Refugium for a Nano

[NanoSF]

I have an Aquapod 24 and a fairly small space to work with. However, I have really been wanting to have a few things added to the tank. I want to reverse light some cheato (keep PH swings in check). I want to run a skimmer in water to limit noise. I also wouldn't mind some more water volume. Plus I would want to add some flow to that extra water volume so I don't have to add more flow to the tank.

Basically I am getting tired of the amount of water changes I need to do to keep this thing happy. I don't want to get into the possible disasters of a siphon overflow to an under cabinet sump. I also don't want to take on drilling the tank. It is scary enough doing this empty. No way I am doing this full. Also, no way I am emptying the tank and rebuilding my rock and coral structure that I am happy with.

So the idea is this. I want to build an acrylic refugium that sits beside the tank on the same stand, and then build a removable cover for it out of the same wood as the stand (it will have a large vent for air flow). The refugium would be slightly higher than the tank to alow it to simply drain into the topless Aquapod. I will pump water out of the back left chamber of the Aquapod (helping with surface skimming). I will put a sand bed and some live rock in the bottom. I will add two Hydor Nano pumps for flow. I will light it with 20 Watts of LEDs I have. I will add the cheato, and sit a HOB Prizm (modified) skimmer in the water. I will build a bubble trap box that sits just before the return to the tank. This should be about 8 extra gallons of water.

Basically my concerns are this. Can the Prizm sit in the water? I mean all pumps are sealed, but are HOB skimmer pumps likely to allow water to leak in over time? I want it in the water to reduce noise, and I have no space behind the tank. I would buy something else that works better, but any sump skimmer would be way overkill for a 24 gallon tank. I also have the prizm kicking around and even though they aren't great I think it will do. I did modify it, and it seems to work better like this. I just added some hight to the chamber the scum bubbles travel up. This allows me to turn it up without creating very watery overflow scum. It does add micro bubble to the tank hence the need for a bubble trap.

My only other concerns are things I may not have thought of. I did think of power outages and possible disasters. The only potential flood problem I see is the pump siphoning back into the display tank when the power goes out. This won't do much though because the water level is only going to be slightly higher than the tank water. I will still put a hole in the line to break the siphon.

Any other thoughts of potential problems would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Sean

[NanoSF]

I guess I shouldn't be so long winded if I expect a reply =)

[Saltcreep]

I have used two different sizes of Prizm skimmers. They do have their faults, but like you said, for a small tank it should work fine. They are marketed as primarily a HOB unit, but according to the documentation that comes with it, and the mfg's online documentation, the pump is fully submersible and therefore the unit is also suitable for in-sump installations. They are a bit noisy, but I think Red Sea upgraded the impeller from the original 12-blade model some time ago and they are supposed to be more efficient and quieter. The thing that ticked me off most about this skimmer is the smoked plastic construction. It's near impossible to see what's going on inside which makes it very hard to adjust the unit to minimize micro-bubbles.

HTH, and as I'm sure you've noticed, you're not the only verbose one around here. 

[Darth]

why would you want to add flow elsewhere besides the tank, not sure what you hope to accomplish there, as far as wanting to do less water changes. Skimmers will remove certain things and help but doing less water changes is not a good idea. Picture yourself living in a bathroom, and not cleaning it, and to avoid it you put an exhaust fan in, yes you get rid of some of the unpleasantries but you are still living in filth JMO on water changes though, also you have to dose at that point because your tank will need supplement minerals and what not since it won't be getting them from water changes. You have a 24 gal tank, how much water are you changing that it is becoming a hassle? I mean 10% is only 2 and half gals of water. Not to sound bad or judgemental, but if changing 2.5 gals a water once a week is too much work then maybe you should reconsider the hobby?? adding more volume is just going to again require larger water changes. I mean it's your tank do what you wish, but I would not take a shower and put on dirty draws because I don't want to wash them, so instead I get charcoal filters LOL

[NanoSF]

Thanks Saltcreep for the info on the Prizm. Very helpful. I agree with the dark glass. I am always shining a flashlight in there to set it properly. I also wish they added one more baffle in there to help with the micro bubbles. It really needs to be turned down to limit the bubbles. Hence my attempted upgrades.

Darth, I am not really sure why such a negative tone. I am just asking for advice on certain aspect not criticism for my choices. Fine if you disagree and have advice, but do it respectfully. I know what I am doing and why I am doing it. I was long winded enough just explaining my design. I didn't think I needed to explain why. Why do people put auto top offs? Why do people use dosers? Why do people use any helpful tool to limit their work? I am not sure why you have to suggest I get out of the hobby because I want to do less water changes. But to humor you even though I don't think I should have to here is my reasons.

