Executive matters -split from- order from armkes.com

[maitre007]

I realize that it is a matter to be discussed by the Executive Committe but I do not think it is that unreasonable for the club to subsidize a group order to armkes.

From my understanding ovas revenues were up and expenses were down in the last fiscal year.  With the addition of a 50/50  draw at the annual auction in march 2005 (that would benefit from an armkes order in september) it is reasonably foreseeable that OVAS continues it's fiscal success.

Furthermore I think the money that wasn`t spent last year in updating the chaotic ovas library would be better served in partial subsidization of pool orders.


That is just the opinion of one executive member.  I only need the support of a few others, Art, to make it happen.

What are we talking about.  $30-50.  I am sure that with Claude's cost cutting expertise, we can find room in the ovas budget for this tiny expenditure.

[artw]

this post raises some very good points which I feel should be discussed in a separate thread for everyone -

how do you feel your membership in OVAS should be spent?
if we didnt use the library budget last year (around $200) should it be put forward to something else or kept in the library budget for 2004-05 ?

for those of you who don't know.
the first 10 minutes of every bricks and mortar OVAS meeting we devote to businiess and polticis of the club. if thats even a simple as doing an election of having a quorum.  or even asking you guys what you wanna do this year in the club.

subsidizing fish orders is a very good point and if the members vote on it then I dont see why not  this is why we have a By-Law and a Constitution.

but in order for you to have a vote you must be a paid up member

one of the reasons why this forum and this website exist as they act as an extension of the main club - there has been lots of good ideas and suggestions on how to improve the club but in order for it to actually work you guys will need to come to a real meeting and join the club:)

[artw]

here is your 2004-2005 Executive as elected by you in 2004

2004-2005 OVAS Executive - elect

Executive President Jody McManus
Vice-President Ron Barter
Secretary Art Williamson  
Treasurer Jackie Webster  
Past President Alain Decelles  

Chairpersons Membership Sue MacLean  
Program Director Eric Grzela  
Breeder Awards Program Colin DeSouza  
Librarian Lynn Coates
Social Convenor Claude Brault  
Newsletter Eric Grzela  
Auctions Marc Le Blanc
Webmaster Marc Le Blanc

Other Volunteers (not part of the Executive) Web Team David Patte

[dpatte]

Its not quite an executive matter, but it relates to membership.

Several people I have met recently said they weren't sure if they where allowed to use website and message boards because they wheren't yet paid up members.

I think it should be mentioned on the front page of the site that all people (paid ovas members or not) are welcome to sign into the website and participate in all aspects of the website and message board.

As for the club meetings, including the mini-auctions each month, I would say that it is reasonable for people to be allowed to visit the meetings at least twice without being a paid member, to decide if they like it or not. (hint: everyone loves the auctions!) On their third visit they should be asked to buy a membership, since membership is the main way we pay the rent for the room.

For the giant auction in Feb/Mar - anyone should be allowed to participate, as a seller or buyer.

What does the executive think about this?

[dpatte]

In most organizations, past-presidents are given a special status. They are always welcome to executive meetings, and are given equal access to executive info that others on the executive have access to. In effect, Past-Presidents are usually considered active advisors to the current executive. All Past-Presidents are usually lisTed as part of the executive (sort of like a Senate, in fact)

Being a Past President myself, is it possible we could start doing this? It would be worthwhile to keep track of ouR Past Presidents over the years, many of which have exceptional talents in the hobby that might be of use for us in the club.

One other thing - does anyone know what year OVAS was founded, and who our oldest living Past Pres is? How about our longest active member?

[Marc]

Several people I have met recently said they weren't sure if they where allowed to use website and message boards because they wheren't yet paid up members.

I think it should be mentioned on the front page of the site that all people (paid ovas members or not) are welcome to sign into the website and participate in all aspects of the website and message board.

I wasn't aware of this.  I'll add something to the front page.

As for the club meetings, including the mini-auctions each month, I would say that it is reasonable for people to be allowed to visit the meetings at least twice without being a paid member, to decide if they like it or not. (hint: everyone loves the auctions!) On their third visit they should be asked to buy a membership, since membership is the main way we pay the rent for the room.

The OVAS constitution states "Regular meetings shall be open to the public".  Changing this would require an amendment to the constitution (but this can be done).  My opinion is that we should encourage people to join and believe that people who attend meetings regularly should join.  However, I wouldn't want to be the one who takes attendance at every meeting to keep track of non-members.

