Hamburg Mattenfilter foam from Engineered Foam Products

[johnrt]

Hi all:

I will be placing an order for the Hamburg Mattenfilter foam from Engineered Foam Products Canada on Tuesday. The estimate they supplied is without shipping, sigh, so I will call them back Monday and see if I can get some kind of idea of the full cost. My best guess, based on a recent order of bulky stuff from elsewhere is between $6 and $10 per square foot, specifically:
T15M (15 ppi, everybody uses) 1.5" thick, $6.50 / square foot
A30   (30 ppi, good for fry) 1.5" thick, $6.00 / square foot
45 ppi (good for small fry, but will clog quickly, weeks or months) 1.5" thick, $10 / square foot.
I did not get a price on 10 ppi, that might be useful in an outdoor pond filter, but I would expect it to be in the same ballpark.

Thicker sheets will be proportionally more expensive, but they custom cut each sheet to thickness, so same 'mounting' cost. Sheets thicker than 4" ship flat, not rolled, so are very expensive!

I plan to get a sheet for each size ordered and will sell by the square foot estimated above. I have uses for the surplus. I will talk with them on Monday and if my estimates of wildly off, I will repost corrections. Participants can view the paperwork.

PM me directly.  John T   =   johnrt


PS. I leave it to somebody else to arrange the build party.  Thank you.
PPS I will copy this post to Group Orders  << see, I did!

[bitterman]

I might take a full sheet of 1.5" 20 ppi but I want to know shipping before I commit. I assume you will want $ upfront?

Regards,
  Bruce

[johnrt]

Assume $6 per square foot, delivered and I will post corrections before I order. For people doing one or two tanks, I was just going to cut the amount they needed at pickup or at the build party and charge by the usage. A full sheet. . ., well cash in advance would be nicer. We can work that out. You might want to look at the 45 ppi also for fry. 45 ppi would probably hold back brine shrimp so that you do not loose them to the filter. We can talk more when I have better data and before I order.  John T

I might take a full sheet of 1.5" 30 ppi but I want to know shipping before I commit. I assume you will want $ upfront?

Regards,
  Bruce
[/quote]

[FishBuddy]

johnrt,

Thanks for doing the order for us.  I have a few questions:

1)  How many square feet is a full sheet?
2)  Would the company cut any sizes for us?  ie: if I want a sheet of 12x20, would they cut this for us?

Thanks...

[johnrt]

The size of a full sheet depends on the pore size and batch. A batch is made and froths up into a giant 'muffin'. They then cut off the crust to make an enormous block , that they still call a muffin, that they slice sheets off according to customer needs. The current muffins are:
     T15M, 15 ppi Blue,       48" x 118"   =  ~ 40 square feet     ~   $6.50  square foot
     A30 ppi Charcoal          52" x 72"    =  ~ 26 square feet      ~   $6.00 square foot
     45 ppi   Charcoal          52" x 72"    =  ~ 26 square feet      ~ $10.00 square foot

Costing involves a mounting fee for each muffin plus a setup fee for each thickness plus the materials cost. On top of that, there is a shipping cost and tax.

My plan is to purchase full sheets of whatever people want. Calculate the cost, per square foot, including the shipping and tax divided by total square feet for each type of foam. We will then cut pieces off the sheets according to people's need which will be charged by the square foot. I have use for all the surplus, except very small remnants, so everybody will pay a bit more for wastage or it may not be worth the effort. Participants can inspect the paperwork and maths. It will be fair and as economical as possible.

So if you need a 29 x 14" piece, that would be 266 square inches / 144 = 1.9 square feet, so you might pay for 2 square feet total or about $1 extra in wastage. Good?

John T



johnrt,

Thanks for doing the order for us.  I have a few questions:

1)  How many square feet is a full sheet?
2)  Would the company cut any sizes for us?  ie: if I want a sheet of 12x20, would they cut this for us?

Thanks...

[bitterman]

I might take a full sheet of 1.5" 20 ppi but I want to know shipping before I commit. I assume you will want $ upfront?

