Hello,
I have just set up a Fluval Ebi with the shrimp stratum, rocks (slate and river rocks), driftwood and some plants (1 anubia and 3 bunches of pennywort). I have a 25 w heater (temp. 78) and the stock filter to which I have added bio media/noodles.
The tap water (to which I have added BettaPlus water conditioner and let rest over night) tested at
The 6-6.5 range with the Nutrafin test kit. I filled the tank in the morning and tested it that night and PH was at 5-5.5. This morning I did a 50% water change and PH was at 6-6.5. I just retested and the PH is back down to 5-5.5.
I realise that the FSS lowers PH, and that driftwood should as well, but at that level I am worried about what I can house In the tank. Most. Fish and plants seem to have a low PH tolerance of 6.
Should I try to raise the PH?, Take out the wood?
Thank you for your help!
Nat.
Hi Nat,
What do you want to keep in the tank?
What does your test kit read the PH of the water right out of the tap at?
Regards
Hello Charlie,
Thank you for replying!
I just tested my tap water and it is at 6-6.5 right out of the tap.
I was thinking of a Betta, a snail or two, perhaps shrimp, but that might be difficult with a betta ;)
Cheers!
Nat.
My guess is the driftwood. Try it without and test the Ph again for a couple of days.
Thank you Saltcreep!, I will take it out, do a water change and check again.
Cheers,
Nat.
You can try mixing some aragonite in with your substrate to boost the ph...
If you have low KH, the pH can fluctuate widely. My first guess is either the wood or the stratum is lowering the pH, but if you very slightly (and I do mean very slightly given teh size of the tank) adjust the kh to say 2-4 degrees your pH should be a lot more stable. That said, pH should normally fluctuate at different times of the day.
Thank you for the advice!
I will get a kh test first and see if I need to adjust. Is that the role of aragonite?
I took the driftwood out and made a 40% water change and will re-test water later tonight and tomorrow. I'm crossing my fingers:)
Cheers,
Nat.
Just a heads up, most Ottawa municpal water has low kh in my experience, so I wouldn't be surprised if you get a zero reading.
Hi Nat a few things that jumps out at me - I`m a bit surprised your tap water right out of the tap is being reported by your kit @ 6-6.5 where are you located? if it`s in Ottawa i would be suspicious of your test kit.
Another thing is in my experience tap water usually drops a bit in Ph after degassing when taken from the tap, your tap water is testing @ 6-6.5 & doing the same even after it sits in the tank over night.
With the soft water we get in Ottawa the stratum substrate does buffer your PH levels between 1/2 a PH point & 1.5 PH point, .
I would not support keeping Betta with smaller shrimp,chances are the Betta will be one happy fish & the shrimp not so happy.
For reference i use both the Fluval shrimp & plant stratum in 3 different tanks , 2 of which are heavily co2 injected & i don`t mess with trying to increase the KH of the water both plants & animals are doing great including cherry shrimp,Amano shrimp & Crystal red shrimp.
My dedicated Crystal Red shrimp tank does not get CO 2 injection or any fertilization but has the Fluval shrimp stratum & the PH is down to around 6- shrimp is happy as can be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhfMmA1hHjk&feature=youtu.be
These are just my personal experiences.
Regards
Thank you exv152 and Charlie,
I forgot to mention it in my original post, I'm in Gatineau, in the Hull sector. I have searched and have not been able to find any info about Gatineau water online; I also asked a lfs what their experience was with PH, and I was told in the 7 range but that it varied. My next move is to call the city and see what they say. I have been wondering about my test kit, I might try another brand.
That is a beautiful tank Charlie, the shrimp contrast beautifully against the lush green of the plants and the darkness of the substrate. They do look quite happy!
I have a question regarding the substrate, would an increased quantity affect the Ph?, I have added more than the amount provided with the tank (1/2 a bag). I did this at the initial setup.
