It took me long enough to locate and acquire some bolbitis
And now it's dying. I have no idea.
The tips started to brown out, and before the leaves turn completely brown the stems are melting.
There are new growths but I'm not sure they'll make it...
Meanwhile, my Hemanthius Cuba & Glosso are doing great. Go figure.
30 ppm CO2
EI dosing
76 F. temp
Could it possibly be a lack of calcium (my softener removes it all)?
Or is this just normal transition phase (planted 2-3 weeks ago)
Mine didn't melt, I got some from two different sources. I know the plant likes harder water, african water fern, so it could be the lack of calcium. I know it does not require bright lighting, but I have to add coral to my filter to keep the kh and gh up. Do you have any Equilibrium on hand?
My KH is between 18-20 and GH usually 4-6.
I don't use Equilibrium. Maybe I should. But then the added Iron will stack with my Traces mix :x
I had some in my cichlid tank with crushed coral aragonite substrate and lace rock, it grew about 4x the original size in 4 months with no additives or C02 so I think your water params might not be best suited for it.
I've never had that happen. How much light do you have over it, and is it in direct light or shaded? I set up a friend in North Gower and I don't think he has had any problems with growing plants in softened water. I'll ask him if he has any Bolbitis (I forget if I gave him any). But you and I talked about your set up when you got it, and I don't remember that lighting was going to be an issue!
Oh, you didn't bury the roots did you?
Quote from: wolfiewill on August 13, 2013, 04:38:55 PM
Oh, you didn't bury the roots did you?
Oh yeah, you can't bury the roots. Just jam it between some rocks and let it send its own roots where it wants.
I have them growing in very hard water and very soft water. I don't have any additive or co2 in my tank.
No, no I didn't bury the roots ;) All are tied to driftwood with elastics bands or tie wraps that I'll remove once they get a hold.
Lights are 3x 54W T5HO for 7.5h a day, sitting about 5" above the surface (on a 60g, approx. 48" wide by 15" deep by 18" high). The tubes are overdue for replacement but I'm not quite ready to blame less-than-optimal color spectrum, I mean... HC and Glosso are growing fast, it can't be that bad.
There was an ammonia spike for a couple days before I did my last WC, most likely due to moving substrate around when I planted (I re-planted the entire tank over the course of 3 weeks). I also lost 5 oto cats in a week due to fungus and only found 2 already half decomposed so that would contribute to the spike. Ammonia is back to 0 now.
Nitrate was also a bit high, so I've reduced my EI dosage (NO3) by 30%. Will see how it goes this week.
Iron was at 0 when I tested before my WC Sunday. I am dosing traces (mix from B&B) as per the baseline EI dosage, I was expecting ~1.5ppm but didn't even get a reading on my Seachem test (there's no date on it.. do they ever expire?). I increased trace dosage by 30% this week.
At first I though this was just a transition side-effect. 80% of the ferns came from wolfiewill and were in perfect shape, the other 20% came by mail from aqmagic in empty/sealed bags and were in very good shape (appearance wise) when received. Maybe they had a hard time transitioning from emerged to submerged?
Quote from: magnosis on August 14, 2013, 09:56:48 AMAt first I though this was just a transition side-effect. 80% of the ferns came from wolfiewill and were in perfect shape, the other 20% came by mail from aqmagic in empty/sealed bags and were in very good shape (appearance wise) when received. Maybe they had a hard time transitioning from emerged to submerged?
I got a portion from wolfiewill too a while back and it's doing good, but there was a period in which it had to acclimate to its new environment. I think it has less to do with the "ideal parameters" because it can be grown in a wide range of parameters as is evident with the replies here, and it probably has more to do with its acclimation to your parameters. Other plants like crypts tend to melt with transition/acclimation too, but as long as the rhizome is still healthy the plant should bounce back. Also, bolbitus really does well in a high flow area of the tank from my personal experience.
Water column parameters are not important. If your other plants are doing well leave that as is. I've grown Bolbitis at lots of macro levels, and never tried iron at more than Seachem Comprehensive at 0.5 ml/g.
Exv152 may be right about water flow. The stuff you got from me was grown with a lot of water flow. There is a power head and an Ehiem 2215 filter directed at it. Come and I'll give you some more, and place it under the outflow of a hang-on-the-back filter. I used an AquaClear 50s for years that way.
Thanks for the advice!!!
a) I think I've lost only 1 rizome. Hard to tell because I actually can't see half of them ;) They're well hidden behind wood & other plants and whatnot.
b) I see new growths on some rizome. Yay!
c) Yup, I need more flow. I had posted about this but was request to post pictures to get proper advise. Will follow up on that thread when I get a hold of my wife's camera (took some with my cellphone yesterday but they turned out to be terrible terrible shots lol)
Quote from: magnosis on August 13, 2013, 01:48:31 PM
My KH is between 18-20 and GH usually 4-6.
