ATTENTION: CHANGES TO OVAS WEBSITE AND CLASSIFIEDS

[robt18]

Hello OVASers,

In the near future you will be seeing a few changes to the website and classifieds on our forum. There were many reasons for these changes and the options have been weighed by the executive and the following decisions have been made.

1. Classified ads will only be able to be posted by OVAS club members. Ads will be able to be viewed by anyone, and anyone can message vendors regarding items for sale/free/trade/looking for.

2. The maximum number of active ads at any given time for a single vendor will be 5, and these ads will be active for 30 days. Please group your items to ensure you do not exceed the 5 ad maximum.

3. For the time being, rules regarding the bumping of ads will remain the same as they have been previously. Please review the OVAS forum/classified rules to clarify any issues.

These changes will take effect on September 1, 2012. We appreciate your understanding with the change. If you have any QUESTIONS about the changes, please post them in this thread and our executives/moderators will answer them as soon as possible.

If you wish to purchase an OVAS membership, it can be done here (clicky).

More updates to the website are on the way to make it more representative of the club's activities and help better integrate the forum with OVAS events and programs.

We truly feel this is the best option for OVAS as a club going into the future based on our research of past statistics and we thank you for your cooperation.

Rob
OVAS Vice President

[Feivel]

So much for the for sale section ...... I see it collapsing from lack of itemz not leavong it open to the public.

[Hookup]

Hello OVASers,

In the near future you will be seeing a few changes to the website and classifieds on our forum. There were many reasons for these changes and the options have been weighed by the executive and the following decisions have been made.

1. Classified ads will only be able to be posted by OVAS club members. Ads will be able to be viewed by anyone, and anyone can message vendors regarding items for sale/free/trade/looking for.

2. The maximum number of active ads at any given time for a single vendor will be 5, and these ads will be active for 30 days. Please group your items to ensure you do not exceed the 5 ad maximum.

3. For the time being, rules regarding the bumping of ads will remain the same as they have been previously. Please review the OVAS forum/classified rules to clarify any issues.

These changes will take effect on September 1, 2012. We appreciate your understanding with the change. If you have any QUESTIONS about the changes, please post them in this thread and our executives/moderators will answer them as soon as possible.

If you wish to purchase an OVAS membership, it can be done here (clicky).

More updates to the website are on the way to make it more representative of the club's activities and help better integrate the forum with OVAS events and programs.

We truly feel this is the best option for OVAS as a club going into the future based on our research of past statistics and we thank you for your cooperation.

Rob
OVAS Vice President

Pardon my bluntness but this seems like its stirring the pot that was finally settled out.  I have not seen any issues with the classifieds in months and months, so WHY THE CHANGE?


As a paying member for years now, I'd like to see the research and data that was analyzed.  Please post it.

[bt]

As a paying member for years now, I'd like to see the research and data that was analyzed.  Please post it.

Also as a paying member (though not as long-standing), I second this.

Edit: I'm a firm believer in solid data over intuition when it comes to decision making, but at the moment intuition is all I have to go with and it says this is a bad idea.

[az]

IMO,

maybe...non members can be allowed to do 5 posts/yr in the classified.....general hobbyists really dont need to offload stuff more often than that.

however, those who are selling items grown/bred/fragged regularly, should pay more than just a $20 membership fee.


 

[elk]

Its ok,us non memebers can still contact members to buy their products.
All we have to do is use Kijiji or usedottawa to sell.I have better sales there than on ovas.
The classifieds were locked to ovas members before and it didnt work out then so whats different now.

[exv152]

I personally think this is a poor decision for both members and non members. The only people who will benefit are sponsors.  Perhaps if we knew the reasons or motivations for these changes, it may make it more understandable.

[bergenm]

Just a suggestion - if the exec want to implement these policies then say so at the time of the election so we can make an informed decision when we vote. Don't hang the outgoing president with this... We have tried to do this before (right down to hanging the outgoing pres with being the messenger) and it was so very successful...

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=45647.0

Last time we tried this it cost us our Pres., our VP, a number of long term members, lots of potential new members and wound up with a competing website...

[dpatte]

I will be getting a 2012-2013 membership as soon as i see it being offered by someone, and intended to before I saw this policy change. In the mean time, and as a past president, and as a member off and on over the last 10 years, and as designer of OVAS first interactive website, I totally disagree with this policy change.

Every businessman with a website knows that social networking is the best way to bring new clients to the product. What is the product here? OVAS MEMBERSHIP. The more open socially you make this site, the more members you will get. If you close it down and restrict it, and make it antisocial, you will lose OVAS memberships. The whole point of the site is to share between members and non-members as a way of LEARNING and also as a way of INVITING members to join OVAS, and having a friendly open social network is the best way to do that.

And as a member, I want to see everything that locals may have for sale, whether they are members of OVAS or not.

I suggest you put this to a vote of the membership.

[dpatte]

elk, and jetjumper. Please tell us where you will be posting you ads (tell us offline). We can certainly make a case that sponsors will be losing pageviews to those other sites if we have a list of those sites. And if sponsors lose page views on OVAS because people are now going elsewhere, they will stop being sponsors of OVAS!

And whether people like it or not, most people come to read the classified. When they arrive the will see the sponsors ads. This helps their business. But if people stop coming to read the classifieds, or outsiders are shunned by the club, the membership will collapse again, and the sponsiors will leave anyway.

Don;t forget, when we added a social side to the site years ago - membershio went from 15 to 120 in 3 years. That was with open ads. Do sponsors want a to advertise on an antisocial, collapsing club's website?

[Brine]

     I read the classifieds multiple times a day, every day. I haven't seen any reason to make any changes. Admittedly, I don't read the SW ads as I keep freshwater so there may have been some shenanigans there that I missed.
     I did notice that Charlie aka Errol had posted a few times of late reminding people to read the forum rules. Once here...
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54334.msg305240#msg305240
...and I think he posted once in the shout box as well.
So it seems to me that something was brewing but I know not what.

[Stussi613]

While I can understand people being frustrated by the changes it's a pretty well known fact that there are people that are not members of the club that buy and sell thousands of dollars of equipment and livestock for free on OVAS. Many of them for profit.  They contribute little to the furthering of the club and you can check the local "for sale" sites and see all of the things they are selling there.  On top of all this the sponsors are really the ones paying for the site to be hosted and the associated bandwidth with all of the people who are selling items not putting any money into the club.

I'm just a member of the club, although I have volunteered for a position in the next season, so I'm not basing this on any insight other than what I've seen in the few years of being a member. Anyone that is buying a new tank, some substrate or a filter could easily save the amount of money it costs to join the club in a purchase, or two, so I've never understood why the membership is so low considering the number of people that use the forums and the classifieds on a regular basis.

[Stussi613]

Membership so low.....why ? well most of us have wife, kids, work.....social life !!!! why would I pay for a membership If I can attend ? Has for selling for profit.....if you monitor the price of stuff that is often sold there.....well let me tell you that when selling stuff for 1/2 price you paid for.....this in not profit ! and how about Group orders....like I often do......I'm going to NY this weekend and briging back about 10 orders......in there there is nothing for me and I'm not even charging gas or anything......I'm doing it for free.....because this is what really a community is.....helping others not profit. And sponsors.....well many of them started in their basement.....like Ray, Pat and Michael and have now legit businesses....so if it was not from the classified they would have never started up in this business.......At the long run OVAS will ending up creating 2 class of members......this is segregation my fried.....and segregation = ignorance.

I can assure you that there are many people on OVAS selling frags and shrimp/fry/juvis that are making good money without paying a dime to advertise their items to a directed market of people that actively read the ads. When you do things like pick up group orders without charging gas you're boosting the community...and that is commendable.

[dpatte]

"I can assure you that there are many people on OVAS selling frags and shrimp/fry/juvis that are making good money without paying a dime to advertise their items to a directed market of people that actively read the ads."

So your solution is to alienate them further from the club, and at the same time alienate more club members?

Why are you so upset that they are making money (while saving members money) unless you are representing the sponsors instead of the members of the club. The sponsors didn't elect the executive - the members did!

Any sponsor with any business sense, will know that increasing traffic on the site will increase page views for their ads, not only from club members that already know about them, but also by visitors that come to see the classified!

Are you also expecting that someone leaving the hobby will buy a membership to OVAS just to dump his equipment for half price? It wont happen. He'll advertise elsewhere, tkaing the page views elsewhere.

If you don;t understand social networking and its power of building a website, then you have not noticed technology for the last 10 years.

[elk]

More than half of the present for sale ads on ovas are by non members.

[sas]

Please stay on topic and civil or the thread will be locked.
Thanks.

[robt18]

Here are some reasons why the decision was made.

1. Membership has been extremely low recently. The dip coincided with the time the classifieds were opened. The club needs members and membership dues to sustain financial stability and fund the club's activities.

2. OVAS is a site with a very directed target audience: aquatic hobbyists. The benefit of having your products exposed to this market is very desirable, and many would agree the classified can prove to be quite profitable. OVAS and its members pay for the fees to maintain the website, it is only fair that its members receive benefits as well.

3. Moderation of the classifieds has been an issue, and the issue becomes much greater when the classifieds are open to everyone. Our moderators are all volunteers. We need these volunteers to maintain the site. If the workload is far too heavy for them, the site would go to shambles. This will help make their 'jobs' easier.

4. OVAS club does not equal OVAS website. We are a social group, we have monthly meetings, we have additional events, and we interact. The current executive plans to spend more time and effort on the club's program, which is made easier when there are fewer web issues to handle. We encourage everyone to come out and join us, sell your items at meetings, auctions, etc. and interact with the other members in order to get the most out of your OVAS experience.

In short: Financial, benefit to members, lessen burden on moderation team.

To answer other questions...

People running for the exec can't really express what they want to do since all decisions are made by the entire group. Members do however have the ability to state what they wish to do with the club at the May meeting for voting, and other members can ask them questions. Our exec is all voted in.

Sponsors have generally been in favour of closed classifieds as well, not worrying about page traffic, but rather pleased with less ad clutter.

