120G Planted Tank

[Shawn84]

Finally got around to posting this. I have put a 120G tank at my place of business. I will be turning it into a planted tank with schooling fish and maybe a few discuss. I will be injecting CO2 into the tank.

Tank Spec
120G Marineland Tank
Tek Lights 8 bulbs t5HO
10lbs CO2
Mix of black and red Eco-complete
1 EJET 3388 Filter
1 Eheim Filter
2 Powerhead
Manzanita Branches


Stocking
200-300 Cardinal Tetras
200-300 Rummynose
2-3 German Super Red BN

Plant
Dwarf Hair Grass
Big Leave Fern



I am still considering what plant and fish I will be stocking in the tank. I am open to suggestion on placement of wood and plant. Idea are welcome  

[exv152]

After seeing it in person, I'm looking forward to your progress. Subscribed!

[daworldisblack]

Keep it coming!

[Shawn84]

I put the vinyl background on and turn the tank around so here is the front view of the tank. I added a group of Twin Gold Bar Platy and a group of Red Cherry Barb to the tank to help kick start the cycling process also added some planted.

Still searching for idea on what type of plant to have in the tank. But in term of fishes I have decided to go with 1 type of schooling fish for a better impact. If you have idea on a good carpeting, foreground and background plant pls let me know.

[Cheebs]

This is looking very cool, great job so far man!!

[Shawn84]

Here's an update on the tank. I added 8 Platinum Blue Angel and 2 Black Lace Angel. I have added dwarf hair grass, red tiger lotus, cryt. Still searching for different color of plant for the tank. The group of Cherry Barbs school pretty nice together. Algae already started as I'm getting a ton of natural sunlight into the tank in the afternoon as the blinds for the store have not been installed.  Also second filter and CO2 have not yet been install. I'm debating on a school of Asian Rummynose(last picture) to go together with my angel. What do you guy think?



Shawn

[daworldisblack]

Looking good! Some staurogyne repens would look neat there as well around the base of the driftwood perhaps? Plenty of Rotala and Ludwigias out there for colour as well. I really like the Angels! Are the asian rummies bigger ? Bigger would be better since angels can eat smaller tetras when they get bigger. Maybe a school of rainbows?

[Shawn84]

The staurogyne repens sound like a great idea. I'm trying to stay away from stem plant. But if i cant find any nice color then i will go with stem plant. As for the Asian rummynose they do get big enough that the angel will not touch on them.

[exv152]

Tank is looking good! I like the platinum angels and the Asian rummynose. Other ground cover plants to consider are hydrocotyle, glossostigma, HC or riccia fluitans to name a few.

[charlie]

Good Job Shawn, will be even more impressive when everything grows in.
Keep us posted.
Regards

[wrm130]

I find it very flat....any reason why you kept everything so level?

[Shawn84]

Yes it is flat cause I prefer it that way. Once all the plant take off you wouldn't notice that is is flat. Just a little update still waiting on the blinds so right now algae is an issues. I pick up some clean up crew to help with that.

12 Nerite Snail
12 Horn Nerite Snail
20 Otocat

Should be plenty to help keep thing in checks. Also I took out all 3 big amazon sword. Added some different type of crypt that I pick up from Montreal a few week back. CO2 is up and second filter has been added. So now is a waiting game.

[angelcraze]

......now algae is an issues. I pick up some clean up crew to help with that.

12 Nerite Snail
12 Horn Nerite Snail
20 Otocat

OMG. 20 ottos?  I guess they should help.  I actually have a diatom issue starting in my newly planted low light 120g, I picked up only 4 ottos, and 4 nerites, I wonder if they will do a good enough job?

I don't tend to scape my tanks flat, but it will be interesting to see how you plan to add height to such a high tank.  I see you have enough lighting, I always try to raise my tank substrate up to create interest and get the plants closer to the lights, simply cause I don't have as much as you-at all.

The amazon swords grow so tall, are the crypts you replaced them with going to grow as tall?
 

[Herstead]

I really love how this is turning out. Is it bad I am thinking of more tanks when our main one still has no water in it?

- Jonathan

[Shawn84]

Make that 70 oto cat. They are doing a great job at keep the algae in check right now and so is the snail. The snail are laying eggs already.

I really love how this is turning out. Is it bad I am thinking of more tanks when our main one still has no water in it?

- Jonathan

Nothing wrong with that. Im waiting to see your end result. As i know how beauty it can be once done.

OMG. 20 ottos?  I guess they should help.  I actually have a diatom issue starting in my newly planted low light 120g, I picked up only 4 ottos, and 4 nerites, I wonder if they will do a good enough job?

I don't tend to scape my tanks flat, but it will be interesting to see how you plan to add height to such a high tank.  I see you have enough lighting, I always try to raise my tank substrate up to create interest and get the plants closer to the lights, simply cause I don't have as much as you-at all.

