so..... any thoughts or suggestions?

[Lexx]

I can't get a 75g right at the moment. So I'm thinking of a smaller tank for a male Betta and some shrimp, or a couple female Betta and some shrimp! I'm also hoping to have some live plants!
I know what the requirements for a Betta are. I'm a little ignorant towards the shrimp though!
I'm thinking Red Cherry Shrimp as I believe they are a good beginner Shrimp?
Is there a size per Shrimp equation? Do they do better in groups? What size of tank should I look for? Would a starter kit suffice or would I be better off piecing together a setup?
I would think that the lights in a starter kit would not be the best for plants? And that the filter might not be the best in a kit. Hmmm, starting to think I already know the answer to this question.
I'm open to suggestions on kits or separate pieces or even certain stores that have particular things at better prices? Or if someone can help me with some of these pieces or livestock send me a pm!

Thanks
Morgan

[mm]

Hmmm ... the shrimp could end up being an expensive meal for the bettas ...

[missavgp]

Your betta will eat some of the shrimp. I have a male with my cherry shrimp, but with have so many shrimp he can't make a dent in the numbers. You would need to get enough shrimp to start with that they can get breeding before he gets too aggressive with them. The up side is he will always have a food source.

[Lexx]

In that case would I be better off with a 10g? Or would like a 5g with some sort of cover that the shrimp could hide with?

[mm]

Lots of java moss at the bottom would help by providing some coverage. You can also use some cholla branches (http://www.shrimpfever.com/shop/?s=Cholla) it would double as shelter and a source of food for the shrimp. CJ had some nice rimless tanks at an affordable price. I think a 5 gallon would do.  Wrt lights an ikea desktop lamp (around $15)   with a led 60 watts equivalent bulb (can get that at homedepot) would do the trick. For filtration you could get a small sponge filter on amazon http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Sponge+filter or a small hang-on filter. The betta would appreciate a mini aqueon heater. http://www.petsmart.ca/supplies/heaters/aqueon-mini-aquarium-heater-zid36-16560/cat-36-catid-300076?var_id=36-16560&_t=pfm%3Dsearch

[Lexx]

Thanks for the suggestions! Do you know if any local shops have the cholla? It seems like a waste paying shipping for just one item! Although there are a few other things I might be interested in.

[Lexx]

Well it appears I have found just about everything I need! Thanks again Charlie, for your offer and showing me that beautiful 79g you've created.

I guess I'm just looking for that certain Betta now!

Morgan

[mm]

Good to hear. Please post pictures of the new setup.

[Lexx]

Haha, there might already be some on here? I bought the 5.5g Charlie had for sale.

[mm]

Instant setup! That makes it easy

[Lexx]

Well almost easy! Now I just have to figure out all the test readings and if I should do something about them? How often I should be testing PH/KH/GH/UpperPH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates? Also if I need to cycle it before getting my Betta? There's 20 CRS in it now, and I think some baby snails?

Morgan

[mm]

Morgan, is your mind completely set on getting a betta? Have you considered getting a school of small fish like the chili rasboras http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/custom/images/large/4bb48077c6a5d.jpg or rasbora maculatus http://www.aquabase.org/member/album/pictures/CC7DDDF676747B904AFC74FE4BB3D7B2_full.jpg ? I saw some at Critter Jungle. I think they could coexist more peacefully with the CRS and they like similar water parameters.

[Lexx]

Well, not fully set! I do like the Bettas a lot though! Maybe I should post my water parameters and see where that leaves me?

On start up(yesterday)
KH 12°
GH 304.3
PH 7.8
Ammo 0
Nitrite 0

24hrs later
KH 6°
GH 232.7
PH 7.8
Ammo 0
Nitrite 0

[mm]

What water source are you using? Is it from a well? That waters is too hard to be  Ottawa tap water.

Also, I don't understand how your KH and GH could drop so much in 24 hours. Furthermore, the pH didn't change? Are you sure you are measuring things properly? Those numbers are not making sense to me.

That water would be way too hard to keep CRS.