What does the executive think about this?

I know you know this David but I would like to point out for the benefit of everyone that many of the executive don't read this Bulletin Board regularly, or ever.

This discussion is however useful as those of us who do read it benefit from the ideas and bring them to the executive and regular meetings.

[Sue]

"With the addition of a 50/50 draw at the annual auction in march 2005 (that would benefit from an armkes order in september)"

can you expand upon what a 50/50 draw has to do with an order of cichlids. You lost me there. 50/50 (cash) draw's are done by a fair number of clubs, but I don't think OVAS has run them to raise funds.  

Using club funds to finance orders for fish, is getting into pretty murky waters.   I suspect it would be controversial.  Remember OVAS suports our local fish stores, and is  a "not for profit organization."

Some  of you might want to check out becoming members of CRLCA. They have a buisness of ordering in cichlids for their members. They aren't "not for profit" and pay taxes, and fullfill umteen other regulations which allow them to run their buisness.

By the way great job on getting the club library list and picture links to so many of our books, on our web site!
Grats to Marc, Jackie and whomever else was involved. It must of been a lot of work. Time to buy some new books now!

[Marc]

In most organizations, past-presidents are given a special status. They are always welcome to executive meetings, and are given equal access to executive info that others on the executive have access to. In effect, Past-Presidents are usually considered active advisors to the current executive. All Past-Presidents are usually lisTed as part of the executive (sort of like a Senate, in fact)

Being a Past President myself, is it possible we could start doing this? It would be worthwhile to keep track of ouR Past Presidents over the years, many of which have exceptional talents in the hobby that might be of use for us in the club.

One other thing - does anyone know what year OVAS was founded, and who our oldest living Past Pres is? How about our longest active member?

Hi David,

IMO it is true that many organizations' past-presidents are listed in an "honour roll" however I believe that the "advisory" role is usually the job of the immediate past-president.  Still, this is something I can raise with the executive.  Could you remind at a date close to September 13 or else I'll likely forget.


On a different subject I believe that one of the executive-elect has resigned and we may be searching for someone to fill one of the roles in September.  More news about this once it's been confirmed.

[Marc]

P.S. Note that Alain Decelles who was president last year is listed as part of the executive for 2004-2005 asPast President .

[Sue]

-past presidents. Yes they are an asset and as far as I know welcome advisors to the executive.  I could make a list of some of them from old membership lists, but couldn't go farther back than say the last 10(?) years.
-longest active (current?) member: Again I doubt we could figure that out for sure, and there are some that were members as kids and rejoined. Anyone else remember the ovas meetings in the basement of the museum?

[gvv]

Sorry,
I'm far away from executive matters, but I'd like to say, if there is any money left in OVAS, it will be better to spend them on some, maybe public event to increase the interest of public in our hobby.
Let's be reasonable. I will be happy to get fishes for smaller price, but if some money will be spend on the group purchase of armke(or apistos), why people who have no interest in these fishes but, for example, have marine fishes should not ask to pay for their orders. And so on.

Again, sorry to interrupt, but just my thoughts...

[maitre007]

You look at the success of the montreal club to both promote the marine hobby and the freshwater hobby.  It is because they are able to offer a wide variety of fishes at their auctions.  

That is one of the reason why there are aquarium clubs.  To suplement the store selection.  I was able to buy 10 julie reganies for $10 when I can`t even buy one for that price at a pet store.

Right now our auctions are limited to species of fishes that are commonly found at wal-mart.  The other more specialized stores do not offer the selection of cichlids that I am looking.  I drool at the selection offered by armkes.com.

By subsidizing an order to armkes.com, you enable members of the community to have a more diversified stock.  In Canada, we promote the value of diversity.  If we have a greater variety of fishes available for the giant auction in march due to the success of those who partake in the armkes.com, all the members of the community benefit from a better auction.

I do not see how this act would deviate from the non-for-profit nature of the organization.  In fact in would be in correlation with this principle because even with budgetary due dilligence, there is a small surplus in the treasury.  Thus not to be a for profit organization that surplus needs to be spent on an activity that promotes the hobby.

Adding to the diversity of fishes kept among the members of the club achieves that goal.

[Greg]

I may be out of line posting given that I haven't even had the chance to attend my first meeting (due to summer "shut-down") but I have two comments if I may, from an "outside perspective".

Many breeders clubs, such as bird clubs, have executives or longer term members buy a few extra pairs if they are making an order or special trip somewhere.  Something like a few Africans and a few Angel/Discuss which are then included in the auction.  This does not have to cost a lot and provides some excitement at the auction.  