Use kijiji, use UsedOttawa. We encourage it. The OVAS site is run by the OVAS club which represents its members. In one's membership fees includes the privilege of posting ads with a narrow target audience with minimal clutter.

Hopefully this clears some up.

[mmaisonneuve]

Then since it's a member and sponsor decision how about publishinh the list of Sponsor / Members that have decided to exclude other.....this way other can decide if they want to deal or not with the ones resposible for the exclusion......

This would allow everyone to take enlighted decisions.

Thanks

[elk]

Totally agree!

[Cheebs]

My personal opinion is that classifieds should remain open. It allows for much more variety and opportunities for great deals, and as a person who browses them semi-regularly, I don't find that they are cluttered much at all. Over a week later and the same ads are usually still on the front page. There have been some outstanding "leaving the hobby" deals, but of course there is no incentive for someone leaving the hobby to buy a fish club membership. With less non members visiting the page, it may mean less peopl seeing my ads as well.

I respect the decision, but I don't entirely agree with it.

[Stussi613]

Why are you so upset that they are making money (while saving members money) unless you are representing the sponsors instead of the members of the club. The sponsors didn't elect the executive - the members did!

I'm not upset that they are making money, I just think if you're using the site to generate revenue for your "hobby" business then it shouldn't be hard to pay $20 for a membership that also saves you money at the sponsors. The fact that people can have all the benefits of membership without paying for it goes against the very concept you're trying to espouse by saying the sponsors should be happy that there's more traffic on the site.  Also, it's not as though people selling in the classifieds are selling things cheaper to members than they do on kijiji and UsedOttawa, for the most part. They are posting identical adds and prices on OVAS, but to a very directed audience, for free.

I'm not of the mind that closing the classifieds excludes potential members, more that it stops non-members from recieving all the benefits that members pay for.

To be clear I'm not on the exec at the moment, nor do I speak for them.  I've put my name up for the library chair in order to help my club, but I have no influence on decisions made by the club, nor was I party to this one.

[Peekay]

A membership is $15.  Less than the cost of a bottle of Prime, a madagascar fern,  or 10 neons.

You sell one old AC filter, you've paid for it.

I was a non-member.  I met a member to make a purchase from his ad ($150 in his pocket!)... after the fishroom tour, the long and pleasant enthusiast conversation, and subsequent PMs to offer me free stuff he thought I might want, I was sold on the idea of joining.  

And this idea of "I don't 'use' the club"... my life is nuts too.  I haven't made it to more than one meeting.  But I USE this website.  I USE the volunteers that run it.   I USE the classifieds to buy.  And that is worth the 'drop in the 60Gallon' sum of $15 to me.  

[Darth]

I use the forum here, and it has been stated that ovas is more than just this forum, I am not a member of the club, anymore due to personal reasons, and yes $20 for a membership isnt that much, and lately in my opinion this has become more of a power battle for admins, yes I use the classifieds from time to time, but I also use kijiji usedottawa craigslist as well, and I do not have to pay to list there, those sites are paid by selling advertisements same as the sponsers pay to advertise here. I have also seen sponsers use the other sites as well to sell their wares as well as on facebook. I just don't understand with all these other free sites around why would anyone want to pay to use the classifieds, for members who pay to support the club, which helps fund guest speakers, bbq the auction and what not, thats great, I personally have never attended any of these nor do I intend to. It's just a personal decision I have decided on. That being said I don't see the point in having to pay to sell stuff on here, yes as many others have put it $20 you sell something you make your money back, well on other sites, I can sell it for free, so in that case I am ahead $20, which I can then use to buy what I want from others and sponsers. I have been a member on the forum for  along time, and I enjoy reading about things, and often find myself reading things totally unrealted to the water world such as the buying and selling and renting and moving threads, they were thoroughly enjoyable, but again this is something I can do for free. I just personally feel the direction this "club" is going is sort of for lack of a better phrase extorion pay or you can't sell stuff here. The classifieds bought me here the people made me stay. But as I said there are a million other forums out there that can give the same info I can find on here and I can go there for free. Being a member may have its privelages (none of which I experienced when I was a member) but to me to post in the classifieds is not a privelage worth paying for.

[Stussi613]

I use the forum here, and it has been stated that ovas is more than just this forum, I am not a member of the club, anymore due to personal reasons, and yes $20 for a membership isnt that much, and lately in my opinion this has become more of a power battle for admins, yes I use the classifieds from time to time, but I also use kijiji usedottawa craigslist as well, and I do not have to pay to list there, those sites are paid by selling advertisements same as the sponsers pay to advertise here. I have also seen sponsers use the other sites as well to sell their wares as well as on facebook. I just don't understand with all these other free sites around why would anyone want to pay to use the classifieds, for members who pay to support the club, which helps fund guest speakers, bbq the auction and what not, thats great, I personally have never attended any of these nor do I intend to. It's just a personal decision I have decided on. That being said I don't see the point in having to pay to sell stuff on here, yes as many others have put it $20 you sell something you make your money back, well on other sites, I can sell it for free, so in that case I am ahead $20, which I can then use to buy what I want from others and sponsers. I have been a member on the forum for  along time, and I enjoy reading about things, and often find myself reading things totally unrealted to the water world such as the buying and selling and renting and moving threads, they were thoroughly enjoyable, but again this is something I can do for free. I just personally feel the direction this "club" is going is sort of for lack of a better phrase extorion pay or you can't sell stuff here. The classifieds bought me here the people made me stay. But as I said there are a million other forums out there that can give the same info I can find on here and I can go there for free. Being a member may have its privelages (none of which I experienced when I was a member) but to me to post in the classifieds is not a privelage worth paying for.

My only argument with what you have written is that the selling sites you mentioned are all ad supported, by generic ads. Most people who use the OVAS website would likely not want the site cluttered with ads for various bogus pills and remedies.

[bt]

1. Membership has been extremely low recently. The dip coincided with the time the classifieds were opened. The club needs members and membership dues to sustain financial stability and fund the club's activities.

It may cost the club some members instead.  I'm re-considering renewing.  I probably still will, but this has introduced doubts.  Especially since this seems to be an issue that keeps coming around.

I doubt there are very many people who's dividing line between buying a membership or not is that they didn't need one to post in the classifieds.

2. OVAS is a site with a very directed target audience: aquatic hobbyists. The benefit of having your products exposed to this market is very desirable, and many would agree the classified can prove to be quite profitable. OVAS and its members pay for the fees to maintain the website, it is only fair that its members receive benefits as well.

Absolutely!  But blocking non-members from posting classifieds isn't the way to do it.  Members are buyers too, and this change negatively impacts them.

So I absolutely disagree that this change will benefit members as a whole.  Perhaps some individuals, who now will have less compeititon in the classifieds, will benefit.  The buyers (also members, remember) will suffer from less selection.  And then the buyers will go elsewhere, and the benefits the sellers see from less competition will start to dry up, because there will be fewer buyers.

Limiting the number of the number of classifieds a non-member can post over a given time would be better than blocking them.  Or one at a time.  Or make new classifieds appear to members first, before showing up to non-members a bit letter.

3. Moderation of the classifieds has been an issue, and the issue becomes much greater when the classifieds are open to everyone. Our moderators are all volunteers. We need these volunteers to maintain the site. If the workload is far too heavy for them, the site would go to shambles. This will help make their 'jobs' easier.

While human moderation will always be required, there better solutions than this.  Requiring a certain time and activity commitment before things can be posted by non-members is better than completely stopping them.  Have a short-list of rules on the posting page for accounts of non-members (or everyone, as members have been known to cross the guidelines too), that could help.  About the only thing more damaging than this decision would have been hiding the classifieds completely from non-members, or removing the classifieds completely.

4. OVAS club does not equal OVAS website. We are a social group, we have monthly meetings, we have additional events, and we interact. The current executive plans to spend more time and effort on the club's program, which is made easier when there are fewer web issues to handle. We encourage everyone to come out and join us, sell your items at meetings, auctions, etc. and interact with the other members in order to get the most out of your OVAS experience.

This again?  You're right that club does not equal website.  But there are plenty of club members who consider the website to be their prime use of the club.  Reducing it's usefulness is going to drive those people away - it is not going to encourage them to come out to meetings.  Use a carrot, not a stick.

[exv152]

If memberships are down then it would seem obvious more needs to be done to encourage inclusion rather than exclusion. Limiting the classifieds to one group over another is exclusionary.

[Hookup]

Here are some reasons why the decision was made.

1. Membership has been extremely low recently. The dip coincided with the time the classifieds were opened. The club needs members and membership dues to sustain financial stability and fund the club's activities.

2. OVAS is a site with a very directed target audience: aquatic hobbyists. The benefit of having your products exposed to this market is very desirable, and many would agree the classified can prove to be quite profitable. OVAS and its members pay for the fees to maintain the website, it is only fair that its members receive benefits as well.

3. Moderation of the classifieds has been an issue, and the issue becomes much greater when the classifieds are open to everyone. Our moderators are all volunteers. We need these volunteers to maintain the site. If the workload is far too heavy for them, the site would go to shambles. This will help make their 'jobs' easier.

4. OVAS club does not equal OVAS website. We are a social group, we have monthly meetings, we have additional events, and we interact. The current executive plans to spend more time and effort on the club's program, which is made easier when there are fewer web issues to handle. We encourage everyone to come out and join us, sell your items at meetings, auctions, etc. and interact with the other members in order to get the most out of your OVAS experience.

In short: Financial, benefit to members, lessen burden on moderation team.

To answer other questions...

People running for the exec can't really express what they want to do since all decisions are made by the entire group. Members do however have the ability to state what they wish to do with the club at the May meeting for voting, and other members can ask them questions. Our exec is all voted in.

Sponsors have generally been in favour of closed classifieds as well, not worrying about page traffic, but rather pleased with less ad clutter.

Use kijiji, use UsedOttawa. We encourage it. The OVAS site is run by the OVAS club which represents its members. In one's membership fees includes the privilege of posting ads with a narrow target audience with minimal clutter.