1.   I do more water changes than I should because I love a lot of the corals that require a lot of feeding (Sun corals, Dendros, ect.) I know I have too much nutrients in the tank so I over water change. I want to get back to normal water change levels, not be lazy.
2.   As for flow. I am happy with my flow as far as coral movement and coverage of the tank goes, but my PH seems to be telling me that I could use more flow. So I thought I could add the flow to the refugium.

You know, I just created an account so it may seem like I am new to this but I am not. I just don't understand why the first and only thing you do is criticize. If you had some suggestions then fine, but you just decided to make comparisons to living in a filthy bathroom, wearing dirty underwear and suggestions of being too lazy for the hobby. How about you save it next time if you don't have anything useful to say.

[Darth]

sorry if you took offense but nothing I said was untrue. If my analogy offended you than again nothing I can do about it, my suggestion was you have a 24 gal tank and 2 gals a week for a bit over 10% was not so bad, you never specified the water you were changing how much how often,as far as me calling you lazy, never happened, you yourself said you were tired of doing all those water changes, my negativity never suggested you were new to the hobby,as far as suggesting you get out of the hobby I reiterate if chaning 2.5 gals of water a week is too much then yes you obviously don't have time so again going on not knowing what your cleaning schedule is one can only assume, if this is not you then it would not apply, perhaps you are chaning every day I do not know, you asked for suggestions, I gave mine, my suggestion was the things you are doing are not going to prolong water changes. especially if you have a lot of corals as they will use all the nutrients in the tank in a much faster manner, where you would either have to dose or do more water changes. My reference to the bathroom was just that, the waste is still going to be in the tank. So perhaps you read too much into what I said and took it as a personal attack, when personally I don't know you, and would have no reason to attack. You posted asking for opinions, and I gave mine perhaps maybe you should specify if you disagree with what I am doing then please do not respond. In my OPINION not an attack, what you are doing is great (more volume flow etc) but for the wrong reason (to do less water changes)

I made and assumption and aploligize, but in my defense the assumption was based on material givien

[NanoSF]

Well Darth, maybe we got off on the wrong foot. I do see your point as it pertains to the importance of water changes. I am fully aware of the necessity. I spent many years only doing water changes, and I have tried to remain diligent in this area.

Yes I said as one part of it I want to cut back on water changes, but I just explained why that is in my last post. I do a lot more than is necessary for most people. I would like to do something to help make it go back to 10% a week.

Yet you still reiterate the same thing. You still claim I should get out of the hobby if I can't handle this, which I think sound like you are calling me too lazy to be in this hobby. If I can't do a 2.5 gallon water change once a week I should get out of the hobby. How does that not suggest I am lazy?

How exactly can you claim this is just a suggestion? People ask for help and opinions, and you tell them to just get out. Now you say this is just a normal suggestion/comment/opinion. Sure doesn't sit that way with me.

I also didn't tell everyone I dose every day in very small amounts, I direct feed, I constantly look for new DIY projects for the tank, I read and learn, I tweak and play like every hobbyist does. I put TONS of time into this hobby, so what if I want to help cut back (to normal amounts) in a few places. I should not be required to tell you all the details just so I don't get criticized. I have no problem with your disagreement, I just though of it as rude in its approach.

That being said, I do appreciate you taking the time to reply again and clarify some things. I don't think I would have taken offense if not for the get out of the hobby suggestion. I think everyone in this fine hobby would get their back up at that comment.

[Darth]

it's not about being lazy at all, it's about having time, would you suggest someone get a dog if their life didnt allow them to walk it everyday, I know water changes are a major pita, and believe me there are times I wish I didnt have to do it, but I have to make the time, because I chose to care for the animals. I am not at all pointing blame and what not, but sometimes it just comes down to time (not being lazy) there are days I am too tired to play with my kids (in this instance you can call it lazy) And in your case you have lots of non-photo corals which demand more time. So I am just suggesting it's a matter of time for the things we love. You mentioned you are not changing anything as you like/love what you have. So again I was not suggestion you are lazy, again I don't know you to make a judgement, what I should have clarified it was maybe more of a time management issue, I see ads everywhere for people selling tanks and live stock, and the pictures make me cringe that it took that long for peope to see they just don't have the time, and unforutunately like other pets fish don't let you know right away they are unhappy (for instance there was an ad on usedottawa that someone posted here about 2 9" oscars in a 29 gal tank, the water was 1/4 evaported and so green and dirty you could barely see the beautiful fish) So I will get off my soapbox LOL I meant no offense to you, but I guess it just touched a nerve. I can see you are trying to balance your livestock in your life and i feel for you because I know how hard it is, even harder for you with corals you have to spot feed 2-3 times a day. So forgive my ignorance and my assumptions, and I will end I applaud you for trying to do the right thing. I just would hate to see another ad for a tank that has been too far gone ( I know this would not be the case here as I get the feeling you would give up long before that happend rather than see your live stock suffer so I will back out humblely)

[NanoSF]

Maybe we are more alike than we both care to admit. I'm the guy at the LFS that tries to talk the guy out of buying fish and the fish tank at the same time. That and many other situations equally as cruel sometimes make me hate the whole fish and coral buying a selling business. I mean 10% of stuff bought probably makes it to it's natural life expectancy.