[Lexx]

It's not well water nor is it Ottawa water. I live in Kemptville, so its Kemptville water. I followed the instructions for all the tests? I see where the confusion is. I used the wrong abbreviation. I meant RCS.

[mm]

Morgan -

Here is another fish suggestion for you:

Pseudomugil furcatus (Forktail Blue Eye)
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pseudomugil-furcatus/

It is a beautiful fish, you could keep a few in a 5 gallon, it would do well in your water parameters, and it likes a well planted tank.They were also available at CJ. I think the Red Cherry Shrimp would also be safer than with a Betta.

Also, for your information here is a citation from the 2013 North Grenville water quality report.
"The North Grenville water supply system consists of 3 separate groundwater wells
located within the urban core (Kemptville). These pump stations are on Alfred Street, Van Buren Street, and Kernahan Street. The water is treated at the well heads with sodium hypochlorite (disinfection) before it enters the distribution system."

Unfortunately, the report does not contain much useful information to help understand the chemistry of your water.

Good luck!

[Lexx]

Maybe I will just hold off and see where everything stabilizes and start looking for something based on those parameters? Thanks for the info and help though! I'll keep posting parameters till they level off.

[lucius]

Haha, there might already be some on here? I bought the 5.5g Charlie had for sale.

Since your tank is only a 5.5g, maybe you can get your water from someone in Ottawa and store it in a Rubbermaid tote with a heater.  You can transport the water with one of those water cooler jugs.

[Lexx]

I'm was just rereading the Ottawa PH topic. And I now wonder if my PH will be OK once it lowers? Should it not lower in 24-48hrs? Also if it does will it be 1.2 like most in Ottawa see, or is it variable? Also if it does drop I could always pick up another small tank or container and pre fill it so the PH has lowered by the time I'm ready to add it? So much to learn, but that's all part of the fun!

[mm]

As I mentioned, it is hard to make sense of your water parameters. Being groundwater it is not surprising that both KH and GH would be that high. But I am having difficulty understanding why those values would drop that much in 24 hours and how come the pH is only 7.8. Are you using a high-range pH test? I find it difficult to believe that with a KH of 6 or 12 you would get a pH of only 7.8 (I would expect it to be in the range 8.0-8.3). Would you mind getting a glass of water from the tap and re-doing the KH, GH and high-range pH tests?

Even if your water is hard that is not a problem. You should just try to find fish that do well under those conditions. There are many small fish suitable for a 5.5. gallon to choose from (the ones I suggested above, guppies, endlers, etc will appreciate the harder water). Your cherries are pretty adaptable so they might also be ok.

[charlie]

Since your tank is only a 5.5g, maybe you can get your water from someone in Ottawa and store it in a Rubbermaid tote with a heater.  You can transport the water with one of those water cooler jugs.

Great idea, especially since he is in Ottawa frequently   

[mm]

Charlie, what is the substrate in the tank? Perhaps that will help me understand how the KH and GH  would drop so much, so fast.

[Lexx]

I'm pretty sure it's Fluval Stratum, but I've been wrong before! Lol
It's small brown and roundish. Plus there is some sand in the front.

[Lexx]

OK testing straight tap water! Stay tuned for results!

[Lexx]

OK so tap water test
KH 13°
GH 340.1
PH is 7.8

[charlie]

I'm pretty sure it's Fluval Stratum, but I've been wrong before! Lol
It's small brown and roundish. Plus there is some sand in the front.

This time you are right , it is stratum

[Lexx]

Yay me! Lol

[mm]

Ok, so I now understand the drop in KH and GH. It is due to the fluval stratum. Given its chemical properties, fluval stratum will tend to lower your pH to a neutral/slightly acidic level by decreasing KH (and GH). However, your water is so hard that it will eventually exhaust the ability of the substrate to do so.

The pH level is still puzzling to me. What is the brand of your test kit? Is it a high-range pH test?

I agree with Lucius and Charlie that you are probably better off trying to get a different source of water - get water from Ottawa or buy distilled water to mix with a bit of your tap water. It would be better for the shrimp, the plants, and the Betta (if you get it).

Good luck!