The amazon swords grow so tall, are the crypts you replaced them with going to grow as tall?
 

Yes i don't have an issues with light cause its more than enough for the tank. Placement wise its a never ending change. The crypt i pick up do grow tall and i do have tall plant in the back. As the plant grow i will know if it should stay there or change it. Im still in the search for plant so more will be added as i find more suitable for my setup.

[wrm130]

70 Otto's?  Really?......

[Shawn84]

Yup. Some will be going into my parents tank which I am setting up for them. Even with 70 oto in the tank. It still don't look a lot at all.

[wrm130]

So you got 70 Otto's to put into two brand new tanks...

[Shawn84]

So you got 70 Otto's to put into two brand new tanks...

Nope my store tank is well cycled they are all in there right now. Will move them later once the other tank is finish. Plenty of food in the tank for them to eat.

[Stussi613]

So you got 70 Otto's to put into two brand new tanks...

Shawn isn't a rookie, he's probably got over 30 tanks running at home, and he set up most of the tanks at the Pet Expo last year where we didn't lose a single fish over the entire weekend.

[Shawn84]

Shawn isn't a rookie, he's probably got over 30 tanks running at home, and he set up most of the tanks at the Pet Expo last year where we didn't lose a single fish over the entire weekend.

Thanks for the kind words

[exv152]

Hey Shawn, I think your tank is great. I have to ask, where did you get the burmese (asian) rummynose tetras? Was it a local lfs?

[Shawn84]

Hey Shawn, I think your tank is great. I have to ask, where did you get the burmese (asian) rummynose tetras? Was it a local lfs?

I don't have them yet. Was gone a pick some up at he end of the month in Toronto. But they only have males right now and no female. Without female they don't color up as nice.

[angelcraze]

 

Shawn isn't a rookie, he's probably got over 30 tanks running at home, and he set up most of the tanks at the Pet Expo last year where we didn't lose a single fish over the entire weekend.

So you all are defending that adding 70 unquarantined fish at once to a tank that was filled up with water only a month and four days ago, a good idea?  Not to mention how these fish are a little more difficult to acclimate than say guppies, because they theoretically feed only on algae and are usually starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food.  

Rookie or expert, I don't get how introducing that many fish at once, or how someone's experience can have any influence on nature's ecosystem bioload outcome, is to be glorified.  For those who are new to fishkeeping reading this topic, this is simply not a good idea.  

The fact that Shawn84 set up most of the tanks at the the Pet Expo last year is commendable, but if a fish had expired in two days after being moved, this would make it a very weak specimen.  

I apologize for being direct, but I already sympathize with that fish as it is and personally would like to give each one a fighting chance for survival and the best possible environment given it's previously experienced trauma.  I don't understand how 70 otocinclus is a reasonable number for a clean-up crew in a newly cycled 120g, even half that amount, especially along with 6 angelfish, some platies, and other inhabitants.

[Stussi613]

So you all are defending that adding 70 unquarantined fish at once to a tank that was filled up with water only a month and four days ago, a good idea?  Not to mention how these fish are a little more difficult to acclimate than say guppies, because they theoretically feed only on algae and are usually starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food.  

Rookie or expert, I don't get how introducing that many fish at once, or how someone's experience can have any influence on nature's ecosystem bioload outcome, is to be glorified.  For those who are new to fishkeeping reading this topic, this is simply not a good idea.  

The fact that Shawn84 set up most of the tanks at the the Pet Expo last year is commendable, but if a fish had expired in two days after being moved, this would make it a very weak specimen.  

I apologize for being direct, but I already sympathize with that fish as it is and personally would like to give each one a fighting chance for survival and the best possible environment given it's previously experienced trauma.  I don't understand how 70 otocinclus is a reasonable number for a clean-up crew in a newly cycled 120g, even half that amount, especially along with 6 angelfish, some platies, and other inhabitants.

I can see your points, and I understand where you're coming from, but I was merely saying that Shawn didn't just decide to throw 70 Otto cats in this tank on a whim when he didn't know if it was ready for them.  He isn't a newbie

By, and large, people in this hobby tend to err on the side of caution because a dead fish is money wasted in the hobby. 

Talk to anyone that owns a store and they'll tell you fish trans-shipped from Asia stay in bags for three to four DAYS on their way to North America and they don't all die when they arrive and are put into regular tanks.  If the otto's were "starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food" then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

I'll tell you a dirty little secret my friend, I had these cool pigmy albino bristle nose Pleco's in my 120g planted tank that went into a 15g holding bin with my filter media for a month. I took them out of there and put them in my cichlid tank and them decided that every once in a while I'd catch one that was near the surface and put him in my 6g Fluval Edge with the Crystal Red Shrimp and Otto cats for a few days when the algae got out of control, then move him back to the big tank when he had cleaned up the real nuisance areas. You know what my acclimation period was?  Net from one tank, drop into the other, then net from that tank and put back. I just sold those fish after having them for a year and a half with no ill effects.