I have tested the water again and after taking out the wood and water change it is still at 5-5.5.
I will do another water change tomorrow and re-test. Hopefully I will get some info from the city to confirm whether my test kit is accurate.
Thanks again for all your help.
Cheers,
Nat.
Quote from: Nataqua on March 27, 2012, 05:49:00 AM
I forgot to mention it in my original post, I'm in Gatineau, in the Hull sector. I have searched and have not been able to find any info about Gatineau water online; I also asked a lfs what their experience was with PH, and I was told in the 7 range but that it varied. My next move is to call the city and see what they say. I have been wondering about my test kit, I might try another brand.
you can also take a water sample to La Niche( a OVAS sponsor) & ask them to test it.There is also a number of aquariust from your area on this very board who can share their experiences as to what PH etc the water comes out of the tap at.
QuoteThat is a beautiful tank Charlie, the shrimp contrast beautifully against the lush green of the plants and the darkness of the substrate. They do look quite happy!
Thanks Nat
QuoteI have a question regarding the substrate, would an increased quantity affect the Ph?, I have added more than the amount provided with the tank (1/2 a bag). I did this at the initial setup.
I`m inclined to believe it will, i have experienced this in my dedicated shrimp tank that i linked the video to.
Hope this helps
I'm in Gatineau (Gatineau Sector) and water out of the tap is around 7-7.5 usually settles around 6.5-7 after a little while and drops to about 6 because of the peat in my canister filter.
I second Errol's suggestion to take a sample to La Niche. They'll tell you right away and you can get a newer test kit while you're there if yours is kaputt.
Eric
Personally, I wouldn't waste my money on another test kit when I could get la niche to do it for free...if it really is as low as your kit says you can spend your money on something to raise it. Aragonite as mentioned earlier will do that and keep it stable...as long as you dont mind white mixed in with what you've got...almost any fish in any LFS has a huge range of ph it can survive happily in...I've tested ph once in each of my FW tank and have had minimal casualties, with an abundance of babies in almost a year.
Hey thank's again for all the advice and info!
I have been at La Niche a few times now, that's where I asked about the PH, I never thought of having the water tested there. It never even cross my mind that test kits could be flawed. I will try to go to La Niche this WE. I called the city this morning and someone from Environmental services should call me back with info about the PH.
Regarding a new test kit, if it happens that mine is incorrect, should I not trust the other tests and just throw everything out?, its a mini master test kit with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests. If anyone can reccomend a brand, that would be great! Thank you Brotherluv for trying to save me money ;-) I actually ran out of the PH test this morning, it did not last very long, anyways I will wait till I get results from the city and La Niche to see where I go from there.
Is aragonite easy to get?, I would not mind at all if I had white specs, as long as I can have a proper PH! I have learned that as long as the PH is stable that fish will be ok and can adapt, if a PH of 5 does not hurt the fish then I would be very happy with not trying to play too much with the water parameters.
Bizfromque, I would gladly take your 6 :-) I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I am hoping my test kit is bad ;-)
Thank you!
Nat.
Quote from: Nataqua on March 27, 2012, 10:40:54 AM
Hey thank's again for all the advice and info!
I have been at La Niche a few times now, that's where I asked about the PH, I never thought of having the water tested there. It never even cross my mind that test kits could be flawed. I will try to go to La Niche this WE. I called the city this morning and someone from Environmental services should call me back with info about the PH.
Regarding a new test kit, if it happens that mine is incorrect, should I not trust the other tests and just throw everything out?, its a mini master test kit with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests. If anyone can reccomend a brand, that would be great! Thank you Brotherluv for trying to save me money ;-) I actually ran out of the PH test this morning, it did not last very long, anyways I will wait till I get results from the city and La Niche to see where I go from there.
Is aragonite easy to get?, I would not mind at all if I had white specs, as long as I can have a proper PH! I have learned that as long as the PH is stable that fish will be ok and can adapt, if a PH of 5 does not hurt the fish then I would be very happy with not trying to play too much with the water parameters.
