Favorite T5HO Bulbs for MH Supplementation

[mikerobart]

For 2x250W Phoenix 14k de  on an hqi ballast (built into my aqua medic fixture) I am looking for opinions on supplementation.

The fixture has 2x24PC actinics, but when the hqi's are on, there is not much impact from this.. placement also not optimal they are only 13" bulbs on a 48" fixture, centrally located.

So, I am consider adding a two-bulb t5ho fixture. Two bulbs is about all I can fit (want to use hanging fixtures, not do a retro etc.) One I was looking at is the Aqua medic sunbeam.. I like that the reflectors just clip on the bulbs and can be angled backwards towards the rock face.) The fixture would sit in front of the hqi's.

Basically I am going for a little more colour and fluorescence. The Phoenix 14k rocks by itself but I think I want a bit better fluorescence.

Bulbs I am looking at would be the Giesemann Pure Actinic, UVL Super Actinic, Giesemann Actinic Plus, ATI Blue Plus, and the KZ Fiji Purple. I guess I care about PAR but I'm pretty sure everything is getting enough already. This is what I am looking at for PAR data:
http://tfivetesting.googlepages.com/par.

I am having a tough time deciding between going pure actinics, pure "blues" (the blue/actinic combo bulbs), one of each, or throwing the fiji purple into the mix to help with reds / pinks.

Of course, I'd like dawn and dusk to have a cool colour, and very strong fluorescence as well.

I doubt I would have a chance to trial bulbs over the tank and see what I like best before purchasing...

Can you guys throw me some ideas / experiences?

[mikerobart]

Well I got some advice that one each of a pure actinic and a blue bulb would probably achieve what I am going for... so that is probably what I would try first.

PAR on the bulbs from the link I shared (only useful for a general relative comparison):

Pure Actinics:
UVL: 210
Giesemann: 157
ATI: 137

Blue's:
ATI: 311
Giesemann: 264

So first choice would be a UVL super actinic and a ATI blue +... I'll bump this and share some results when I figure out what I'm doing!

[Hookup]

I would put 10,000k bulbs in your T5 as supplements.  Not only would I, I did on my own system.

Here is a thread that I found on RC with some good information on it about lighting.  Short thread too, two pages thus far.
  http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1691216

Seriously, you have loads and loads of 400-500nm light from your pheonix bulb.  IMO for coloration you'll wnat to get some 500+nm light into your tank... so find red light, not blue light...  red/yellow spectrum lights are typically found at 10,000k

It's just two bulbs, $50 basically, so give it a try one way, then the other....

I can say that in the two weeks that i've been runing this backwards setup, (normally ppl supliment their MH with actinics (440nm light)), my colors are exploding... In fact... Oh, right... I cannot post a photo from here... you'll have to wait and see why my wife called me when she got home and looked at the tank tonight... lets say the iphone photo she sent has me hoppp'ing out of my chair...

[mikerobart]

I have heard of people using really blue bulbs like 20 k's and supplementing with white t5's... in my case maybe I just like the bluer colours more than some people, or maybe the hqi ballast in the fixture is overdriving a bit and burning them whiter than on an e-ballast? I haven't hooked it to a watt-meter yet...

Don't get me wrong I love the look, it's not crazy blue, and is VERY bright... the phoenix's are wayyyy brighter than the hamiltons.. but it's just missing a little something in terms of fluorescing certain colours ... I am big on fluorescence and want the colours to exploooooodddddddeeeee  .  I think 10000k t5's would push it quite a bit whiter, when I want to go a little bluer.

Your right about the red/oranges though I do have to be careful to get enough of that spectrum although right now it seems fine. The only red in my tank right now are these insane mushroom frags I got from Pat.. they look very red/orange.. almost glowing. It is more the green fluorescing stuff I am not seeing the wild colours I want. Can always try a pro-colour or fiji purple to push the reds.

Either way, it is definitely not too expensive to play around a bit and luckily I am going to be able to trial bulbs to see what I like before I buy  .

[Hookup]

follow this thread with me... i cannot answer your questions, as you'll see i'm still validating many of my own theories on photosynthesis/color and lighting.. but some of the experts are responding... it *could* work out to be a heck of a thread..

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1691216&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

[mikerobart]

Not that it's really relevant to my question but I always though zooxanthella contained chlorophyll a , the same as plants.



Of course there are other photosynthetic pigments,



But mainly A. Now note the absorbance peaks. Regardless of PAR, the chlorophyll will not absorb, and thus not be able to utilize the energy of, photons that have frequencies in the troughs of the graph, rather than the peaks.

I think PAR counts 400-700 nm radiation equally, so a bulb with huge PAR could still have terrible growth if say, it peaked in the 500-600 nm range (green/yellow).  This is why plants are green... those frequencies are reflected and not used. Try to grow a plant under a purely greenish bulb is not going to work.