Regards,
  Bruce

So who all wants the 20 ppi? I think I would like a sheet i'm thinking of going 2" as I need the stability for my big tanks.

[ajm1961]

Bruce, where do you see a quote for 20ppi? I only see 15, 30 and 45. Or will the manufacturer custom make it?
I might want a few square feet myself - but I haven't figured the calculations for any tank just yet.

[FishBuddy]

Me too Bruce...  I would like to try out the 20ppi myself (yes, Udo did mentioned about the 20ppi).  ABout stability for your big tank, you could always put an eggcrate behind the huge piece of foam. 

Also, keep in mind what Udo (and others) have said about the HMF; the nitrifying bacteria typically lives within the first 2cm of the foam.

[johnrt]

Please remember how this stuff is made. They take glop and foam it up to a target density (ppi) in the form of an enormous blob, up to 5 foot by 10 foot by who knows how long. They then cut off the rounded bits to make a regular shape 4 - 5 feet on one side, 7 to 10 on another and who knows how long. At that point they measure the actual ppi.

The properties of the foam are dependent on the glop it is made of and the size of the pores. The 'T' type foam is specifically made for aquariums (that "everybody uses" according to them), and currently they have a blue muffin, called T15M, that they are chopping up and it is rated at 15 ppi at this part of the muffin, it may be finer or coarser at a different part of the same muffin.

They have two other types of food grade glop, that I know of, that 'some people use'. The plain 30 and 45 ppi and the seeming different A30 ppi. All are used by aquarium people and all are charcoal gray.

Now I asked for a quote on 10, T15M, 20, 30 and 45 ppi at 1.5" thick. I got back T15M, 30, A30 and 45 ppi prices. I do not know it that was an error or of that is what they have right now. They may have had T20M when Udo purchased, but he also said it did not make much difference. First 2 cm for filtration (2.5 cm for 10 ppi and 1.5 cm for 20 ppi ??), the rest of the thickness is for strength.

As fishbuddy suggested, eggcrate will be stronger than any reasonable thickness of foam.

Having talked to Udo prior to the presentation, I had decided to get 1.5" stock for my use. It is a good size and a double thickness (3") could be made by putting several small blobs of silicone sealer between two sheets and get much of the strength of a thick sheet, but no extra filtration, first 2 - 3 cm only - max!

Once the muffin is mounted, they custom cut thicknesses. If anybody wants a different thickness and wants more than 1/2 the sheet, I'll take the rest.

I am interested in 10 ppi myself, but do not have a price. If they have it I will get a sheet and people can have part of it, but I will not ask for another quote. I do not want to discourage them from dealing with individual hobbiest. Unlike Udo said, I am ordering as an individual, not a company, and they are OK with that, but they do stick with the $250 minimum purchase. Most orders are for a truckload. I am still waiting on the shipping costs, but assume $10 or less per square foot, all in unless I post otherwise.

John T

[Fishnut]

Thanks John.  I appreciate you explaining that!  I'm also interested in the 10 ppi for my pond but if you can't get that...or don't have enough to sell me what I mentioned in the PM, I'll take the 15 ppi.

All I'm waiting for is the shipping cost so I can do my calculations!

[ajm1961]

John, I'll take 4 square feet of 15ppm. 24" x 24", I'll cut it up myself. Once the order is in, let me know where and when to pick up.
Thanks.

[bitterman]

I guess I will go with a sheet of the 1.5" 15 ppi then. I would rather go coarser then too fine as the fish I keep are up to 18" long. Also using the same material as you are ordering will decrease setup fees.

That should provide enough filtration for my tanks as I get to about the 1000 Gallon plus mark once i get power and other tanks up.

Regards,
   Bruce

[bitterman]

I am wondering what the status of this group order is?

thanks,
   Bruce

[johnrt]

Late breaking news: At about 3:00 pm today (!!) I finally got a complete invoice, with shipping, Faxed back the approval and then got the fax of the Visa to sign and faxed it back.