I was at a LFS that will remain nameless as I was not to happy with the owner. This guy had done the "cycle the tank with a Damsel" garbage for three days and was in buying two sets of paired clowns, and "some of that decoration stuff". Seriously, the guy refereed to coral as "that decoration stuff". I am sure they were all going to their grave. It sucked, and it *annoyed me*.

So don't worry about me. I go to stupid ends just to do whatever I can for my tank. I do have the time for it, and even if I didn't I would find a way to make the time. I just want to make some improvements and yes back to regular amounts of water changes would be nice.

[Bob P]

NanoSF.
I picked up a 40 gal. used setup that has
a small tunze skimmer with it.
Don't know the model # . It has a magnetic through the glass
attatchment like a powerhead and mounts in the sump. Smaller than
a kleenex box and it works great. With the size of your tank,
the cost outlay to experiment with your idea is minimal.
Trial and error is always good IMO. Everyones system
parameters are different. You want to try something?
Go for it, and monitor the results. That way when you upsize
as most do, you will know what works for YOU!
Just take your time. Good luck.
P.S. You won't want powerheads in the fuge.

[NanoSF]

P.S. You won't want powerheads in the fuge.

Thanks Bob P

So far so good. I have been running tests with what I have so far and most of my plans are working out. I know normally a fuge doesn't have power heads but I am not seeing why not. I decided to just use live rock in the bottom and no live sand. I really want the extra flow to make sure my PH doesn't drop. I have some delicate things in the main tank that don't want any more flow. Could you tell me why you think there should be no flow in the fuge? Thanks.

[Bob P]

my fuge is full of caulurpa algae.
A slow flow of water gives it time to
suck up more nasties, kind of like a
freshwater swamp, it's ugly in there.
But my water is super clean.
This works for me, you decide.

[Darth]

the idea sounds better for a "slow fuge" the water is in there longer and would clean better also maybe a phosban reactor would help

[NanoSF]

Ya I did think of a Phosban reactor I might do that actually. I get the idea of a longer time in the sump/fuge, but when in there does the speed at which the water travels affect the absorption? Bob, you seem to be indicating this. My fuge will be tall and narrow due to space limitations. I figured keep the pumps down low with some rock and have the cheato at the top (I heard it likes to roll around a bit so some flow might be good for it). The pump I will use to pump the water in will be small, thus leaving the water in there for longer.

[Bob P]

Flow's not going to kill anything, so try it if you like.
Just I don't find it beneficial myself.
Just the way I see it, the point of a fuge is
to promote algae, all kinds good and bad,
to grow in there instead of display tank.
Seems to work better in slower water.

[NanoSF]

I see what you mean Bob. Maybe I will just put a very small flow in the bottom and add one more power head to the main tank. I am just resistant to doing that because I really like the current flow pattern in the tank and it has taken me a long time to get it just the way I want it. Thanks.

[Bob P]

Then don't change it?
You are going to pump
water to the fuge and overflow it back to the tank right?
If your pump line is too low in the fuge,
back siphon can be disasterous for you.
Just point the pump line to the fuge straight down, just
below waterline to break siphon if pump
is off. It will stir the fuge enough. Or it should.
I'm not sure if flow is connected to p.h. though.
The size of your system makes any fluctuations
in paramters more noticable.

[Darth]

as far as having water longer in the fuge, look at it this way, its like a teabag, the longer you seep it the stronger the tea, so the longer the water is in with the good algae the better it can absorb the excess nutrients, same with the phosban the slower the water goes through the more the phosban can absorb, again this is just an assumption as I do not have a fuge but it makes sense in my head (although a lot of things make sense in my head)

[NanoSF]

Ya Bob I did make note of potential back siphon. I am going to leave it at the very top of the fuge, or put a little hole to break the siphon. I don't want much flow from the main tank to the fuge so I don't think the fore of the feeder pump will even come close to stirring up the bottom of the fuge. That is the reason I thought of the extra small pump at the bottom. I just want to make sure my lack of flow doesn't draw my PH down.

Darth you seem to like the analogies =). To go with your analogy the water will stay in the fuge because the flow is slow to and from the fuge, but the water will be moving around in the fuge. Meaning water stays in there with the good algae but moves around within there more. If you move the tea bag around in the pot it will steep even faster right =)

[Bob P]

Huh ?
No really, your pump to fuge should do it.
But as I mentionrd earlier, trial and error..