Hopefully this clears some up.

Thanks.  Its about what I expected.  I'm sorry for my wall-of-text response, but you brought out at least a 1/2 dozen points, and several i wanted to comment on and ask for clarification and additional transparency.

CLASSIFIEDS: If taxing the classified ads is the direction, I'm good... I never really cared either way... However, I do care about transparency in decision making, something that is often lacking.

MODERATION: I haven't seen any advertisements asking for help with moderation since the initial call, which was some time ago (12+ months ago? not sure)... how would we know there was help needed if none was asked for? - please address.

BENEFIT TO MEMBERS: I see how this makes it a benefit to becoming a member.  But is it a benefit for existing members?  if so, how?  (and therefore, it's not a reason, its just a sales-pitch to drive more memberships and see financial below)

FINANCIALLY:  How big was this dip?  How big is the issue?  Are we talking 5 less members, a 10% drop or 50 less members, a 200% drop?

SPONSORS: I find the position at odds with the stated direction of the club.  OVAS = Meetings/Events and not the FORUM.  SPONSORS = FORUM only, they are never at Events/Meetings


I know this will leave a bad-taste in some peoples mouths, however I think another interpretation could be that OVAS "the club" offers too little value as a club to sustain itself without the classified ads being a pay-for type service.  It's not able to stay alive, financially, and pay for the non-forum parts of the club without the profit from membership fees related to "targeted classified ads" and sponsor fees ( aka forum only generated money).

Just a thought, as I know that this DID leave a very bad taste in some members/and potential members mouths... Membership might have dipped as it became clear that the "forum only" people were being treated as second-class club-members and that there was no value-add recognized from web/forum only contributions.   I know of a dozen (yes, 12 by name) people that are "forum only" and non-paying because they have been told "The forum is no the club".  They don't want to do events or meetings, so why pay to join the club if the forum is not the club... and they dont.  (affected several missed renewals as well and from what i can see will affect several more this season)


In short, I think you can get at least 1/2 dozen memberships, maybe all 12 or more, simply by finding tangible ways of making the forum an important and meaningful part of the club and that might address the financial problem... (seems to be in-line with several of the more vocal posts in this thread and others)



In interests of keeping it simple, the three questions embedded in the above that I was hoping some one would find the time to address:
1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

[Darth]

just to add some more of my 2 cents, if you are looking for members why not promote the club more, explain where the money goes, besides the forum, yes there are weekly meetings but I have never seen more then once or twice what the meetings are about is just about just club business (boring) or is there other things that go on. Perhaps run workshops for people, such as how to maintain a planted tank, or lighting, or have the club buy a par meter that members can borrow, stuff like this, something positive to make people want to join, closing the classifieds just makes people go pffft I guess I will post this somewhere else. As I said before there is nothing I personally have seen that the club offers besides, this forum the bbq and the auction. In the past there was always something going on it seems such as guest speakers and stuff like that, lately all am I getting is we need members join, but what are we joining again since the forum is not the club what is the club? A library of books that can be loaned out, well I got news for that if you are on this forum there are all the books and info you need out there without having to leave your house, so again maybe I missed it somewhere, but I just personally don't see what the club has to offer besides this forum, especially lately, it seems like its the execs against everyone else, the wardens and the inmates. you want members PROMOTE the club, look at the ovas announcements for the past little bit there is nothing here to promote the club besides asking for people to become execs nothing about what the club is offers or does. Since traffic to this forum seems to be the starting point perhaps there should be more or a welcome, and here is what we do.

[Hookup]

One more question in this open forum;  Can someone from the executive comment on the link below?

Members can click here:
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=48754.0

For Non-Members:  That link is to a poll that was done in Feb 2011 of 73 members where 70% voted the classified should stay open.  There have been no poles or questions asked since that date of the membership in general on this topic that I could find.

[Severum]

2 points

1) I see the only real people that seem to benefit from this new decision will be the sponsors. With less forum users posting ads, the fish community will need to go to the sponsors exclusively to get their goods. That is great for them!

Who gains the most from the forum? Who makes the most profit from the forum? Is it the average user like me, who will post an ad once or twice a year for frags and get 10 sales or the sponsors who are making thousands and thousands of dollars off their posts.

(and here is where I get barred from all LFSs)

Maybe the exec should re-evaluate the sponsor membership fees or at least keep it on an even keel with what members would have to pay to post. If I make $200 selling frags in a year, a $20 membership is 10% of my earning. What percentage are sponsors paying? 10%, 1%, 0.01%?

2) We constantly hear the rhetoric that the club is not the forum. That was probably the case in early 2000 but this is 2012. We've moved leaps and bounds from that time and people like to sit on their couch at home or while taking "breaks"at work and do fish stuff. Not attend meetings.

It seems like its the powerful minority that is hanging onto their dream of the OVAS club all the while stifling the growth of the website. How many people attend meetings? 20, 30, 40? How many people visit only the website? I'd bet its closer to 500. Why should those 500 suffer because a few people are clinging to this idea of a club with in-person meetings.

If we are in such financial problems maybe we should address the least used aspect of OVAS. The Club side. Maybe we should reduce meetings to once every 2 months. Maybe we should look for a more affordable, less central meeting location. Maybe we don't need to have guest speakers come in from out of town and fit their bill (guessing here), etc. I'm sure if this thread was about a reduction in club meetings you'd get far less, if any, backlash.

The dinosaurs are gone. VHS is obsolete. Video stores are out of business. Personal letter mail is almost non-existant. This is natural (technological) selection. Let it happen. Listen to the masses.

Just my thoughts.

[Darth]

We constantly hear the rhetoric that the club is not the forum. That was probably the case in early 2000 but this is 2012. We've moved leaps and bounds from that time and people like to sit on their couch at home or while taking "breaks"at work and do fish stuff. Not attend meetings.

It seems like its the powerful minority that is hanging onto their dream of the OVAS club all the while stifling the growth of the website. How many people attend meetings? 20, 30, 40? How many people visit only the website? I'd bet its closer to 500. Why should those 500 suffer because a few people are clinging to this idea of a club with in-person meetings.

If we are in such financial problems maybe we should address the least used aspect of OVAS. The Club side. Maybe we should reduce meetings to once every 2 months. Maybe we should look for a more affordable, less central meeting location. Maybe we don't need to have guest speakers come in from out of town and fit their bill (guessing here), etc. I'm sure if this thread was about a reduction in club meetings you'd get far less, if any, backlash.

The dinosaurs are gone. VHS is obsolete. Video stores are out of business. Personal letter mail is almost non-existant. This is natural (technological) selection. Let it happen. Listen to the masses.

Just my thoughts.

well said

[dpatte]

When the classifieds were re-opened last year was there any attempt by the club to reach out and inform those that left because of the initial decision to close it? I for one didnt know that it had been reopened, and when I discovered it was reopened (just in the last two weeks), I decided I should get a membership - but then no one could offer me a 2012-13 membershio card.

There is now a competing club in the OV area with over 100 members many of which left when the initial decision to close was decided on. They have open classifieds, and they are growing.

I have said that I will not try to convince anyone here anymore what the purpose of the website and the classified where - I have said it ad naseum - and completely believe in their value for growing income for OVAS and OVAS membership, but I would like to understand how the decision was made, and what other attempts where made to solve the underlying issues which precipitated this decision.

I would also like to know which members of the executive voted to close the classifieds again, and whether there were any members of the executive that voted to keep it open.

[Hookup]

When the classifieds were re-opened last year was there any attempt by the club to reach out and inform those that left because of the initial decision to close it? I for one didnt know that it had been reopened, and when I discovered it was reopened (just in the last two weeks), I decided I should get a membership - but then no one could offer me a 2012-13 membershio card.

There is now a competing club in the OV area with over 100 members many of which left when the initial decision to close was decided on. They have open classifieds, and they are growing.

I have said that I will not try to convince anyone here anymore what the purpose of the website and the classified where - I have said it ad naseum - and completely believe in their value for growing income for OVAS and OVAS membership, but I would like to understand how the decision was made, and what other attempts where made to solve the underlying issues which precipitated this decision.

I would also like to know which members of the executive voted to close the classifieds again, and whether there were any members of the executive that voted to keep it open.

[/b]

Was this the new executive or the old?

[washefuzzy]

For the last four years I've been doing a head count of members showing up for the general meetings. We have had the same amount of people showing up for meetings. The meetings have drawn in 35 to 40 people so I don't know why there is a feeling that we have less people showing up for meetings.

[bettabreeder]

Who is that competing club ?

I would like to know as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jon1985]

I would like to know as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

me too please!

[bt]

I don't know why there is a feeling that we have less people showing up for meetings.

Less than use the website.

[rgauvin]

Other than Aylmer Salties.......Facebook is banned at work it's blocked and monitored......security reasons.

Hopefully another real site / Forum.

Same, I feel your pain

Anyways, as a "non-member" of ovas that uses the forum, I am clearly the type of person these new decisions are targeting. I've never sold anything on the classifieds, but I have bought from them (in all honesty/fairness, I can't remember if it was from OVAS club members or not). That said, in the future, the 1 or 2 times when I might want to sell something aquarium related, someone on ovas might be interested in buying it, but going forward the odds of them seeing my add has decreased, which sucks for me AND for them.

I understand that there is a desire to limit people coming in here and using the forum as a business to make money selling things when an ovas member might be a competing seller but there will be instances where ovas members might be interested in buying things that will now no longer be posted.

Why not look for a middle ground/compromise. Let non members post up 3-4 adds a year, and if they want to make more ads, they can buy them.

It lets non-members sell to members
It generates money off non-members who maybe should be members to help support the club and website
If things are priced right, it could help turn non-members paying for ads INTO members

crazy/stupid idea?

[elk]

If you want to raise membership,lower the cost to 5.00 and lock the whole site to members only.

[Jkelley]

 ;DI'm not a member and I truly appreciate this open forum/classified section.  It's helpful for me to extract information from some of you seasoned veterans of the hobby, and to purchase goods from some of you (member or not). 