I don't fully understand most of the details.. but some people seem to be confused about the basics. Perhaps I am as well.... ahhh well if my corals are growing and look pretty then I am happy. I don't think I'll be one to buy a lux meter anytime soon  .

[Hookup]

It could very well be that photons traveling at wave lenghts outside of those peaks are not able to be used in photosynthesis.  I do not have enough information to clearly say all photons traveling between 400nm and 70nnm (blue/red) are useable during photosynthesis, however I do know that the role that wavelength plays is the ability of the photon to trigger the photosynthesis reaction is higher/easier at the peaks.

That said, it does not exclude other wavelenghts from triggering the process.

Additionally, plants have chlorophyll and corals have zoox (short name, cannot even beging to spell zoaoanahothowisitgoing) which is a symbiotic organisim that creates sugars as it's biproducts of light absorbsion in a similar process to chlorophyll.

[mikerobart]

Yeah, I think the zoox contains chlorophyll as well as other photosynthetic pigments.

[Hookup]

Yeah, I think the zoox contains chlorophyll as well as other photosynthetic pigments.

You are correct, I was wrong.  I researched it a lot today (slow day at work).  Still neck deep in lighting, photosynthesis, Daily Light Integral, PAR, spectrums, bulbs, manfuctures lies and marketing... I just like to know how things work.

[Hookup]

Read that.  OMG  Table 2 is very interesting when contrasted with figure 10.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/5/aafeature

This is about the best article written, that I have found/read/heard of that attempts to put some real science behind coral growth and aquarium lighting. 

For those not willing to read it all here's the 411 on lighting based upon 2008 research by wang.

1. Get a PAR reading of +400-650 from your 460nm light sources (MH or T5 or VHO.. whatever)

2. Supplement for color/personal taste with 600-700nm light... par value's for these are not useful as 80% of PAR is lost within 20" of the surface on a 700nm light, though corals within the first 6" of the tank might suffer from too much light if you're total PAR is over 700 at depth.

3. Aim for 12hrs per day of lighting 10-14, but based upon the coral/zoox studied in the article 12 = just right.

[mikerobart]

Article looks interesting.. I will have to go through in more detail later when I have time. May change my photoperiod plans slightly.

I was thinking to do a split cycle to help control heat, I think you posted a recent TOTM in which someone used the split period and still maintained excellent growth. I was thinking having actinics/supplements come on at 7am, halides on at 8am halides off at noon halides on at 6pm halides off at 10pm actinics / supplements off at midnight.

[Hookup]

Yes, that is correct, the current TOTM winner (Aug09) runs that split cycle.  It was the first time i'd ever heard of it, and it obviously seems to be working.

[RossW]

1. Get a PAR reading of +400-650 from your 460nm light sources (MH or T5 or VHO.. whatever)

Can you trust manufacturer specs when selecting your 460nm light source?

[mikerobart]

I would bet not, but there are a good number of independent tests done by people in the hobby with equipment that may at least confirm or dispute manufacturer claims.

[RossW]

I would bet not, but there are a good number of independent tests done by people in the hobby with equipment that may at least confirm or dispute manufacturer claims.

If anyone knows of such test/info it would save me and others some google time. Selfishly, I am looking for T5 info.

[mikerobart]

Well for PAR data, this link is a good place to start:
http://tfivetesting.googlepages.com/par

For spectral data, I have seen some plots in articles of reefkeeping magazine, advanced aquarist I think ... I'll let you know if I see anything online.

The guy on RC with a huge following seems to know what he is talking about, and has more experience with t5's than most people... not necessarily good science there but good experience anyways... the t5 q&a thread there has been helpful to me in the past.

[Hookup]

Can you trust manufacturer specs when selecting your 460nm light source?

Unfortunately, not really, but equally unfortunately, there's nothing else at this pont.. (unless OVAS wants to buy a spectrograph?)

The general consensus is that manufacturer specs are based upon the bulb when it's first powered on by a specific balast.  Over time the spectrum will shift, how much and how long is unknown without testing, and it's also dependant on the balasts you drive/over-drive them with.

The only way that I can think of "knowing" for sure what your bulb/balast is outputt'ing is to use a spectrograph, and I have no idea what they cost.. could be a bazillion dollars or could be $9.95 on the home shopping network.. I just do not know.

I would think that if someone bought a spectrograph, and had a few different balasts and bulbs a series of tests could be made to quantify some of the data... leaving the lights on for 24hrs should increase the decay time for the output of the bulb so you do not have to wait 10months for results... just 5..

If someone can invent a PAR type meter that reads 400-500nm photons only, then that device could just be stuck under your bubls every couple of weeks... unfortunately, no such device exists to my knowledge.

[Hookup]

... I have no idea what they cost.. could be a bazillion dollars or could be $9.95 on the home shopping network.. I just do not know.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/7/aafeature/view

So a "real" spectrometer costs $3000 to $20,000.

A classroom fake -$29.99  See article above.

[RossW]

Thanks for all of the excellent information!!!

Do I forsee a group order for a $29.99 spectrometer