Bizfromque, I would gladly take your 6 :-) I cannot believe I'm saying this, but I am hoping my test kit is bad ;-)
Thank you!
Nat.
Test kits are handy and useful to have around when something is off and to steer you in the right direction and essential when cycling a tank. I have the NutraFin Mini Master Kit and it has been working great for me.
I wouldn't worry too much about the low pH though as long as you're not intending on keeping needy or delicate sensitive fish. I think most fish would adjust to your params and would try it out before monkeying around with chemicals and additives.
You can get aragonite from any SW sponsor on here. I use it for my Malawi cichlid tank. Good luck :)
My 2 cents would be don`t try to manipulate water parameters Like Eric suggested, fish is far more adaptable than we give them credit for - the key is stability .
Agreed :)
Agreed! There are lots of fish that will happily adapt to that water. It'll just be a matter of very slowly acclimatizing them to the new water conditions when you buy them.
As another suggestion to increase the PH and KH (if that's the route you really want to go) you can use the Tulfa Rock. It looks like a beige lava rock. You don't need much and it adds an interesting decor component to the tank. I use it in one of my tanks to raise the PH to 8...only I have 2 fist sized bits in a 5 gallon tank.
Agreed as well! :-) I am not too comfortable with the idea of messing around with the water parameters as I am a complete beginner to fishkeeping. I will, however be keeping the aragonite and tulfa rock (Wow! that's very effective Fishnut) in mind if I find I am having problems when I start cycling. Which I have yet to do... and I will definitely be needing a test kit.
Thank you all so much for your thoughtful insight, it is greatly appreciated.
Nat.
Understanding the relationship of KH and pH is something every aquarist should be well versed in. I'm not suggesting changing pH as much as I am suggesting if she wishes to control pH fluctuations, controlling KH would be key - if she chooses to go that route but it's not necessary. Adjusting KH is much safer than say going with a chemical to alter the pH only (which is often sold with the full pH test kits). I DO NOT recommend using those ever. Be careful some stores may want to sell those kits to you but they're more hassle than they're worth. It's a given that the more you mess with water chemistry the harder it becomes to keep stable. That said, a tiny boost of KH in any tank will not do any harm because it is safe (which is what the argonite would do - boost KH). And it can help prevent something called a pH crash. In my 26 years of keeping aquarium fish I've had it happen once and it almost killed every fish in the tank, so when I say it helps, that comes from my personal experience with this municipality's water.
Before going reef I had a Tanganika Setup in my Thank I've always had Aragonite and it was just fine, never had to worried about the PH and the Alk
I appreciate your input regarding KH exv152, I agree with you, I have yet to completely grasp that concept and need to read more about it. I will be getting a kh test as I'm seeing it come up more and more as I do research and it will help put this in context for me if I know what my values are.
I will wait and see what PH levels the city and La Niche give me, I might just have a bad test kit. I am keeping the aragonite in mind if I have problems cycling (apparently bacteria cannot survive at PH levels below 5.5.)
Thank you for your advice!
Nat.
Quote from: Nataqua on March 27, 2012, 03:21:39 PM
I will wait and see what PH levels the city and La Niche give me, I might just have a bad test kit. I am keeping the aragonite in mind if I have problems cycling (apparently bacteria cannot survive at PH levels below 5.5.)...
Exactly. When the pH drops too far basically all bacteria is eradicated, and you'll have a huge ammonia (in this case ammonium spike - which is less harmful) or nitrate spike in the tank (especially if it's densly populated) hence the term pH crash. To prevent this you can also put argonite, crushed coral etc in a media bag and place it in your filter. This takes a while but it will begin to buffer the kh in a very gradual & natural manner. My first guess is the stratum is absorbing huge amounts of minerals from the water, which is not always bad, but you want to keep an eye on it especially as it reaches critical low levels like 5. Whatever you do don't add baking soda to the water (some LFS employees may suggest it) because this will only create wild pH swings that are just as harmful to the fish. The pH changes are not harmful per se to the fish, but it's the rate in ph change that can be fatal.