Sorry I took so long to get back. Ok, it's already been established that water parameters don't influence the growth of bolbitis on their own, (maybe it would have to adapt) but your kh is way higher than mine, and gh is the same anyway.
Quote from: magnosis on August 14, 2013, 09:56:48 AM
No, no I didn't bury the roots ;) All are tied to driftwood with elastics bands or tie wraps that I'll remove once they get a hold...............
...............the other 20% came by mail from aqmagic in empty/sealed bags and were in very good shape (appearance wise) when received. Maybe they had a hard time transitioning from emerged to submerged?
Just a little question, it is best not to tie across the rhizome too tightly, it can cut off the circulation, don't know if you did. Secondly, I bought some anubias nana from ebay, and they got to me in perfect shape, but required a long time to recover from emersed growth to submerged. Like months. In my case, some of the rhizome developed rot. I cut off any spoiled parts, and it regrew with leaves being about half the size as they originally were when received. I got narrowleaf java fern from the same source as your bolbitis, and it grew, but very slowly, many leaves had to be cut off.
I would agree with everyone, if your other plants are doing ok, then the bolbitis should be good too since it is not very demanding. It was probably the source, being shipped from one end of the world to the other than drowned in completely different parameters it was acclimated to.
I would be unhappy too. :D
Thanks for the feedback.
My bolbitis seem to have stabilized now. There are some new growths, so I think this confirms it was simply a transition phase. I lost at least one rhizome, the rest seem to be okay.
I can't say the tank as a whole is doing well though. My bet is that many plants are suffering from calcium & magnesium depravation. Bad calcium to magnesium ratios (or the lack thereof) seem to be a common cause of green spot algae, which is now severely affecting all of my plants with the exception of HC and Glosso, the fastest growers I have.
I've seen black brush, staghorn, green spot and hair algae make an appearance over the last 2 weeks. CO2 is pretty stable around 30ppm, and I keep dosing as per EI recommended dosage although I've cut down on Nitrates and bumped up traces (Iron) a bit based on my last measurements.
Seachem Equilibrium might be the answer.
Do you guys know if dosing that will/should affect my trace dosage at all - because both contain Iron, and my trace dose is entirely based on the Iron concentration. If I cut down on trace, I'm afraid my plants will run out of, well, every trace element except Iron?
Whoa, your regimen is way more complex than mine, I don't know about trace, but I assume it would be similar to equilibrium.........all I know is that the guaranteed analysis says calcium is 8.06% and magnesium is 2.41% and thats what I reach for when my anubias and hard water loving plants begin to show signs of not being happy. I guess I could learn more and dose more regularly. Sloluable iron is 0.11% if that helps. Equilibrium says it "restores and maintains mineral balance and GH".
I do not have any c02 set up yet, I have not yet got into that, I am a patient plant grower, but I also see algae of the sorts you mention pop up, and I absolutely LOVE my nerite snails to scrape off that tough green spot algae, the only thing I have found to get rid of this. As an example I added 3 zebra nerites to a 5g with green spot algae on the leaves of a dwarf sword, and they wiped it clean in 1 day!!! Although the leaves were already damaged. It grew back :) As long as the snails are there, I see no algae.
Quote from: magnosis on August 22, 2013, 02:06:27 PM...CO2 is pretty stable around 30ppm...
How are you dosing co2, are you using a diffuser/reactor etc? And how are you measuring co2, are you using a drop checker, the kh/ph chart?
I would suggest before you start worrying about Cal. & Mag. ( which I have doubts is your issue), you start by checking your phosphates ,it`s not uncommon to increase your phosphates even though your test kit maybe saying you are at your dosing suggestion.
What are your light specs & how long are you running them for? most issues can be controlled by getting your lighting right.
Regards
@angelcraze: pressurized CO2, EI dosing & Traces are not that elaborate :) it's the most basic of high tech setups
4:1 Ca:Mg ratio seems about right. I need to dig up another article I read a while back, some guy was developing another dosing method that I really liked (I think his scientific approach was excellent) and proper Ca:Mg was the first thing to get right, before lights, co2, and anything else. Will get back on this...
@exv152: Pressurized CO2, currently diffused via ceramic disc placed under the output of a filter. I use 2 drop checkers (http://dropcheck.petalphile.com/)on the other side of the tank and they tell me I'm at ~30ppm.
@charlie:
- My last PO4 test was showing none. Because my Nitrates were high and I modified the dosage, I decided to not change other dosage at the same time and check one thing at a time.