As a non member, I don't reap the rewards of being one. ie; discounts at stores, and likely other connections/benefits.

I don't see the perks of modifying the site into a bourgeois boys club. 

[az]

not a sw/fw issue imo, most sw people here used tobe fw people also from here......

I like the idea of 3-5 free ads per year for non members.......I also think people who are doing it to make some money should be paying more than a $20 membership fee.

[bt]

not a sw/fw issue imo, most sw people here used tobe fw people also from here......

It shouldn't be, but a member of the exec just basically called the salties out and threw us under a bus...

I like the idea of 3-5 free ads per year for non members.......

I'd probably go a few more... 6-8 maybe?  But whatever, for the moment the concept is more important than the specific numbers.

I also think people who are doing it to make some money should be paying more than a $20 membership fee.

What about also limiting the regular paying members?  Give them a higher limit than the non-members of course (24/year?), but someone who wants more listings per year can pay for more - either a once per year charge for no limit, or a "bucket" of additional listings (which would be better IMO, but probably significantly more administrative overhead to manage the payments - possibly too much effort to be worth it).

[Fishnut]

Allow non-member posts to what end?  How will this help?

[bt]

Yes I have seen there have been attempts to have special saltwater speakers, and I am sure the turnout was fantastic

The turnout for Ret Talbot was almost all FW people.  I think there were 6-8 salties based on a show of hands that night, which was a little depressing.

I've posted about this before, but the club has tried to do SW stuff.  Not a whole lot, but that's understandable when the SW turnout is so poor on the few SW focused things the club does put on.  They tried for a frag swap at the annual garage sale - cancelled due to lack of interest.  They almost begged and pleaded for more salty stuff at the auction - and got practically nothing.  The aforementioned Ret Talbot talk was fantastic, but had single digit attendance by salties.

It's a nasty loop, unfortunately.  Salties don't show up, which leads to a lack of SW events.  Relative lack of SW events means salties don't show up.

[Darth]

I don't feel I translated anything it was at least to ME plain as day and the fact that posts are being deleted because the execs feel they are not proper, is just censorship and again if we can't speak what we feel, there was no abuse in what I said, nor foul language, why is it that an exec can have an opinion but when it is TRANSALTED into my own words, its wrong I didnt realize there was another way to translate you need your own club, should I have thought oh we need our own club, but yeah there was no other way to take that in my opion, but maybe I should say IN MY OPINION, but perhaps if what I took was misintererted, perhaps in trying to scold someone, you should try to clarify what was meant by that statement as I am not the only one who felt this way

[Darth]

The turnout for Ret Talbot was almost all FW people.  I think there were 6-8 salties based on a show of hands that night, which was a little depressing.

I've posted about this before, but the club has tried to do SW stuff.  Not a whole lot, but that's understandable when the SW turnout is so poor on the few SW focused things the club does put on.  They tried for a frag swap at the annual garage sale - cancelled due to lack of interest.  They almost begged and pleaded for more salty stuff at the auction - and got practically nothing.  The aforementioned Ret Talbot talk was fantastic, but had single digit attendance by salties.

It's a nasty loop, unfortunately.  Salties don't show up, which leads to a lack of SW events.  Relative lack of SW events means salties don't show up.

Yes I agree most of the saltys dont want to attend these events, and it was money not well spent, its sad that the turn out was so poor, and for that I say its our own fault, we shouldnt ask for things, have them done and then no one shows up to show support, bad form all around, but in spite of this I still stand by what I said

[bt]

Related aside:

I'm formally requesting that the moderators be less heavy-handed in this thread than they have been.  I fully understand removing posts with inflammatory language and have no issues with that continuing, but there have been several other posts that have disappeared that have spoken coherently and directly to several of the issues being brought up - namely: exec transparency, value of member feedback, and open dialogue.  Removing those posts is not going to make the issues discussed go away, it is instead going to make them worse.

[bt]

Allow non-member posts to what end?  How will this help?

Assuming you're referring to the classifieds, it will help by showing that the exec are actually willing to listen to feedback from members.  Public response from non-execs to this change has been nearly unanimously negative.  And it's reached the point where the club is losing at least 3 members - just from the people posting in this thread.  And all of the other benefits people have listed in here that have, on the surface, been ignored.

If you weren't referring to the classifieds, please clarify what you were referring to.

[Fishnut]

Assuming you're referring to the classifieds, it will help by showing that the exec are actually willing to listen to feedback from members.  Public response from non-execs to this change has been nearly unanimously negative.  

Although long, there are not that many participants in this thread.  

8 participants are non-members and all 8 don't like the changes
6 are members who do not like the changes
2 are members who DO like the changes
1 is a sponsor

This is not counting execs.

We have many more that 8 non-members and many more than 8 paid members.  It does not qualify (IMO) as "unanimously".  

[bergenm]

Although long, there are not that many participants in this thread.  It does not qualify (IMO) as "unanimously", especially since even fewer are actually members.

There are 1583 registered users on this site, at best maybe 150 of them are OVAS club members.

Out of the 150 club members, 70% (based on the last vote) are in favour of leaving the classifieds open.

That means 45 club members, or less than 3% of all users, support this change.

As long as they try to implement changes that 97% of the users disagree with, we are doomed to this continuous battle.

[Fishnut]

That vote was in Feb. and things have changed significantly since.  You can see that we can not propose everything to the online community when we, as the execs, all want to change something.  Not that many people will participate in the discussion.

[bt]

Yet even then, most of the members in this thread are either against the change or part of the exec.

I count 9 members outside of the execs involved in this decision posting in this thread.  Out of those, we've got 1 for the change, 1 who I think is for the change, and 7 against.  And one more member who was against it, but all of their posts in this thread have been deleted.

This is assuming that everyone other than me is properly flagged as a member or not.

Oh, and one sponsor who initially posted in favour of the change, and then quickly (about 17 minutes) moved to an alternative proposal that rests between the change and the current status-quo.

So yes, it's a relatively small number of members.  But the reaction from that small numbers has still been resoundingly negative.  80% negative!

[bergenm]

That vote was in Feb. and things have changed significantly since.  You can see that we can not propose everything to the online community when we, as the execs, all want to change something.  Not that many people will participate in the discussion.

I would be curious as to what has changed 'significantly'?

Considering this had already been voted on by the members, I think it is reasonable to expect any changes to be discussed prior to implementing them.

There seems to be no issue with people not wanting to discuss it now...

[Fishnut]

Here's the minutes from the meeting about it:

Classified Section Issues

Discussion on what to do with two members, ---------------------, who have repeatedly defied
the bumping and reposting rules.
A motion was put forward to give them both a 14-day "vacation" – all voted in favour.

More discussion followed about the amount of effort involved in policing the classified and
debate on the benefits to the club of retaining such a section.

Based on those discussions, it was proposed that:
  -The classified section will be offered to paid club members ONLY. This is to encourage
people to become members. Rationale discussed:
     -This policy would be consistent with a number of other clubs.
     -Although we expect much "trashing the exec" messages and the like from the "usual
suspects", the group felt it was time to make a stance on the issue.
     -The club has nothing to gain from making these sections free to everyone. There are
other public sites available for selling aquatic items.

  -Forum only members can still view the items for sale and PM the vendor but would not
be allowed to post.

  -The For Free/For Trade section would also be restricted to paid club members. The
rationale for this is that with the removal of privileges to non-members, there is a greater
likelihood of abuse (for example, stating an item is for free, but upon inquiring, people
are told there is a price – this has happened before)

  -The current bumping rules would stay as-is.

  -The limit of ads was increased to 5 active ads within a 30-day period.

  -Everyone voted in favour of the proposal.

  -An announcement is to be made in mid-August, with the new rules to be put into place
on September 1st.

Really, it boils down to two simple things...the use and abuse of the section, the website and therefore club resources has gotten out of control.

We will be making more of en effort to increase the value of being an OVAS member (bang for your buck).  This is one thing on a list of many improvements we want to make and it was the thing that is taking up way too much time to moderate, administer and discuss at exec meetings.  Imagine how much more we can accomplish now that we're not trying to decide how to handle all these website issues!!

[bergenm]

And what part of this qualifies as 'significant changes' - two members having a time-out or a person mis-representing an item as free?

I find it interesting as well, the reference to the 'usual suspects', good to see the exec holds our opinions in such high regards...

[bt]

The classified section will be offered to paid club members ONLY. This is to encourage people to become members.

Currently you're seeing a decrease in membership for it, before the change is actually even being enforced.  I hope for the sake of the club that there actually are people who will pay for a membership to post in the classifieds, but I doubt such a beast exists.

-This policy would be consistent with a number of other clubs.

So?  The current policy is also consistent with a number of other clubs.  And there are other clubs that have polcies that are yet different from either the current policy or the incoming policy we've got.  Some clubs don't have classifieds at all.

Just because someone else does it this way does not inherently mean we should follow suit.

-Although we expect much "trashing the exec" messages and the like from the "usual suspects", the group felt it was time to make a stance on the issue.

This just comes across as "we're doing what we want no matter what people say".  I doubt that's how you intended it, but that's definitely the message I'm getting from it.  It makes me believe that you've already made up your mind, and that you feel anyone against the change is just trying to stir up trouble.

-The club has nothing to gain from making these sections free to everyone. There are other public sites available for selling aquatic items.

The club gains web traffic.  Web traffic converts (yes, at a small percentage) to active people in the community, which in turn converts into members.

And as you say, there are other public sites for this stuff.  What in the world makes you think that anyone who wasn't going to buy a membership anyways will now do so instead of using one of the open alternatives?

-Forum only members can still view the items for sale and PM the vendor but would not be allowed to post.

Helps the minority of club members who sell stuff on the classifieds.

-The For Free/For Trade section would also be restricted to paid club members. The rationale for this is that with the removal of privileges to non-members, there is a greater likelihood of abuse (for example, stating an item is for free, but upon inquiring, people are told there is a price – this has happened before)

Fair.  You have to either close both, or close neither.  Closing only one wouldn't work.

-The current bumping rules would stay as-is.

Fair.