I like the natural and gradual method of adding aragonite or crushed coral exv152, I'm not sure I like the idea of adding chemical product after chemical product... I was also thinking further about the low ph, I would have to keep my refill water at the same ph, as to not create a huge jump. It's not that big a deal, but if buffering the KH only requires adding something and avoiding ph imbalances it might be easier than trying to match the ph at every water change.
I have a question for you about aragonite and crushed shells, how long do they last or for how long will it buffer the ph?
Thank you,
Nat.
Hey Nat, I personally hardly ever measure pH because it really doesn't mean much. However, maintaining a steady carbonate hardness will mean your ph won't fluctuate that much. The higher the kh the more stable the ph will be, thus no need to worry too much about matching ph when doing WCs. Most aquarists doing heavily planted tanks w/ high lighting, co2 etc, don't worry too much about kh because they're recharging the water parameters each week with heavy 50% water changes. But if you plan on doing plants and smaller water changes, you'll notice the kh will slowly deplete. Plants use it as an alternate carbon source.
How often to change it? When you notice lower kh readings it may mean it's time to change the crushed corals, but that could take a while.
Hey thank you Eric (I just noticed your name at the bottom...)
Got it! I will get that test, that's good to know.
Thank you for the great advice, and information.
Cheers,
Natalie
Hello everyone,
I just got a call from the person responsible for water quality in Gatineau, and he said the pH range since January was of 7.2. I asked if it was possible to have a value of 6-6.5 and he said that they never get such low values because if they did, it would have alerted them to add more lime (which they do every day because of the low alkalinity of the river) and that the pH ranges between 7-7.7 after the water is treated. He was very kind and helpful.
I was very happy to hear that!, I will now take some tank water to La Niche to be tested and start cycling; my poor plants must be starving ;)
Thank you again everyone for all the great info and advice, its been invaluable.
Nat.
No problem Nat. That's what the forum is for. Did the Gatineau water guy offer to send you a copy of the municipality's testing results. Because I did the same a while back and someone from the city of Ottawa sent me an excel spreadsheet report with more than what I needed to know, in very very fine detail. Very helpful. The city of Ottawa also has similar parameters from what I remember seeing (low to zero carbonate hardness KH, and neutral pH).
Hey Eric,
He did not offer a full report, no, i was just happy to speak to someone ;) He actually mentionned that they very rarely get calls from aquarists, but mostly from people wanting to know if we have fluoride in our water, which we dont.
I was so encouraged that I placed an old stocking foot with a teaspoon of shrimp food in the tank to start cycling last night... I had also noticed some fine grey/white hair algea about a day after I transfered my plants to the tank, which now seems to be slowly going away since I added the moss ball (might be my imagination?) I had forgotten all about it and left it behind in the little one gallon. I thought I might take out the pennywort this weekend and gently wash off what is left of the algea in the roots, all along the stems, in some tank water.
I will get a kh/gh test hopefully this we, I very curious now to know what the values are. I found a table that gives (approximatively I think) the amount of Co2 based on pH and kH values. But I digress ;)
Have a lovely weekend!
Cheers,
Nat.
Quote from: Nataqua on March 30, 2012, 02:24:08 PMI will get a kh/gh test hopefully this we, I very curious now to know what the values are. I found a table that gives (approximatively I think) the amount of Co2 based on pH and kH values. But I digress ;)
Have a lovely weekend! Cheers, Nat.
Hey Nat, As long as you have some kh in the water you're fine. As for measuring co2, the chart for kh/ph values can be useful, but not horribly accurate. Drop checkers solutions are not much better in my opinion, but they look nice. Have a good weekend!