- Lights were just replaced last week. 3 Coralias 54W T5HO, 2x FloraSun 5000K and 1x Marine 10,000K (yeah.. that's almost useless but that's all the LFS has in stock)
- You don't seem to be concerned by it, but personally I'm nearly convinced that 0 Ca and 0 Mg is definitely a concern ;)
So yeah, I have to find that article. The combination of green spot algae and lack of Ca & Mg is why I'm so keen on this, because this was the 1st step of his approach: adjust Ca & Mg until you no longer see GSA, then use that dose and start addressing other elements...
-
I've never heard of algae caused by a Ca or Mg defficiency. If you were deficient in these elements your plants would show symptoms instead. Most algae loves inconsistent co2 levels, and low nitrates and phosphates, ime. I would go back to EI dosing and doing large water changes at the end of the week.
Word of advice, test kits are the root of headaches -I follow the school of thought that our hobby test kits are no where near accurate.
This hobby has several approaches to the same result, so I will follow your progress, never too old to learn ;)
My last post contained some inaccuracies. Sorry, it's been a while I read this article I mentioned.
Found it: MCI - Method of Controlled Imbalance, by Christian Rubilar (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/69737-method-controlled-imbalances-summary.html).
Quote from: Christian Rubilar
The 4:1 ratio Ca:Mg cannot be sucesfully use under water. When there is too much Po4 in the water and you have an imbalance in the Ca:Mg ratio, you will have GDA. In my experience, if you add this macros, the ratio should be the opposite 1:4 Ca:Mg. The inmediate consequence of this idea is that you can't add too much Ca because Mg cannot be added in large amounts.
We can find out how much Ca:Mg we need in the same way I propose to do it with No3 and Po4. However, I sugest you better wait a little more if you are a beginner.
The MG protocol is:
1. First day 50% water change.
2. Stop fertilizing at all.
3. Add 0.3 ppm of Mg daily until the algae ".3. RODOPHYTAS SP. 3" blooms.
4. Then use the specific protocol for this algae you will find at the algae control chapter.
With this simple steps you will know how much Mg you need. About Ca, just add 25% of the Mg.
I'm not saying that bad Ca and Mg dosage will automatically yield algae X Y Z. But as with other elements we're dosing, the lack thereof will slow plant growth and thus indirectly promote algae growth.
I'm not a chemist, nor a biologist, but it seems fair enough that at least *some* Ca and Mg are required for proper plant growth.
And it's pretty interesting to read about 1:4 Ca:Mg ratio whereas most other source will recomment 4:1...
I am not going to say one is right and one is wrong. What I think, is that his approach is sound, and his way to measure it seems fairly solid. Incrementally adjust each element, and measure via algae blooms. Sounds like what a lot of the EI folk are doing isn't it? Observe, measure, change, observe again, iterate, ...
yields to algae (or .. maybe I implied it but anyways, I stand corrected lol) I'm saying that 0 Ca and 0 Mg will eventually yield to
Eric does have a good point, if your Mg & Ca readings are truly 0 , your plants will be exhibiting deficiencies
It is thought that regular water changes will supply enough Ca & Mg, unless your water source is missing them, they are times due to plant mass that they do require supplementing.
Check this out
http://www.rexgrigg.com/Algae1.html
http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-plants/12744-deficiency-list-plants.html
Charlie, yes my plants show deficiencies :) I can't put my finger on which ones precisely, never been good at that.
My water source is from a softener which almost completely depletes Ca and Mg...
These are my "fresh" water params:
Red is before softener, blue is after softener. Blue goes in my tank.
Source & discussion: http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54345.msg305288#msg305288
(all measures in ppm)
Silver (Ag) < 0.0003 --> < 0.0003
* Calcium (Ca) 140.0 --> 2.0
Cobalt (Co) < 0.02 --> < 0.02
* Copper (Cu) 0.029 --> 0.31
Iron (Fe) < 0.1 --> < 0.1
* Magnesium (Mg) 18.0 --> 0.3
Manganese (Mn) < 0.003 --> < 0.003
Potassium (K) 2.5 --> 0.9
* Sodium (Na) 71.0 --> 250.0
Zinc (Zn) < 0.005 --> 0.019
Arsenic (As) < 0.001 --> < 0.001
Barium (Ba) 0.21 --> < 0.02
Boron (B) < 0.05 --> < 0.05
Cadmium (Cd) < 0.002 --> < 0.002
Chrome (Cr) < 0.005 --> < 0.005
Lead (Pb) < 0.001 --> < 0.001
Hardness (GH) 424.0 --> 6.0 (mg/L CaCO3
Hardness (GH) 23.74 --> 0.36 (dGH)
Quote from: magnosis on August 26, 2013, 05:09:40 PM
Charlie, yes my plants show deficiencies :) I can't put my finger on which ones precisely, never been good at that.