-The limit of ads was increased to 5 active ads within a 30-day period.

Okay, I guess.  Didn't realize this was an issue for any members.

We will be making more of en effort to increase the value of being an OVAS member (bang for your buck).

I, and other members, see it as decreasing the value of being a member.  I don't post in the classifieds - I buy from them.  Reducing the number of sellers is a negative to me as a club member.  A point that has been brought up numerous times, and has yet to be addressed.  There are at least 3 memberships no longer being bought over this change and (more importantly to me) how the exec has responded to the concerns over it.

Making an effort to increase the value of being a member is great - but this is not the way to do it.  This is making the website less useful to almost everyone in the long run, and that will only hurt the club.

[robt18]

A few quick points.

You aren't paying $20 to use the classifieds. It's $20 to be a part of the OVAS club. Club members get to post classifieds.

Exec unanimously voted to close the classifieds.

Sponsors have nothing to do with this.

Re: post about how many forum users there are vs. club members: about 80% of users are inactive/dormant accounts now. They will be purged eventually.

Someone posted something about Ret Talbot as well. I personally want to say how disappointed I was in that meeting. Ret was one of the best quality speakers I have seen in my life, his presentation was phenomenal, his material was excellent, everything was absolutely top-quality. We only had about 25 come out to it. Sorry, a little off topic, and I'm not sure how it fit in before, but I had to say it.

If everyone is this upset about the change, there must be a significant benefit to the ability to post in the classifieds. Maybe it's worthy of being one of many reasons to join the club.

The idea of letting non-members post a few ads a year is good on paper, however policing this is another huge job, which we are trying to avoid.

This has nothing to do AT ALL with fresh water and salt water. I don't care what you put in your glass box. If you're a member, you can sell it on here.

[robt18]

Reopened. Don't make me find a way around the swearing filter.

[bt]

You aren't paying $20 to use the classifieds. It's $20 to be a part of the OVAS club. Club members get to post classifieds.

For people who were members anyways?  You're right.

But if you think you'll sell more memberships due to this change, it effectively is $20 to post in the classifieds for those people that you're expecting will buy memberships.

Exec unanimously voted to close the classifieds.

And now the members (and yes, non-members) are discussing it.  Based on members participating in this thread, it's 8-2 against so far.

A unanimous result from the execs doesn't mean that it should just be accepted as the right course of action.

Edit: I will add that the impression I've gotten from the execs in this thread leads me to believe that there were several viewpoints that were not adequately represented (if at all).  I fully admit that without having been there that I can't say that for certain, but that is the impression that I'm getting.  I'm certainly not saying they were intentionally left out, just that they may have not been thought of by those present and thus not brought up.

Sponsors have nothing to do with this.

Good.

Re: post about how many forum users there are vs. club members: about 80% of users are inactive/dormant accounts now. They will be purged eventually.

Not surprising.  Par for the course for any website with user logins.

Someone posted something about Ret Talbot as well. I personally want to say how disappointed I was in that meeting. Ret was one of the best quality speakers I have seen in my life, his presentation was phenomenal, his material was excellent, everything was absolutely top-quality. We only had about 25 come out to it. Sorry, a little off topic, and I'm not sure how it fit in before, but I had to say it.

That was me, in response to another chain that got deleted.  I agree, though.  I'd go a lot further out of my way than I did to hear him talk again.

If everyone is this upset about the change, there must be a significant benefit to the ability to post in the classifieds. Maybe it's worthy of being one of many reasons to join the club.

I'm upset because it hurts me as a buyer.  And that will hurt me if I'm a member or not.

The idea of letting non-members post a few ads a year is good on paper, however policing this is another huge job, which we are trying to avoid.

Having it in the programming would really cut down on having to police it.  Such systems aren't difficult to put in place.  If there's nobody on the exec with both the time and programming skills to do it, I'm sure (as in 100%) there would have been volunteers .

This has nothing to do AT ALL with fresh water and salt water. I don't care what you put in your glass box. If you're a member, you can sell it on here.

Unfortunately, comments by another exec (since deleted) have indicated otherwise.  I am certainly willing to accept that it was the personal opinion of that exec though, and not the opinion of the execs as a whole.

[dpatte]

When I designed the first OVAS interactive website several years ago, I made a conscious decision to add open classifieds for two reasons:

1) To ensure that members of OVAS had a focused source for first pick of used items coming available for sale in the community.

I think everyone recognizes that this was effective, and allowed members to enhance their hobby in an effective manner using their own vehicle, the OVAS website.


2) To help build the club membership by building relationships to non-members.

I believe is the most important part of why I added free classified, and I have yet to hear anyone address this issue. If non-members post on the site, and OVAS members meet them in person to buy their items, this helps build a relationship between OVAS members and potential new members. The classified are our CLUB-SELLING tool, our community outreach. OVAS members can discuss the advantages of becoming a member to the community at large when they meet non-members in person, what happens at meetings, our get together's bbq, christmas parties, our auctions, our great speakers!

Very few people will walk off the street and drop into a meeting to buy a membership without first meeting a member in person and building some sort of trust relationship with them first outside of the club. The free classified are the TOOL by which relationships are built and new members are acquired. Without free classifieds, this tool is lost, and new membership will suffer.

When free classified where put on the site, the paid membership of the club jumped from 15 to 150 in 3 years, because we were finally going out an meeting in person new non-members, and that relationship-building was essential for club growth in this age of social media.


I will say what I said two years ago when the classified were closed. I am very disappointed. And the main reasons is that some did not understand the TWO REASONS that open classified where important for the growth of the club.


Finally, something I did not consider at the time, was that the exponential growth of the club when open classified were originally added to the website made our site so popular that it finally attracted sponsors to the site due to our high page-hit-count. So, though not planned, this also brought in more income for the club so we could enhance the meetings even more. It was plus all around.

But when open classifieds were dropped, the page hits of locals dropped significantly, and membership dropped at the next membership period 2011-2012.  The low membership you are seeing at this point is still the 2011-2012 membership, and I believe was caused by decisions made in 2010, from which we have yet to recover.

I'm not going to convince the executive of my opinions. Not even going to try. But these are my opinions, and as member, on my club website, I feel free to express them.

[xenon]

If they lock up the classifieds, they are digging their own grave.

/thread.

[Brine]

Discussion on what to do with two members, ---------------------, who have repeatedly defied
the bumping and reposting rules.

All this over TWO members?
I assume, perhaps erroneously, that they have been repeatedly warned if they repeatedly defied the rules.

1. Ban them from the site.
2. Have a cup of tea and some toast.

[robt18]

As much as I enjoy tea and toast, that note was from a separate issue that was discussed before hand.

[Hookup]

Is anyone going to address my questions?

[jon1985]

When the classifieds closed the first time last year I noticed a considerable drop in useful posts in the SW section, I cant speak to the FW section on this.  I assume the main reason for that was less classifieds means less people visiting the site which means less help.

I was drawn to OVAS when I first got into the hobby for the help and resources.  It seems those have been lost in all the curfufles.  I may be crazy but those are my observations.

[Hookup]

I was drawn to OVAS when I first got into the hobby for the help and resources.  It seems those have been lost in all the curfufles.  I may be crazy but those are my observations.

This is very TRUE.  The people that helped me get started are long, long since gone... the ones that were hear learning with me have all moved on... the new batch of members is about to start to leave... The cycle continues...

[Brine]

As much as I enjoy tea and toast, that note was from a separate issue that was discussed before hand.

It is a direct quote from this thread. How is that a separate issue?

[bt]

It is a direct quote from this thread. How is that a separate issue?

He means it was an issue discussed at the meeting prior to discussing closing the classifieds to non-members.  From the sounds of it, it was about two club members.  I mean, why would you close the classifieds to non-members because of two members breaking the rules?

That they were both about the classifieds is either coincidence, or more likely as they were put together in the schedule for the meeting as they dealt with the same area of the club.

[Brine]

He means it was an issue discussed at the meeting prior to discussing closing the classifieds to non-members.  From the sounds of it, it was about two club members.  I mean, why would you close the classifieds to non-members because of two members breaking the rules?

That makes sense. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

[elk]

Im wondering why this overdriven thread hasnt been locked yet?Maybe the executives want to hear our opinions.

[rgauvin]

All this over TWO members?
I assume, perhaps erroneously, that they have been repeatedly warned if they repeatedly defied the rules.

1. Ban them from the site.
2. Have a cup of tea and some toast.

you and your logic should seriously get out of here, there is no place here for logic....

Im wondering why this overdriven thread hasnt been locked yet?Maybe the executives want to hear our opinions.

If this thread wasn't pruned, it'd be twice the size it is currently lol

[Hookup]

Is anyone going to address my questions?

I'm asking this again... I see LOADS of posts by the executive... The CURRENT president posted this thread and ASKED THAT QUESTIONS BE RAISED HERE-IN...

ARE MY QUESTIONS GOING TO BE ANSWERED?

TAKEN FROM PAGE 2
In interests of keeping it simple, the three questions embedded in the above that I was hoping some one would find the time to address:
1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

[Severum]

When I first came to the site, it was by reference, to sell my freshwater fish in the classifieds. I stayed and ended up purchasing several memberships through the years. Were it not for that opportunity of selling my fish locally here, instead of getting peanuts for them at a LFS, I'd never have found this site and would instead be using national or international saltwater forums for my fishy fix. I'm sure many are in the same boat as me. Seems like a shame...

[dpatte]

Feel free to vote here
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54455.msg305834

[brotherluv]

Issue: Lack of funds for OVAS to continue operating the way the execs feel they'd like the club to be run...lack of forum users paying for memberships.

Proposed idea to increase number of paying memberships: lock down forum classifieds to include posts from the paying users exclusively.

Possible outcomes?  Discussed above.

Other ideas to increase OVAS revenue:
1.  monthly 50/50 draws online...payment method? Email transfers or Paypal.
2.  Take some donations from sponsors and offer draws online for them to paying members.
3.  Offer small prizes for POTM contest and a  grand prize to POTY winner...open only to members..anyone can enter the contest only those registered can win the prizes.
4.  Add your idea here...

