to others too. For over 2 years a researched and asked questions before even starting to set up a s/w tank plus my aquaria experience on top of that. I learned much from listening to RedBelly, Hookup and other experienced reefers online here and else where. I asked many questions and listened to the answers. The key thing I learned is trying to save money with short cuts will cost you more in the end. It also is a great way to turn people off of the s/w hobby. Don't get me wrong there are many ways to save money in this hobby but the standards aren't the way to cut corners.
Just search OVAS for hair algae, tank crashed, fish died, etc. in the s/w section you will be unimpressed. Then go back and look at some posts by those members before those and often you will find they asked a question then went against the common sense advice by the experienced reefers. Then finally you often see they posted their setup for sale - for cheap here or on other sites like Used Ottawa.
Is this side of the hobby expensive - yes & no. If you do it once it is less expensive and it is more expensive than f/w - for the most part yes. You can setup a FOWLR tank quite cheaply actually even less than a hi-tech planted tank.
Not trying to be a smart ass or insulting HappyGuppy just trying to help ya save money and enjoy - I have by listening! Listen to what these characters have to say they know their stuff!
Thank you all wise ones. Despite enthusiasm I do listen. In short I've decided to not do any crazy things to the main tank, predominately because of the insistence of you guys(gals). Basically it is a FOWLR & macro. Substrate is just crushed coral, but plan to toss in some aragonite based upon the advice from you guys. I'm not using the other stuff in the tank.
For the attempt to grow out some volunteer macros I have a bowl which I'm trying the experience with, and added nutrients to that, not the main tank. Last thing I want is an ugly display tank; the bowl however is welcome to become a mess - will extract the macros once they are ready. This aspect of the hobby is what actually appeals to me the most. My kids want Nemo; I want cool marine "plants" (macroalgae). Maybe this a gateway drug towards corals, but I don't know... I can foresee years of enjoying macros before they become old.
In short I want a good experience with the tank so am happy to listen to the wisdom of those who have been doing this for longer. I do have an experimenting personality, and so will soon set up another smaller tank for that purpose, and in that tank can live with any consequences that happen. The main tank *must* look good (wife).
Dan, it has been a long time since I've been to your place, but I do remember your awesome setups. Is there anyone who had more plant types than you in Ottawa? All you other people, particularly RedBelly... haven't seen your setups, but would imagine them to be exceptional.
Thank you all.
OK stop making me miss my plants. ;) Actually only a little love this side of things and have no money left for plants. With my marine setup and Malawi tank I never have to prune rocks. The planted setups are expensive and time consuming. A great planted tank can take as much even more time to manage then a basic marine tank (sometimes).
I've read many times a FOWLR is just a reef tank in waiting... LOL You like growing things corals are very interesting. You can start with frags and build up. There are low tech coral tanks too like softies and some others.
Quote from: dan2x38 on February 21, 2011, 05:41:14 PM
OK stop making me miss my plants. ;) Actually only a little love this side of things and have no money left for plants. With my marine setup and Malawi tank I never have to prune rocks. The planted setups are expensive and time consuming. A great planted tank can take as much even more time to manage then a basic marine tank (sometimes).
I've read many times a FOWLR is just a reef tank in waiting... LOL You like growing things corals are very interesting. You can start with frags and build up. There are low tech coral tanks too like softies and some others.
OMG :o You got rid of your plants???? Ok, won't say any more. I miss my plants too. I think that I do understand you from what you wrote. I too found pruning to be quite the chore - fun at first, but then when life gets busy wife *nags* once tanks get "ugly". I contemplated getting back into gathering plants like before, but decided against it. I still have quite a few plant varieties, but perhaps just 25% of what I used to have. Perhaps like you I too have felt a calling to salt. I have set up a planted brackish. Now I'm working on getting the marine setup. Honestly it is the marine that is currently of my highest interest - and the diversity of macros algae is really exciting me, though it seems much harder to get than plants locally. Pretty soon I'm sure that I'll be a "macro collector" like I used to do with plants (((begging... anyone have any cool macros???))) I like what you said, that a FOWLR is just a reef in waiting. I'd just add the alternative... a macro tank in waiting. I think that soon I'll have to give corals a try too. I'm sure that the "bug will bite" once I get some basic frags in a few weeks (my tank is still too young). Thanks for pointing out the low tech coral tanks (like softies) - I shall research this further.
I am contemplating to convert my brackish tank to marine - just to have a second cool tank. Once I have enough macros to enjoy I'll probably actually do it.
Well Dan, I hope to one day have some excuse to visit you again to see what kind of setup you now have. From what I remember of you I'm sure that it will be worth the trip to see.
Check out the shaving brush... I want some of this I think it is cool stuff. Whenever I hear of it I go there it is usually sold out. :-( If ya have some that means it should be good for resale and/or trading. ;) It is another good nutrient exporter.