Advice on Pseudotropheus demansoni's

[Nelson]

Was just given 4 X 2.5-3" P. demansoni's, at least that's what I think they are.  What I'm reading indicates that they're very aggressive and difficult to maintain in a Mbuna tank.  Anyone have experience with this beautiful but seemingly very high strung fish?

[artw]

the demasoni's are nice fish (pronounces de-mayson-eye) but they are aggressive.  if you have anything in the tank that looks like them they will kill it in my experience.
if you can get them to breed go for it - they come and go from the pet stores around here and would be nice to see someone in the club breeding them

[Nelson]

Thanks Art.  I was given the four by Jeremy (a member) who has had exceptional luck breeding them.  He has a male that is one of the most brilliatly colored fish I've seen.

[ambushman2j]

as soon as someone buys up my 4"+ salousi G1 adults I will likely try breeding them heh

[luvfishies]

Thanks Art.  I was given the four by Jeremy (a member) who has had exceptional luck breeding them.  He has a male that is one of the most brilliatly colored fish I've seen.

Be sure the bars are nice and even, and fully formed. There's been a lot of inbreeding of these lovely, but nasty, fish, and the quality is starting to deteriorate.

[ambushman2j]

inbreeding or crossbreeding?

[artw]

Same thing.

[ambushman2j]

It's not the same thing at all, inbreeding is brother/sister type thing, and crossbreeding is different species yellow lab w/ fuelleborni type breeding

[gvv]

Art had in mind that the result is the same...
Actually for sure the second is much worse.

[ambushman2j]

The result is nowhere near the same, ideally you'd rather not have inbreeding fish, but how many can say it's not happened?  all those bags of small fry you get at the auction can you honestly say that the seller went through multiple different parents fry and chose separate ones?..doubtful, likely you get a whole batch of the same type of fish which were from the same parents, and then you go and breed those.  You don't notice much of a difference in quality..where as x-breeding is quite obvious right away

[gvv]

all those bags of small fry you get at the auction can you honestly say that the seller went through multiple different parents fry and chose separate ones?

Exactly, you just may beleive the breeder or not.
And here is quite interesting info about inbreeding: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=25161&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=inbred&start=0
X-breeding also may not affect 100% of the descendants at first, but later on predominant genes will overcome.

[lcoates]

I almost bought those fish last night, they where very nice, but thanks to two very helpful  experts, they realized that they where hybrids, probably cross bred. They had two many strips, and the color wasn't that deep blue.
I am looking for some fry, Drew there are a beautiful fish, I'm glad your going to breed them.

[ambushman2j]

which ones? the demasoni or lithobates?

btw, did you get any of my e-mails today?

[luvfishies]

inbreeding or crossbreeding?

Inbreeding. Multiple generations of siblings breeding, with little to no influx of wild  or other genes. Little to no culling of less than exemplary fry.

Crossbreeding is another kettle of fish altogether; also something to be avoided at all costs.

[artw]

all those bags of small fry you get at the auction can you honestly say that the seller went through multiple different parents fry and chose separate ones?.

Well.
I mix up my fry from tank to tank all the time.  When a buyer takes a bag of estherae from me they can guarantee that there is at least 3 or 4 separate sets of parents who offspringed the fry.

This is why good responsible breeders shouldn't breed the same 2 fish over and over again. Get a group of at least 5 or 10 a nice big harem, so the females and the males get mixed up.

[artw]

inbreeding or crossbreeding?

Inbreeding. Multiple generations of siblings breeding, with little to no influx of wild  or other genes. Little to no culling of less than exemplary fry.Crossbreeding is another kettle of fish altogether; also something to be avoided at all costs.

Luvfishies I wish more breeders thought like you.   What are you breeding these days? we should take a trip down to Guelph hehe. I havent been there for over a year

[ambushman2j]

how do you know it's not all the same male breeding with all the females?

[artw]

because I watch my fish breed.

[lcoates]

Actually it was the Demasoni. Also due to that Nelson they are probably alot tamer, so you don't have to worry about to much aggresion.
I would like a friend like yours who gives you fish all the time!!!! Take Care

[ambushman2j]

you can't possibly watch all your fish breed, I am sure some breed at night, or when your at work..I would be quite surprised if you could with 100% certainty garentee none of your fish would be subject to inbreeding

[artw]

well if you want to start the insanity,  lets start by tracing my wild males and wild females back to somewhere in Lake Malawi.  These fish were at one point fry in the lake.  Fast forward 4 years. Stuart's men catch fish in one spot per species per day but on the next day they might be slighty west or east of the catchpoint.   Stuarts men bring home 400 estherae, both males and females, and send art 10.  are they the same fry that were spit from one female 5 years ago?

you can say the same thing about what happens in our home aquarium on a smaller scale.  put 5 males and 10 females in a tank, breed them,  over a period of 4 months you have 5 females spit once a month....   mix all the fry together or separate them and eventually mix them together based on size,  the chance of having siblings is quite low.  

this of course is assuming that the wild parents are not brother and sister  (LOL!)

[ambushman2j]

my point is how many people will do all that?  when you buy a group from the store, who's to say they aren't already brother and sister?..then they breed..even in a group of 5-5 it doesn't matter..all I know is I haven't had any complaints about my fry, everyone who buys from me seems quite happy with what they get, so if I am doing it, it can't be effecting them too badly..I really don't know the background on alot of my fish