It's interesting to see a struggling organization use conflict to try to promote more revenue...why not implement positive energy and positive ideas to help solve the problem?

[brotherluv]

Fact: locking down the classifieds didn't work in the past.  Hence re-opening it.
Fact: the club is having financial issues.

Solution?  Implement NEW ideas to solve financial crisis.  If this fails...cut costs aka...lockdown classifieds etc.

[markw]

Sure is a shame to see this uproar all over again. I was a long standing OVAS member, spent several years inthe Exec. and moved away to Calgary last year. This issue is sad in several ways. It seems no other issue brings out such vocal opposition, yet it still gets "spun" into a SW vs. FW issue, Exec. bashing, or people demanding to know the inner workings of the Exec. behind closed doors. It is a thankless job, that never eases, and you can never always keep everyone happy. But the fact is, only a few people ever bother to step up to help run the club, and the job of policing the classifieds has and will always be a tedious job, because there are those that unfortunately spoil it for the rest. Take some of this frustration and hostility and funnel it into some good for the club. There are no motives by this Exec. nor any previous ones to prevent the enjoyment of this great hobby. Instead of demanding answers, take some time to thank the outgoing Exec. and welcome in the new by offering some constructive help, and accept the fact that the classifieds are a very difficult feature of the club. The two clubs here in Calgary don't even allow access to their website until you are a paid member. We should all be really appreciative to have access to such a useful site!

[ajm1961]

The two clubs here in Calgary don't even allow access to their website until you are a paid member. We should all be really appreciative to have access to such a useful site!

Thanks for chiming in Mark, it's appreciated.
You bring up a good point - several other clubs in the US also have a similar policy. And these clubs are thriving. Take the Ohio Cichlid Association - love their annual convention.
Cheers.

[robt18]

1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

1) Yes. We asked several times at meetings.

2) Less clutter and competition in classified ads.

3) We are between 1/3 to 1/2 of the membership level we were at a few years back. We are not in a financial crisis. However, we would like to see more members.

[robt18]

And just so everyone knows, this thread is still around because people can voice their opinions. Everyone is entitled to that. BUT, when people start bashing the executive, etc. they are banned. So if you see people banned there is a reason, and chances are the posts have been deleted. No one is being banned for being unhappy but reasonable.

[charlie]

And just so everyone knows, this thread is still around because people can voice their opinions. Everyone is entitled to that. BUT, when people start bashing the executive, etc. they are banned. So if you see people banned there is a reason, and chances are the posts have been deleted. No one is being banned for being unhappy but reasonable.

+1
and creating a second account will not help your cause.

13. Single Accounts.

Each member is allowed one online account. Registering with multiple accounts is not allowed unless a second account is approved by the moderating team due to exceptional circumstances. Members risk having all accounts closed permanently if they create multiple accounts without prior approval.

1. Flaming.

We adhere to a zero-tolerance policy against ANY personal attacks. Insulting another individuals opinion, name calling, accusations and disrespect towards anyone will result in the suspension or revocation of your account and/or membership. Flaming a moderator/web-master will result in an automatic ban from the forum.

This applies in ALL forums and PMs.

[Hookup]

CHARLIE / ROB18;

Current and Past Presidents.  You are posting in this thread, but missing my questions.  I'm starting to think its personal.  My questions are not malicous, or hurtful.  i'll do my best to answer them based upon what you've posted so far.  We can assume that my derived answers are correct.

TAKEN FROM PAGE 2
1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

No, we never mentioned the problem, nor did we ask for help.  We feel it should have been obvious to everyone as it was something that was a common reoccurring discussion at executive meetings and with all the threads in the classifieds being moderated.  Several people did step-up and offer, but due to personality conflicts we decided against adding them to the moderation team.  The moderation team is overloaded, however we did not ask for help.  This may have been an oversight, but we're good with our decision.

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

There is no benefit to current members.  This is a sales-tool to attract more members and dieter the fly-by-night members just looking for a target-specific classified ad's section.  As a benefit we might get more memberships.  Its a trade off as we know less items will appear on our classifieds, but current members can and will just go elsewhere to find those goods anyhow.

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

We had about 70 paying members prior to this dip.  We are down to about 60 members now.  We spent a tone of money last season on big-names and big events with very poor turn out and financially are suffering greatly from that investment.  An investment that was designed to return the membership to the 100+ not drive it lower.  We need to get back to our roots, and keep the main club (events and bbq's etc) core as that is what is keeping the current 60 or so members paying.


-see it's not hard to answer questions. just got to try.

[robt18]

I quick answered, last post on page 4. Got pulled away at work while typing so they were pretty brief.

[Hookup]

I quick answered, last post on page 4. Got pulled away at work while typing so they were pretty brief.

K cool.. i did miss that post... my bad.  and thanks.

I'd like to know the specifics around membership numbers though.... what was the drop?  where were we and where are we?


I want to again point out that I am not questioning the decision, and I still don't have a strong preference either way... what I am looking for (via questions) is how the decision was made.  I'm not critiquing the club, the executive team, or the decision itself.  But I do feel that as a paying member I have a right to know how this decision was made and to be transparent, the answers there within affect my willingness to be come a member for the 4th or 5th year in a row (whatever it is now)

[charlie]

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

[az]

this is still going on?

execs took a decesion, it could be a very wrong decesion but thats how it is, they were elected by the members to manage ovas, if we dont like it we should vote next year for someone who we think can do it better. until then we can protest but not start a war.

there shouldnt be a thread on this in the first place. it should be in the forum rules and thats that. 

those who think its not run well should try it running next time rather than telling execs to quit, i gurantee you will leave in 6-9 months saying "something come up" "my schedule changed" "new job dont allow time" etc etc
this is my thought as a member.



as a sponsor I think 5 free ads for non member is fair, those who set up frag tanks to sell people stuff on a regular basis, a simple $20 membership is JUST NOT ENOUGH.
 
IMHO

[dpatte]

The timing here is very important.

Since memberships are refreshed in September, there is a lag between decisions and membership numbers for more than a year. If I get a membership in September 2010, then quit in October 2010, you won't see that reflected in your membership count until September 2011-2012 (1-2 years later). As far as I know when the classified where reopened, there was not a concerted effort to bring back those that left when they were closed, and many still don't even know they were reopend, since they have never returned. Your current low numbers in of 2011-12 clearly show the consequences of the decisions of 2010.

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

[dpatte]

Sorry, dissent is the basis of all democracy.

execs took a decesion, it could be a very wrong decesion but thats how it is, they were elected by the members to manage ovas, if we dont like it we should vote next year for someone who we think can do it better. until then we can protest but not start a war.

[robt18]

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

[bergenm]

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

Wow - I see where the concern is coming from...

[Hookup]

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

Thanks Charlie & Rob18.

HOLY CRAP... 150 down to 50 members... that's crazy!


There is an issue we should be rallying towards... at 50 members we are in serious risk of losing everything...

[dpatte]

So as I said two messages below, the consequences of actions taken in 2010 cut the club in half.

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

[Fishnut]

Ok...this is going off track just slightly but there have been several reasons why (I think) membership has declined.  I have heard that the club has been mismanaged and taken advantage of by a few exec members in the past, that execs have been fighting, that members and non members have been fighting, that FW and SW groups have been fighting, that members (including myself...shamefully) have had nasty disagreements with people on the forum and to top it all off, the classified section is getting used and abused.  

This has ALL led to a decline in memberships, not just the last removal of the classified section.  Slowly but surely things are getting put right.  More people are joining the exec who are not afraid to take a big risk and do something bold for short term pain and long term gain...like this classified decision.  Forum rules have been in place long enough that EVERYONE should be able to conduct themselves accordingly so the tolerance for deviation is getting extremely low.  That's not a threat BTW...just a comment on how things are getting better.  It takes an organization a long time to recover from so much awfulness...especially when it returns every time a bold decision is made.

[bitterman]

Thanks Charlie & Rob18.

HOLY CRAP... 150 down to 50 members... that's crazy!


There is an issue we should be rallying towards... at 50 members we are in serious risk of losing everything...

I think some people did join because o the classified section but my hope is that they see the value of being a club member. I have been a member for a very long time and will continue for years to come.....

Here are some of my thoughts about being a member and the good that comes from it!

-Put back to the community and the whole nonprofit vision of OVAS
-Meetings and social interaction
-Free snacks and pizza at meetings (There is a  charge for non club members for pizza nights)
-The Ovas Library access
-Amazing guest speakers (Some very well known!)
-Workshops and DIY Expertise
-Gallery
-%10 off from supporting vendors (If you are buying a lot of stuff at the sponsors this can easily pay for your membership)
-Ability to post stuff for sale in Ovas Club Member only. Currently it is the Non-ish related classified section and as of Sept 1sy will be everything.
-The Ovas BBQ for end of season is free for Ovas Club Members and there family. This alone can pay for your membership if its a family of 4!
-Garage Sales table rentals (First table free for Club Members)
-Ovas Auction % back to ovas is less for members
-Etc... I'm sure we can think of a lot more things lets increase the list and focus on the positive rather than complain about something you can't change.

Moderation of the Classified section is not fun, very time consuming but required especially with some of the garbage and verbal abuse that comes from certain people. I know Ovas tried to be fair and not bring out the ban stick too often. Everyone can make a honest mistake but repeat offenders are frequent...

Bruce

[dpatte]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

[bitterman]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

In theory this sound like a sound idea however in the real world there are a bunch of complexities. For one who is going to code the required software and keep it up to date as the forum software is upgraded each time. Ovas.ca is made up of many components.... a seaming simple idea adds complexity the webmaster might not want to deal with as it is a volunteer position and not a full time job. Implementation,  testing and refining something like this would take much time and manpower. It also ads complexities for the moderators. If someone breaks the rules and posts a new ad with the same items within 30 days (Bumping) should they get a refunded how would this be handled etc etc.