Also, if you have extra funds, more promotion of an event may help the club. As a new member, I can say that the club has very little contact with the outside world. I think that there may be a lot more enthusiasts out there who would enjoy something like the auction and then become members.  

Often there are over two hundred people attend a bird auction in Alfred.  I would assume that there are many more people who have fish in their house than chickens in the backyard...  

Just some thoughs...

Greg

[artw]

well with regards to communication the club has expanded probably twofold since I first joined.
that fact has nothing to do with me joining it is just an observation I've made. this website in itself has helped the club in leaps and bounds and is worth every last cent.
auctions get larger and larger every year just ask Marc.
there is CAOAC who we can use for promotion but honestly we are just a little club in the middle of nowhere, nothing near the massive clubs in Toronto which CAOAC seems centred around.

we have attemped mass advertising in the past.   hopefully with our new executive it will continue.   everything such as this comes at a cost be it man hours or money however.

[Greg]

Please don't take my comments the wrong way, this site is top notch, and I am excited about being a member of the club.  It is a great resource.

The only reason I made the post is because of the requests to subsidize fish orders, which people seem to be talking about.
 
My observations were just that; observations of what other clubs in other domains have done with extra money.

Greg

[ambushman2j]

personally I think it's just a slippery slope, if the club funds this venture, well, 328iguy might feel that his orders from quebec cichlides should be subsidized, and maybe orders from crlca should be subsidized..if you say yes to 1, you would have to say yes to all or it will cause legal conserns perhaps..or at very least fighting

Personally I would also like to see the money be spent on either better books, or club promotion or even club promotional events

just my opinion

[Marx]

im not a member yet, but i don't think subsidizing orders is a clubs responsibility.. if you want to order fish you pay.. not the club.. the club already offers you a DISCOUNT at local shops.. thats good enough.. i can't believe this topic got so many responses.. it is just outragious what some people ask for from groups... im in a marine group an NO they do subsidize anything..

sheesh..

[Nelson]

Time to jump in with my two cents.  

1.  Can anyone tell me of a club that subsidizes purchases made by its members?
2.  Can we really expect a member who doesn't buy mail-order fish to agree to his membership dollars going toward payment of someone elses livestock?  
3.  Does the club executive want to establish a beaurocracy to manage the payment of funds for this purpose?

I believe "NO" is the appropriate response to the above.  
By the way...what's the problem with having a few extra dollars in the bank?  Rainy day??

[ambushman2j]

Diversifying the fish available in ottawa is a noble cause, yes..but I mean when you are the one bringing in this fish which isn't around it's not like your not getting anything in return, I am sure you will end up turning a profit from breeding these fish then selling them off to other members, auctions and even stores..there are very few fish I didn't at least make my money back on initial investment

[gvv]

I am sure you will end up turning a profit from breeding these fish then selling them off to other members, auctions and even stores..

This should be in different thread, but ...
Even if you will be succesfull in breeding, it does not mean that you will have profit. When you are able to cover your expenses, it is already great.

[Evan]

I would also be against funding orders.  Using the money to promote meetings and the library would be my choice.

I do have a membership, I just have not shown up to any of the meetings.

[ambushman2j]

I am sure you will end up turning a profit from breeding these fish then selling them off to other members, auctions and even stores..

This should be in different thread, but ...
Even if you will be succesfull in breeding, it does not mean that you will have profit. When you are able to cover your expenses, it is already great.

If you do it right you can easily make a little extra money breeding fish, but yeah, most people are content with covering expenses..the more people who keep the fish you are breeding the better chance you will cover your expenses quicker and perhaps make a little bit too..and I am not sure why you don't think this has anything to do with this thread, it has everything to do with this thread, this thread is about $$$, if you intend on selling your fish to other people in the club or at auctions your at least trying to make some of your money back if not make a profit, therefore it doesn't seem right for the club to subsidize someone making a profit..  these are all just individual opinions, what actually happens is upto executive commitie, I don't think it's right, these are the reasons I don't think it's right, if other people don't think I am right, then that's their opinion too.