[Lexx]

I have the API freshwater master test kit! So it has PH and high range PH. Which would make more sense? Finding someone to get water from and transporting it back or getting the distilled water and cutting my tap water? I got a Walmart less then 2min drive, and its a small tank?

[mm]

Since I would expect your pH to be around 8, you should try the high range pH. Try it and let us know what you get.

The decision regarding the water source is up to you. After filling it the first time you probably would only need to change one gallon or so every other week. Getting it from someone in Ottawa would mean that you would not have to worry about mixing the waters. There is the gas money but probably you could get the water for free. If you decide to buy distilled water, 18L (4.75 gallons) costs around $5 in Loblaws (plus a $10 deposit for the container).You would need something like 1 part tap water to 4 parts distilled water. That should give you a KH around 2-3 degrees and a GH around 68ppm (4 degrees). The fluval substrate would decrease these further.You would probably end up with a pH around neutral.

[lucius]

Which would make more sense? Finding someone to get water from and transporting it back or getting the distilled water and cutting my tap water? I got a Walmart less then 2min drive, and its a small tank?

You might as well start off with buying your water for now and then see if you can get a free source when the weather gets warmer.  You can also collect rainwater in the warmer months.

[Lexx]

That is the high range test results!
As for the water I'll have to check the price to measure which way I'm going to go.

[mm]

Are you injecting CO2?

[Lexx]

No I am not, nor do I plan on it. For now anyways.

48hr readings
KH 4°
GH 179
PH 7.8

[Lexx]

How do you all clean your test tubes? As for using the High range PH test, i have been. Since the regular PH test was at the max when i tested i went a head and tested the high range. So the 7.8PH is the high range test results! I'm still a bit confused as to why it hasn't dropped at all yet? Maybe tonights test will bring different results?

[mm]

You can just rinse the test tube and the cap in running tap water. Keep us informed on those results.

[Lexx]

Alright tonights results are
KH 2
GH 179
PH 7.8

[mm]

At a KH of 2 (assuming that all the buffering is coming from carbonates) i would expect your pH to be now around 7.4-7.5. You should now try the lower end ph test kit.

It could be that your water has high level os phosphates or other buffer (not uncommon in groundwater) and that is what is breaking the KH-pH (and CO2) relationship. That could explain why your pH seems "stuck" at 7.8.

[Lexx]

7.4 is the low end of the high range PH test. 7.6 is the top end of the regular PH test. Its seems odd that they overlap.
Are there tests I can get for phosphates or these other possible buffers?

[Lexx]

OK so found phosphate tests on BA's website. What about any other things I should test for? Or should I stop worrying so much and just get on with it?

[exv152]

Chances are your pH is dropping along with your KH due to the ion exchange property of the stratum, it will absorb the carbonates and other elements that affect pH. The degree to which it will go down really depends on how used the stratum is, if it's been used for quite some time it will have absorbed its fair share already and may or may not lower pH anymore. The API test kits (regular & high range) are not the most accurate, so I wouldn't put too much weight on the results. I find the regular kit good for anything in the 6 range, below or above that it becomes very subjective. The same is true with the high range kit, it's more accurate between 7.8-8.4 or so, but below and above that it's very inaccurate. That said, pH is really not a big deal. Your shrimp will adapt, especially RCS. Store bought distilled is a great idea, and I would add it to the evaporated water, and slowly add more as you do very small water changes.

Just my two cents.

[mm]

OK so found phosphate tests on BA's website. What about any other things I should test for? Or should I stop worrying so much and just get on with it?

I would stop worrying so much and move on. Just start cutting your tap water with distilled water or using Ottawa tap water.

[Lexx]

You guys are great! I appreciate all the help you all have given.
Should I pick up a phosphate test?
mm thanks for the fish suggestions! I wasn't sure about them at first, but I stopped at CJ today. Wow on the Rasbora's! I will more then likely be getting some of the Maculatas. Just for the colour contrast, as opposed to more red in the tank.

[mm]

Should I pick up a phosphate test?

I wouldn't. Later, if you start having severe algae problems you can consider testing for phosphates.

[charlie]

This is what the tank looked like before the plants grew in some.
I only did a 10% water change bi weekly, added some excel & trace  2X a week .