Ovas has never been about making $$$ from the classified section.. it was a benefit for people sell fry and used equipment. In fact it might be having  negative effect on the hobby.... People want everything for free or next to nothing as a result of some of the good deals and the local suppliers suffer as a result.

I'm thank-full the Exec decided to just limit the classified section to Ovas Club Members the alternative could have been to get rid of it completely.

Regards,
   Bruce

[veron]

If you start charging people for posting classifieds, your gaurenteed to loose them. They/me
will just post somewere else like USED OTTAWA ETC..

Selling used equipment is just fine and in fact helps beginners with little money and
others to upgrade. Been like this forever. It also helps keep stores/dealers a little inline
with there pricing as they to can get very gready!! People selling used equipment here
are hobbiests and have paid there dues so to speak. Just leave things alone. Always seems
people want change just for change sake??

[Jeff1192]

Sorry, dissent is the basis of all democracy.

I have to agree with Az on this one. Dissent is the basis of democracy but what always seems to be forgotten in these annual discussions is that our Exec are VOLUNTEERS. They don't get paid, they give their time to the club to improve things. They have to make decisions that are realisitic based on this situation (some of the proposed alternatives are not realistic). This is not a paying full-time job for them.

As Az said in his post if you don't like the decisions that are being made you can join the Exec. I believe there is a position open right now as a matter of fact.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

[Feivel]

I read the first 2 pages flew thrww 3 4 and 5 lol ..... I purchased the membership for a few reasons. One that ot pays for itself with the 10% discount from the stores. 2 i may not have time or know were the meeti.gs are now held bit there are a lot of salt people that do not attend. Find out why and rectify this problem. Ive been to a meeting or two and the last 2 bbqs, wich in turn made the membership worth it, and yes i do agree itis much more freshwater driven. 3 i had lots of questions and there were a lot of good people with good answers. And to me this was well worth the purchase of the membership. Wheni started out the classifieds were locked but i didnt have anything to sell but appreciated the good deals i coupd find on the used equipment.  Being a single hardworking father and trying to start a 75 gallon full out reef tank, is NOT easy or cheap!. Yes ive spent a lot of money on this hobby not all of it at our, sponsors yet i try and visit each one equally. As i talk with the owners i can tell some feel offended that i dont shop strictly with them. Others are thanful fur my businesss and the others guys are just happy that i stopped by weatheri buy something or not.

If by buying the membership can help drive the forum based information may ee that could be a solution. You could give a new member a month or 3 to test out the waters with ovas. Then after expiry they have to pay xxx$ to be a forum only and xxx$ to attend the meetings bbq auction etc.... To me this would be the best option and not closing the for sale section to nonmembers. If there time is expired then the site in general will be closed to them for posting materialz.

[wandmangels]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

10 ads/year=$20 membership which inturn = discounts at most sponsors and all our meetings/events/bbq

[charlie]

The timing here is very important.

Since memberships are refreshed in September, there is a lag between decisions and membership numbers for more than a year. If I get a membership in September 2010, then quit in October 2010, you won't see that reflected in your membership count until September 2011-2012 (1-2 years later). As far as I know when the classified where reopened, there was not a concerted effort to bring back those that left when they were closed, and many still don't even know they were reopend, since they have never returned. Your current low numbers in of 2011-12 clearly show the consequences of the decisions of 2010.

Dave a question for you-Is mebership onl;y bought in Sept?

[dpatte]

Most people buy their memberships in September, since that when it is required, in order to remain a member. Renewals are a large part of membership, or at least that what I saw in the past. (wild guess, 70%)

So those that drop out of a club midyear are still counted by the club as members until the next September. But since they will not renew the next September, it is the next full year season that shows the consequences of those that decided the previous mid-year not to renew. If a person leaves a club midyear, you will not see the membership counts dip until the next renewal season.

So, unlike positive actions of the club which can increase membership counts immediately, negative actions of the club have a lag of up to almost two years in membership counts.

All club actions have some people that like them, and some that don't. When a change is made, if it it turns off the majority of members, you will still see a few people that like it and memberships will continue to grow that season. The next year, those that disliked it will not renew causing a large drop in membership. So if 2011-2012 had a loss of membership from the previous year, it was actions of the club in 2010-11 that caused it.

[bergenm]

Just my opinion, but I think we are arguing different sides of the same coin - I think both the closing of the classifieds in 2010 and the opening of the classifieds in 2011 contributed to this problem, along with several other factors...

[dpatte]

If you opened the classified during the 2011-12 year, it would have little effect to restore the membership immediately, since it would only influence those that became aware of it, many of which never discovered that - since it was hidden in the classified not the forum, and they had already made a consious decision to act elsewere through other websites and clubs. I not sure when it was reopened, and only discovered it a few weeks ago, for example.

I believe the only way to grow the club is to act on the majority wishes of its members, since they are the core and the majority that will renew the next year; and use all tools available to welcome non-members and past members to the site through social networking.

I have no more comments on this. I have been harping since 2010 when the original decision was made.

If you feel you would like to discuss it offline, you have my contact info.

[charlie]

Most people buy their memberships in September, since that when it is required, in order to remain a member. Renewals are a large part of membership, or at least that what I saw in the past. (wild guess, 70%)So those that drop out of a club midyear are still counted by the club as members until the next September. But since they will not renew the next September, it is the next full year season that shows the consequences of those that decided the previous mid-year not to renew. If a person leaves a club midyear, you will not see the membership counts dip until the next renewal season.

So, unlike positive actions of the club which can increase membership counts immediately, negative actions of the club have a lag of up to almost two years in membership counts.

All club actions have some people that like them, and some that don't. When a change is made, if it it turns off the majority of members, you will still see a few people that like it and memberships will continue to grow that season. The next year, those that disliked it will not renew causing a large drop in membership. So if 2011-2012 had a loss of membership from the previous year, it was actions of the club in 2010-11 that caused it.

I can tell you that was not the case & can only assume you are guessing from past history & theory which is understandable due to you hiatus from the hobby, a lot has changed & in my opinion this this change was largely influenced by the tone set by the forum from a few years ago coupled with changes in society, we are trying to get the club streamlined, give us ( the execs. that volunteered) the chance to execute our vision for the club , then crucify us in May 2013 at which time there will be a full report on Membership status, meeting attendance & the financial status along with the state of apathy the "club" have then compared to now, this should reflect the result of our efforts.
At that point everyone is free to nominate & elect a better Exec.
Regards
Errol AKA Charlie
President
2012-2013

[Janny]

This is my first year as an OVAS member and I would never have joined if it wasn't for the positive experiences I had with the classifieds. I have posted some give-aways and bought some, but certainly wouldn't have felt very welcomed if I was barred from placing an ad as a new "face" around here.

We need to reach more people. The community is what will drive memberships up, and the bickering and infighting, selective deleting, etc will drive people away.

I don't want to be involved in the drama... I just want to feel welcome and free to connect with fellow hobbyists at whatever pace or level is comfortable for me. I met some awesome OVAS members and that is what influenced me to join.

Similarly, the bickering could influence me to not renew.

[shaheed]

I'm a new 'non-member' and new to Ottawa as well.  I've lived in various cities and been a part of various marine forums.  I didn't realize this was more of a private club, than a forum.  I'm not sure if there are other ottawa forums (couldn't find any on google) but if there are maybe someone could PM me and I could join.

What I've seen in all the forums' I've been a part of:  free classifieds work..

I understand the reason behind the decisions being made here on OVAS, and I respect them.  I also understand that the new forum that is created will have more people and a larger classifieds section, and will be welcome to all of the sponsors as well.  Win-win situation for all.

Thanks for everything to everyone, I sincerely mean it.  And I don't mean to be rude or ungrateful -- but I think the best solution here is to just create a  new forum.  A free one, that is just like 'all the other ones' and go from there.  People who want more than just a forum can pay for the extra benefits and remain here -- those who just want to post, read and surf through classifieds can go to the new one.  People can do both as well! 

[Feivel]

I dont thi.k creating a free forum will benefit anything. The point is how to drive membership sale so we can benefit from more events and or items for the draws and such. Maybee they could revamp their membership strategies instead. Offer new members a 1 or 3 month all inclusive free membership. Then they can chat and read and post classifieds etc. once the grace period ends they can still read but not post if they enjoyed the forum only charge for 5-10$/year and if you want to participate in the Group events 15$ and with the full membership you get the 10% discount and all the trimmings 20$. Or some sort of system as such. Maybee the value of 5$ to be able to post on our communties forum and classifieds could be low enough to drive some forum only sales and generate a few $ for the needs of ovas. after all some us do profit quite a bit off the forsale section ... It would be nothing for us to show a bit of support for the guys who keep this all running and their events wether you decide to participate or not

My thoughts

[Darth]

You can check there is a free classified section in there. You can find there also people that have left OVAS And the same sponsors too.

Good luck

not for nothing but I feel this is kind of disresect, yes we are all aware there are other forums, and we all have STRONG opinions on what's going on, but like ALL the execs have said if you want to change volunteer, put your name in the exec hat, I don't believe "dissing" the club even in an indirect way as this (perhaps I am wrong with the intent, but the inclination of the "you can find other people that left OVAS" to me speaks volumes. I am not trying to start another debate because lord knows this one went on way to long. There have been others here who have shown interest in other forums, and were kindly asked to be pm'd the info, the point of this discussion was to try and figure out a way to drive ovas memberships, and the reasons behind the change, telling people to go somewhere esle is damaging to the club and not good form IN MY OPINION only. Bottom line no one makes us come to the forum, we come because we like it, and we leave because we don't. I have seen people come and go, and this is more than just an aquatic forum, its a place to meet and and share life.

Suggestions for meetings, why not have an online meeting? set up a chatroom and a time, perhaps more people would rather do that then go to a central meeting place? I know there are times when meeting in person is a necessity, but online chat would be way more cost effective, and may have a better turn out, and save in person meetings for things like that perhaps around the auction times, or twice a year? I don't know just throwing stuff out as it hits me.

[Fishnut]

You can check. there is a free classified section in there. You can find there also people that have left OVAS And the same sponsors too.