[Sue]

"Many breeders clubs, such as bird clubs, have executives or longer term members buy a few extra pairs if they are making an order or special trip somewhere. Something like a few Africans and a few Angel/Discuss which are then included in the auction. This does not have to cost a lot and provides some excitement at the auction"

I don't agree with ovas subsidizing people's mail orders, as there would be just too many issues, and would not have guarenteed direct benifit to the club.  The idea above by Greg, is a bit diffferent.  I think it would be ok, if on a very small scale, and if timing were such that a club auction was coming up, and the club had a decent chance of breaking even or at worst taking a SMALL loss.

[gvv]

... if you intend on selling your fish to other people in the club or at auctions your at least trying to make some of your money back if not make a profit...

About profit:
Believe me :wink: , if you really want to make profit you should sell not just to the club members, you need to have a lo-o-o-t more customers. And you don't need to have a lot of different fishes :!: , but you should be good with only one!
I don't want to continue this discussion, as if you are to make profit you should become a (re)seller, but not to sell for minimum price your good quality fish to the members of your community.

About on-line orders:
Is it really so necessary to make purchases through the OVAS? In my opinion OVAS site already gave us a great opportunity to get together and spend less money when making group orders.So, it is time to get together and make an order   ...

Regards

[BigDaddy]

I'm not a member yet... but I'd have to say I wouldn't agree with it.

I keep South American cichlids, and mostly dwarfs at that.  That puts me in the good minority when it comes to what people are keeping in the way of freshwater fish (never mind the marine community).

How would I feel if there was an OVAS-supported order from Quebec Cichlides, the CRLCA, and then say Below Water or Apistogramma Idiots?  I'd feel like I was getting the short end of the stick with my interest only being addressed 1 in 3 times, compared to 2 out of 3 for everyone else.

OVAS is, in part, about promoting fish keeping in the area.  I don't really think it is part of OVAS mandate to provide some financial incentives to get people to keep fish, which is essentially what a subsidized group order is.

[ambushman2j]

Well, to me there's several stages..you have losing money on the fish, your expenses of the initial investment and supplies are greater then what you bring in from selling fry.  

You have breaking even, roughly you made back what you put in from fish and supplies.

You have turning a small profit good enough to buy new equiptment but not enough to actually quit your day job to do.
(which is what I do)  all the money I make selling my fry I put back into buying new filters, or tanks...patio stones..heh

and then there's making a big profit, re-selling which you suggested..this is something you need to do on a full time basis, you need alot of tanks, alot of turn around..  this is not what I am trying to do at all, that's not the challenge for me.

[Anubias]

If we wish to inject a little excitement into the auctions, maybe the Club should consider sponsoring a member to go to Singapore to negociate the purchase of some uncommon plants and fish that we don't often see around here.

Regards,

[artw]

hehe.

[maitre007]

Nothing like a good old controversy to promote the club.   And we didn`t even have to spend one dollar to create this cyberspace event.

I think we should take down the name of all those individuals who asserts that ovas would be wiser to spend the funds on the library.  Maybe we will find our numerous missing $100 books at their places.

OVAS does not offer discount at pet stores.  Pet stores offer discount to be associatied with OVAS.

OVAS paid for the gas for the car pools to the montreal auctions.  Not all the members went but people didn`t cry a river like some have over this proposition.

Just look at the discussion board.  Pool ordering is one of the most commonly discussed subject.   So why shouldn`t the club have the foresight and promote what members are trying to accomplish.

Because no other clubs does it is the sorriest excuse that I have ever heard.   That's what innovation is.   I guess if all the other clubs would jump off a bridge then we should too.

Bunch of girlie man as Arnold would say.

I

[maitre007]

snap.  I accidently press quick reply before finishing my diatribe.

I don`t get this well where will it stop if ovas funds an order from armkes.  Well if I had it my way, it wouldn`t.  I think that it would be sound p.r. stunt to do an order every month that would generate buzz for the club.

You can talk all the smack about the discount at pet stores but if the pet stores were so apt to satisfy the needs of the members of ovas, why is there someone trying to pool an order every couple of weeks.

Membership dues barely pays for the rental of the rooms for the meeting.  The biggest source of revenue for the club, the gravy, is the giant auction in march.   I will still push for to pass this resolution because I didn`t not volunteer all day for the past two giant auctions to have people from the pennut gallery play arm chair executive.

Would I receive a direct benefit from the armkes order?  For sure.  However I would still support the motion if it had been proposed for the apistos (which i would not partake) because I do sincerely believed in enriching the diversity of the fish among the members of ovas.

This is not about me saving a few bucks on an order.  This about my vision of where the club should be going.  Accross the america, membership to aquarium clubs have withered away.
With all the discussion board and thus the information available on the internet, a lot of people do not see the necessity of joining an aquarium club.  