My water source is from a softener which almost completely depletes Ca and Mg...
These are my "fresh" water params:
Red is before softener, blue is after softener. Blue goes in my tank.
Source & discussion: http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54345.msg305288#msg305288
(all measures in ppm)
Silver (Ag) < 0.0003 --> < 0.0003
* Calcium (Ca) 140.0 --> 2.0
Cobalt (Co) < 0.02 --> < 0.02
* Copper (Cu) 0.029 --> 0.31
Iron (Fe) < 0.1 --> < 0.1
* Magnesium (Mg) 18.0 --> 0.3
Manganese (Mn) < 0.003 --> < 0.003
Potassium (K) 2.5 --> 0.9
* Sodium (Na) 71.0 --> 250.0
Zinc (Zn) < 0.005 --> 0.019
Arsenic (As) < 0.001 --> < 0.001
Barium (Ba) 0.21 --> < 0.02
Boron (B) < 0.05 --> < 0.05
Cadmium (Cd) < 0.002 --> < 0.002
Chrome (Cr) < 0.005 --> < 0.005
Lead (Pb) < 0.001 --> < 0.001
Hardness (GH) 424.0 --> 6.0 (mg/L CaCO3
Hardness (GH) 23.74 --> 0.36 (dGH)
Before adding stuff, would it not be better to ID what the deficiency is , so you can adjust accordingly ?
Have you researched the requirement of Mg & Ca for your tank?
As I alluded earlier don`t put all your trust in hobby test kits, they are several variables that can deceive you.
Water from water softener in theory is not true soft water. As yourself pointed out in your test result, Sodium level is way too high and above others. Sodium ion blinded with others and gives you a false image of hardness. Do a search and see I'm right or not. Try use water from the bypass and use straight tap city water and see the grow condition able to improve or not. Good luck!
Quote from: charlie on August 27, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
Before adding stuff, would it not be better to ID what the deficiency is , so you can adjust accordingly ?
Have you researched the requirement of Mg & Ca for your tank?
True. I think my biggest problem now is GSA. It's covering grass, anubias and well pretty much every single plant except HC (not sure why) very fast. Anubias as super slow growers and that often happens with them, but I'm especially concerned about grass. I see new shoots and new leaves on a daily basis but they get covered in GSA pretty fast so it always look like nothing's ever growing (kind of)
Quote from: charlie on August 27, 2013, 11:14:43 AM
As I alluded earlier don`t put all your trust in hobby test kits, they are several variables that can deceive you.
Ahaha yes indeed, you didn't need to tell me this, I absolutely hate test kits.
Last time I spent double and got the Seachem brand. Well I like them even less because the color scale is from white to slightly purple to more purple to even more purple. Impossible to tell unless I get either white or dark purple. Anything in between is completely arbitrary. I move under a different light, I see different result. I use a bit more water, different results. It's useless.
Still, I have no cheap alternative so I use them from time to time.
The only thing I really trust is the lab on St-Raymond (in hull). It costs around 200$ but they test everything 3 times to get accurate results and use pretty high-end lab equipment.
EI is your best friend. If you follow Tom Barr's advice, meaning dose everything, then remove it, it won't matter what's deficient or in abundance, and you don't need to test anything. Reduce your lighting, and rule out co2 with the ph/kh chart, and just do a large wc once a week. Hope you get to the bottom of this, good luck!
I'm not quite ready to agree with all of that :P
ph/kh chart is .. debatable to say the least, and far from accurate at my kh level (18-20) I much prefer using the dual drop checker method even if it's delayed reading.
EI is not a dosage. EI is a method. If your dosage is too low/too high, EI will do nothing against that. At the end of the day you still need to estimate your dosage properly and adjust them. Sorry I don't mean to debate, this is just how I see things.
Anyways this is where I am having (always had) difficulties, is to adjust my dosage. I'm not good enough at telling from plants whether I dose enough, and EI does not prevent you from overdosing. If there's an external source of, say, nitrates, you will still overdose nitrates (that is my case, at least until recently, I've halved my nitrate dosage and will see if it improves).
Sorry. I'm always a bit defensive when I hear that EI is all magical and fixes all the problems... not that you said that, but I've heard it before :)
I could lower my photo period but it's not that high right now. 7 hours if I recall correctly. Not very intense either (2x54W 5000K + 1x54W 10000K) which is ~ 2 watts per gallon of 'useful' light. I'm not sure the 10000K provides anything beneficial for plants.