We will be getting:
1 sheet of 10 ppi
7 sheets of 20 ppi - yes, they ran out of the T15M in the time it took them to dither around with paperwork which started the whole thing from scratch. . .
and
1 sheet of 30 ppi

The result is that the 20 ppi is a bit more expensive than T15M was going to be, but the total shipping was less, so I am confident the per foot cost will be the same or less. I could not bring myself to ask how long it would take to get here. Hopefully I will get some tracking information.

I swear these people are polite and nice, but act like they are guarding the foam rather than selling it. Gak.

John T

[FishBuddy]

Thanks for doing the order for us johnrt... I have no problem taking the 20PPI.  Actually, isn't this is what Udo recommended in the first place?  If there are leftovers, I might take a bit of the 30PPI for the fry/quarantine tank...

[Brent Shaver]

Thank you very much for doing the leg work, ordering and investing the time.  Once you get everything sorted out just let me know the price and like mentioned 20 is ok with me as well.

Thanks again John

[washefuzzy]

Thanks John. I'm happy with the 20 also.

[bitterman]

Great! I like the 20 ppi over the 15ppi anyways. Thanks for taking the time to do this order! I can shoot you some $$ anytime as this must be a bunch to order everything! Let me know a ballpark and I can arrange to drop off the $$ and pay the remaining when picking up the foam

Thanks,
   Bruce

[ajm1961]

Thanks John - let us know how you want to proceed.
I might actually get more than the 4 square feet of the 20 ppm, if there's enough to go around.
Cheers!

[johnrt]

Yesterday "I could not bring myself to ask how long it would take to get here. Hopefully I will get some tracking information."

Well the foam arrived today. Lots of foam. About 250 sq ft of it.

The 10 ppi was expensive: $6.35 per sq ft before taxis and shipping.
the 20 ppi was 4.43 per sq ft and
the 30 ppi was 3.93 per square foot.

Shipping adds 0.90 sq ft so I was under the estimate for all except the 10, which I did not get an advanced price.

So if I correctly understood everybodies' needs, the list follows. If I am wrong or your needs changed somewhat, that will be OK too. There is plenty and I well use all the surpluse.

bitterman
  I guess I will go with a sheet of the 1.5" 15 ppi then.
1 sheet 20 ppi: 115 + 23.4 = 138.40

ajm1961
June 7 at 8:50 PM
  I'll take 4 square feet of 15ppm. 24" x 24"
  I guess I will go with a sheet of the 1.5" 15 ppi then.
I got confused as to what you wanted, 4 sq ft or 1 sheet, so whatever you need,
1 sheet 20 ppi: 115 + 23.4 = 138.40 or
4 sq ft 20 ppi = 5.33 x 4 = 21.32

Fishnut
  I was thinking I'll need 3 pieces that are 2 feet square (6 sq ft, 10 ppi)
  I'm also interested in the 10 ppi for my pond but if you can't get that...
  or don't have enough to sell me what I mentioned in the PM, I'll take the 15 ppi.
6 sq ft 10 ppi 7.25 * 6 = 43.50

Brent Shaver
  So I am thinking 3 sq ft will be more then enough for me and possibly
  (T15M (15 ppi, everybody uses) 1.5" thick, $6.50 / square foot)
3 sq ft 20 ppi = 5.33 x 3 = 16.00

fischkopp
  1/2 sheet 1.5" T15M
13 sq ft 20 ppi= 5.33 x 13 = 69.25

washefuzzy
June 7 at 12:38 pm
  2.25 sq ft T15M
2.25 sq ft 20 ppi = 5.33 x 2.25 = 12.00

markw
  I sheet, 1.5" T15M
1 sheet 20 ppi: 115 + 23.4 = 138.40

==

I recall that somebody suggested a build session. Choose a time and place. People can also arrange a quicker pickup if they need to.

(613) 820-7259

John T

[washefuzzy]

Maybe we can pick a Saturday either the 10th or 17th of July. We just need someone to offer their basement to do the a build session.