Aquarium clubs need to re-invent themselves and positioning itself as a facilitator of mail-order is a good initiative.

[Nelson]

Nothing like a good old controversy to promote the club.   And we didn`t even have to spend one dollar to create this cyberspace event.

I think we should take down the name of all those individuals who asserts that ovas would be wiser to spend the funds on the library.  Maybe we will find our numerous missing $100 books at their places.

OVAS does not offer discount at pet stores.  Pet stores offer discount to be associatied with OVAS.

OVAS paid for the gas for the car pools to the montreal auctions.  Not all the members went but people didn`t cry a river like some have over this proposition.

Just look at the discussion board.  Pool ordering is one of the most commonly discussed subject.   So why shouldn`t the club have the foresight and promote what members are trying to accomplish.

Because no other clubs does it is the sorriest excuse that I have ever heard.   That's what innovation is.   I guess if all the other clubs would jump off a bridge then we should too.

Bunch of girlie man as Arnold would say.

I

...and possibly if it had been public knowledge that OVAS paid for gas you may have been knee deep in that river!!

[maitre007]

It was public knowledge.

And why would we have been knee deep in river.  It is not  a breach of the by-laws nor the constitution?

[Marc]

Bunch of girlie man as Arnold would say.

Careful, people are allowed to have different opinions.  While this one is obviously an attempt at humour one more step in that direction would not be a good thing.

I think we should take down the name of all those individuals who asserts that ovas would be wiser to spend the funds on the library. Maybe we will find our numerous missing $100 books at their places.

Don't insinuate that people want library books because they want to steal them.

I will still push for to pass this resolution because I didn`t not volunteer all day for the past two giant auctions to have people from the pennut gallery play arm chair executive.

Being a volunteer and/or being on the executive does not give you more rights than other members.  Everyone is allowed their opinion.  All you need to do is to convince, in a respectful manner, enough people that this is a good idea.


(Edit:  Changed "non-members" to "other members")

[Marc]

...and possibly if it had been public knowledge that OVAS paid for gas you may have been knee deep in that river!!

This event and the fact that gas expenses for car-poolers would be reimbursed was public knowledge.  The club sponsors a trip to the Montreal auction every year.

(This event was announced at one, and probably two club meetings.)

[Marc]

I think that it would be sound p.r. stunt to do an order every month that would generate buzz for the club.

Done in this way, and if various vendors were used this might be a workable idea, assuming the club can afford it.  It would be important that different kinds of fish and/or plant purchases be made available through this program.

Of course, we would also need someone to run the program.

[Nelson]

...and possibly if it had been public knowledge that OVAS paid for gas you may have been knee deep in that river!!

This event and the fact that gas expenses for car-poolers would be reimbursed was public knowledge.  The club sponsors a trip to the Montreal auction every year.

(This event was announced at one, and probably two club meetings.)

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Marc, I was not aware. As my last post on this subject, let me go on record again as being against club subsidies in any form.  Club funds should be dispursed to publicly promote OVAS, promote interest in the hobby and to sustain the organization.  This is to the benefit of ALL members.

[Marc]

Club funds should be dispursed to publicly promote OVAS, promote interest in the hobby and to sustain the organization.  This is to the benefit of ALL members.

I completely agree with the above statement.  However the means for achieving these goals is where we may differ in our opinions.

To promote interest in the hobby, and in OVAS, the club has often organized and/or sponsored activities such as the road trip to Montreal for their giant auction.

I believe club organize/sponsored activities should be of interest to as many people in the club as possible and should be things that all members can participate in.  But there are always members who choose not to participate.

The OVAS presence at the Montreal giant auction is returned by a large presence of Société d'Aquirophilie de Montréal (SAM) members  at our giant auction.  This benefits the club both fiscally and throughdiversification of the fish and plants available to us here in Ottawa.

Other traditional OVAS activities such as the Christmas party and the end-of-season Summer BBQ help keep people interested in OVAS.  Unfortunately many members choose not to attend.  They miss out on a great opportunity to learn about the hobby in a relaxed and informal atmosphere.

As far as promoting OVAS, most forms of advertising are quite costly and beyond our budget.  Posters in fish stores would be useful but most fish stores don't allow them.

We're always open to suggestions for new activities or ways to reach the above goals, and of course we're always looking for volunteers to help us work at achieving them.