Good luck

Prime example of why it was shut down.  Some people can't follow the SIMPLE forum rules!  Statistically, it is the non-members by a landslide.  I'm sorry everyone if you disagree, but it was getting to be a logistical nightmare to keep everyone in line and to keep the classifieds a fair atmosphere for all.

If you're upset about the classifieds being shut down, don't get mad at the exec, get mad at those who ruined it for the rest of us.  They're the ones who have no respect for the VOLUNTEERS and even less respect for the simple, common sense, clearly spelled out rules of conduct on this forum.

Thank you, everyone who has been respectful, and I'm sorry you're loosing something that you had no hand in ruining.

[Cbellehumeur]

I'm a new 'non-member' and new to Ottawa as well.  I've lived in various cities and been a part of various marine forums.  I didn't realize this was more of a private club, than a forum.  I'm not sure if there are other ottawa forums (couldn't find any on google) but if there are maybe someone could PM me and I could join.

What I've seen in all the forums' I've been a part of:  free classifieds work..

I understand the reason behind the decisions being made here on OVAS, and I respect them.  I also understand that the new forum that is created will have more people and a larger classifieds section, and will be welcome to all of the sponsors as well.  Win-win situation for all.

Thanks for everything to everyone, I sincerely mean it.  And I don't mean to be rude or ungrateful -- but I think the best solution here is to just create a  new forum.  A free one, that is just like 'all the other ones' and go from there.  People who want more than just a forum can pay for the extra benefits and remain here -- those who just want to post, read and surf through classifieds can go to the new one.  People can do both as well! 

+1

I'd be up for a new forum with less drama!!!

[dpatte]

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=54455.0

[Feivel]

Online meetings:

When i first started with ovas there was indeed a chat section. Kinda why im here in the first place. I remeber every monday sometimes up to 20 people would meet up and chit chat about their saltwater tanks. I loved it bought my saltwater tank there, my first coral.received advoce and now im sharing and teaching. I spoke with mark callahan (mr.saltwatertank) and a few other experts that would come and share their expertise. When they changed the format the removed this option. We asked why and apparently never did get a good answer. Just because and we will see or were working on it. i thought it was a great tool in communication. To my knowledge it was the only thing the salties had from ovas. I know the meeting are geared more freshwater and may ee the chat was our meeting point. With busy maintenance schedules its all the time we had to chat between water changes lol. I would like to see this option come back. Or at least be considered. It was fun.

[Fishnut]

Good suggestion with the chat.  I remember a few planted tank things going on there as well.  I'm not 100% sure on this (I wasn't on the exec committee when it happened) but I think there was a software issue with it or when we did an update, it wasn't available any more...something like that.

I'll see if I can find out.

Is everyone generally happy with the functionality of the forum?

[Feivel]

Something like that. So far the forum is good to what i have experienced (technicallity wise)

[Cheebs]

I enjoy the forum and everything seems nice and smooth... Me and some others tried to push for separate Tank Build threads and all that extra jazz a while ago, and lo and behold, now we have them No complaints here.

[Feivel]

Another thought. Were do we buy our memberships? It could be a good idea to leave some with the sponsors. Also would be cool to have an ovas sticker on the door of our sponsors as i had not found ovas until quite a while after being on the fresh side of things and wondered why it was never
advertised.

[bitterman]

Another thought. Were do we buy our memberships? It could be a good idea to leave some with the sponsors. Also would be cool to have an ovas sticker on the door of our sponsors as i had not found ovas until quite a while after being on the fresh side of things and wondered why it was never
advertised.

You can purchase memberships at the ovas bbq, online, membership drives and ovas meetings.

If that does not work I might be able to meet you after work some day.

Bruce

Note: Please wait to use the online store until it is updated to support 2012-2013 Memberships it is still selling 2011-2012 memberships as per "Membership purchased now are valid until the end of September 2012." on http://ovas.ca/ovas/about-ovas/membership

[robt18]

Keep your eyes open for membership drive information at some of our sponsors' stores soon

[Greatwhite]

I'm sorry if this has already been mentioned, but there's 6 pages of responses on this thread now - and I'm far too lazy to read all the way through it.

I'd just like to comment on the "lockdown of classifieds"...  People are going to find a way to tell everyone when they have stuff to sell.  If the classifieds are locked down, expect to see a bunch of new posts in the forums saying "I have *this random thing* to sell, PM me" - possibily even including the price.  I don't know if it's a bigger job to moderate the classifieds or the forum itself, but it's really just shifting the work over elsewhere.

The number of posts in the classifieds will also plummet, because lots of the users posting in there are non-members as it is.

Ultimately, "the powers that be" will do what makes most sense for the community...  If locking down the classifieds increases membership, coolbeans.  I think I'm due to renew, and will be doing that very soon - and not to use the classifieds. I find the value of the group knowledge in this forum to be worth the membership fee...  And some day, I'll remember to flash my OVAS card when buying items from sponsors.

[exv152]

Another thought. Were do we buy our memberships? It could be a good idea to leave some with the sponsors. Also would be cool to have an ovas sticker on the door of our sponsors as i had not found ovas until quite a while after being on the fresh side of things and wondered why it was never advertised.

I think those questions are best addressed by your favourite sponsor. Ask the sponsor why ovas memberships are not sold at their store?

[Hookup]

I think the sponsor-sold memberships are not going to happen for the reasons stated before in the thread.  A third party has to hold and manage OVAS club money and membership information.

If I was a retailer, i would not want this.

[Feivel]

I didnt read 6 pages and whaT is it to keep somones name and adress in a book with his 15$ or 20$ whatever was decided upon. Until a moderator can show up every week or two and pick up the info. It wojld promote the sponsors also because hey im here buying a membership and ohhhhh look at that coral/fish .... what!?!?! Only 40$ ill take it !      See what i mean? Just thinking for ways to profit everyone. Not much of a sponsor if they cant be proud to promote us. We help promote them. They dont (or barely) show up for club events. Yeah im sure their bisy with the stores but im busy at my workplace too and i still find the time to visit. Not to mention most are only open 4 days a week. I dont mean to start a new debate or anything. Im just thinking out loud.  We help suport them . I would like to see them suport us. None have an ovas sticker but ovas has a section for the sponsors.

[Hookup]

sure, but in a world where classifieds cannot be open to the pubic due to "people/moderators/issues/etc" I cannot imagine what's going to happen when the first drove of people call in saying, "I got my membership at Bob's House of Fish... Why don't I have access to the forum, or what not... and I lost my card they gave me cause i was buying like 100 things, and my kids were screaming and...

Just saying... seems to me like this is much more monumental than our current issues...

[Feivel]

I guess theres pro and cons on bpth sides of the coin. Bit still could have more visual promotion from pur sponsors. Would the budjet allow for such stickers to be made? I would buy one.

[exv152]

I think the sponsor-sold memberships are not going to happen for the reasons stated before in the thread.  A third party has to hold and manage OVAS club money and membership information.

If I was a retailer, i would not want this.

Not unless the sponsors purchase a set amount of memberships to be sold to others, like a corner store does with OCtranspo tickets. Prebought memberships that can be redeemed online. If you were a retailer in a very specific niche business like aquaria, and you were a shrewd, astute and keen businessman, you'd wanna have a good relationship with organizations that will bring you money, even if you have to sell their memberships, or put a sticker on your store front. Other large cities have such keen sponsors willing to go that extra mile and then some. Maybe the sponsors here don't have enough competition.

[Fishnut]

Please keep ideas coming because they help us in the brain storming process.  

A sticker for a door is not expensive...I don't think.  We just have to be respectful of the wishes of our sponsors.  Every square inch of space in a store is valuable real estate.

[bt]

give us ( the execs. that volunteered) the chance to execute our vision for the club , then crucify us in May 2013 at which time there will be a full report on Membership status, meeting attendance & the financial status along with the state of apathy the "club" have then compared to now, this should reflect the result of our efforts.

A little late replying to this, but I've been away...

You need to take feedback the entire time you're sitting as an exec.  Instead, we're being told to wait for 9 months.

Here's the problem with that: You're asking that of people before membership renewal is due. 

If I'm not happy with the direction the exec is taking the club and feel like my concerns are being brushed off with "wait until the next election", why would I put down $20 for this season? And if I don't put that money down, I won't have a say on it in May. Not a good way to encourage renewals, and will just lead to an echo chamber effect.

[Fishnut]

Feed back, yes.  We're always looking for feed-back.  An abundance of nonconstructive comments and criticism, no.  If you're really unhappy, May election is the time to express this when it makes the biggest difference.

[bt]

Plenty of constructive feedback has been given on this topic.  Yet we mostly have gotten the same response as the non-constructive responses, occasionally a short response that doesn't address what we said or completely ignores the point (see: being told to wait until May, again), or worse - no response at all.

I am really unhappy.  I won't be a member in May due to how this issue has been handled to date (more than the issue itself), so I'm expressing it now.  I shouldn't have to wait until may to "make the biggest difference".  It's insulting and dismissive to be told to do so.

[NjOyRiD]

Good suggestion with the chat.  I remember a few planted tank things going on there as well.  I'm not 100% sure on this (I wasn't on the exec committee when it happened) but I think there was a software issue with it or when we did an update, it wasn't available any more...something like that.

I'll see if I can find out.

Is everyone generally happy with the functionality of the forum?

I started Salty tuesdays
when they asked me if it was usefull and if peopel was going. I said yes and o even had big names coming
they decided to just remove it without telling us why

[Fishnut]

That was before my time.  Please fill me in on what that was.

Also, thanks for reminding me about the chat.  I did find out that there was a glitch with it that the webmaster couldn't figure out how to fix, so it was disabled.  We have a new webmaster so MAYBE she can figure it out when she has time to investigate it.

[charlie]

Guys i honestly think this thread has served it`s purpose & really don`t see any further need to keep it going. We have planned a course for the CLUB, the Club is what all execs volunteer to devote their time away from their jobs, family & social life, these choices were made to better the "CLUB".
so the thread is now closed, thanks for all your input.
Regards Errol/Charlie
President