[Nelson]

Understood and accepted, thanks Marc

[Marc]

As far as sponsoring mail-order fish and plants purchases I think that the main advantages are the diversification of species available to us and the interest it raises in the hobby.

Personnally I would not support sponsoring a one-time purchase or "on-request" purchases as it doesn't meet the goal of being for all members.

On the other hand sponsoring one purchase a month from different vendors submitted to OVAS  (a different vendor each month) would make a large number of types of fish available to members and may make this type of activity something that can potentially be for all members.   I can imagine the budget for something like this to be no more than some $40 per month that would be used to help pay shipping and handling. However if we found that it was always the same 3 or 4 people participating we would have to discontinue this program.

I really haven't made a final decision on this matter.  If I were asked to vote yes or no on this at an executive meeting I don't know what I'd vote.

[Sue]

"Because no other clubs does it is the sorriest excuse that I have ever heard"

maitre, you missed in my earlier post that another 'club' already did have the idea to invent itself as a co-op  buying group. (the CRCLA).  Other buisness made sure that CRCLA found out pretty fast, they would have to become a legit buisness in order to run their imports.  

The OVAS car pool fund to montreal is not to subsidize people buying stuff there, and we have nothing to do with how people arrange to pay for what they buy.  They don't have to buy anything at all.  Its to encourage people to get together and go as a group on a club outing, and to suport a sister club's event.

In a sense the OVAS web forum is already suporting people getting together to pool their orders.  How much they spend, (shiping is part of what things cost), and how they arange to pay the vender, and potential risks, is thier own buisness.

[maitre007]

It was brought to my attention that in my attempt to spice up the discussion I may have gone to far in regards to the library.  

The point that I wanted to make was I do not believe that money spent on the library is well spent because we do not do a good job of tracking the circulation of the books.  Without bad faith, books are not returned.  

I could have been more tactful in asserting that point.  Well ...
I do believe that sometimes you have to shock people to have a good conversation going.  

In keeping in mind that everybody has the right to their opinions ... the assertion that all activities should be for the benefit of ALL members is quite utopic.  

You are going to have activities that interest some members of the communities and others that won`t.   ALL members of OVAS benefit when we attempt to organize as many acitivities as reasonably possible.

In regards to the priviledge that comes with being a member of the Executive ... well ... it does provide me with the opportunity to have my say in the decision process.   And I will vote according to what I believe in regardless if it's the majority or not.

None of the Executive membership nomination was contested at the election in may.  In attempt to recruit more individuals in the committee, we added more positions to which no one submitted their candidature.

If people want to get more input in the decision process then they should get more involved in organizing activities instead of throwing their two cents from the peannut galleries.

It is not my intention to trigger a political discussion however it is like the election.  People talked about a democratic deficit.  What did they do to remedy the situation?  Not vote.

I on the other hand volunteered A LOT of hours in getting my MP elected so that if I have a diatribe about something, I am more likely to have his ear.

[Marc]

The point that I wanted to make was I do not believe that money spent on the library is well spent because we do not do a good job of tracking the circulation of the books.  Without bad faith, books are not returned.

I think the problem here is that we must do a better job of controlling the library.  When Arthur was doing it a number of years ago "losing" books was not an issue.  Since Arthur we have gone through a number of librarians who were well-intentionned but for various reasons were not around long enough to learn how to do the job.  Also, the transfer from one librarian to the other was not done properly either.  These are all things we will have to improve.

[maitre007]

I know that I have said more than my share on this issue­.   I do believe that the issue of paying the shipping for an unspecified shipping order was proposed by our departing president, Alain Decelles.  

Alain identified this a future project that we can further discussed at future meeting.   At that time there was a group of individuals that had lead a failed attempt to pool an order on the discussion board.  I had no interest in that order yet I still thought Alain had proposed an excellent idea.

Once the discussion began about ordering from armkes.com, the little hamster in my head woke up since the reason why humans are on the top of the darwin food chain is because of our ability to think in our self interest.

I have absolutely no inhibition about keeping discus.  Yet if a group of the members submitted a motion for ovas to cover the expense for receiving a shipment from Wattley's, I would partially support it.

Because as Marc pointed out the OVAS budget is not sufficiently big to cover a US$70 expense.  My personal interpretation of OVAS finance however concluded that 30-40 dollars is reasonable.

I sincerely believes that in it is in the best interest of OVAS members that the minority of the members who keep discuss breeds Wattley's f2.

[Marc]

I think it's time to end this particular discussion.  This topic is now locked.