Fish are tougher than you think.  If they weren't every cichlid owner would be killing female fish when they net them, grab them and force their mouths open to make them spit out their babies, then plop them back in the tank they came out of.

All of us try our best to practice good husbandry. I've been keeping fish for decades and I always try to provide the best home possible for my fish...but sometimes you need to remember that the majority of the fish we get have never been in the wild area that has the perfect conditions that we try to replicate and they can handle a bit of a change and then acclimate to it.

[Shawn84]

I'm not offended at all by the comment. I'm glad there is a debate on the amount of fish I have in the tank. The tank has been up and running for almost 2 month now. With all the life stock I had, none had past away. Now i'm not recommending anyone who is new in the hobby to just go out and buy a tone of fish and just dump it in the tank. But if you really follow everything I did not add all fish at once it was over a period of time. My fish are all very hardy. They been either breed by me or been with me long enough to be used to our tap water. I do not recommend new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all. The oto I pick up are nice and healthy all have full tummy when I pick them up. On the bioload issues, these guy produce such little waste that its not even worth mention. On the whole big picture my filter can handle much more. I never put my feeding schedule so no one how much I am feeding so you don't know how much bioload is really going in the tank. All water parameter are in check. The angel. cherry barb, platty, and snail are breeding in the tank. So i can say that my tank is fully cycled. I can say i'm no expert but I do know what I'm doing.


Shawn

[angelcraze]

By, and large, people in this hobby tend to err on the side of caution because a dead fish is money wasted in the hobby.  

Is this what a dead fish is to you?  I don't think money at all when I see a dead fish, which is seldom these days, or due to factors that I cannot help, or did wrong.  I certainly feel bad about the wrong choices I made when I was new to fishkeeping and ended up with dead fish, or even one dead fish, but I consider that my ignorance even though I extensively research always now.  I never once thought of the money I lost, and don't know why this was even mentioned, since everyone knows Shawn84 got his otos for a buck apiece, at least the last 50.

Talk to anyone that owns a store and they'll tell you fish trans-shipped from Asia stay in bags for three to four DAYS on their way to North America and they don't all die when they arrive and are put into regular tanks.  If the otto's were "starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food" then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

These fish were shipped from Asia in oxygenated bags, and were indeed in rough shape when they reached North America, not all dead, but some were, this is obvious by the condition they were in at the store, tails all grounded down from stress, either not active, or plagued with ich.  Yes, Shawn's tank is a paradise compared to the overstocked store tanks, but what's the point of putting 70 of those oto's in his tank, this is hardly necessary for algae control, and their chances for survival would be heightened if they put into other individual's algae infested, cycled, established tank in reasonable numbers.  How can that many be justified for his personal stock?

I'll tell you a dirty little secret my friend, I had these cool pigmy albino bristle nose Pleco's in my 120g planted tank that went into a 15g holding bin with my filter media for a month. I took them out of there and put them in my cichlid tank and them decided that every once in a while I'd catch one that was near the surface and put him in my 6g Fluval Edge with the Crystal Red Shrimp and Otto cats for a few days when the algae got out of control, then move him back to the big tank when he had cleaned up the real nuisance areas. You know what my acclimation period was?  Net from one tank, drop into the other, then net from that tank and put back. I just sold those fish after having them for a year and a half with no ill effects.

You are comparing plecos, moving from tank to tank at your house with similar water parameters and plenty of food to eat in each tank to 70 otos, moving from a store tank after being shipped for days in a bag to a tank fully cycled, but established only 2 months 120g.  I won't get into the method these fishcatchers use to net them.

Fish are tougher than you think.  If they weren't every cichlid owner would be killing female fish when they net them, grab them and force their mouths open to make them spit out their babies, then plop them back in the tank they came out of.

Again, you are comparing otos to cichlids.  Cichlids are made to be a tougher fish suited with their aggressive natures.

I've been keeping fish for decades and I always try to provide the best home possible for my fish...but sometimes you need to remember that the majority of the fish we get have never been in the wild area that has the perfect conditions that we try to replicate and they can handle a bit of a change and then acclimate to it.

I have been keeping fish for almost one decade, not long at all, and I have make a lot of mistakes, and had a lot, more than I ever thought to learn, and I genuinely feel guilty if my lack of knowledge (which isn't learnt overnight) caused even one fish to die.  You would think that everyone would try to provide the best conditions possible, and I am not saying that they were in perfect conditions in the wild, some are saved by the hobby, but you have a lot more space/water to make up for a less than perfect effect being introduced into their environment in the wild than a closed ecosystem.  I don't see how it's fair to force 70 fish to acclimate to a condition involving "a bit of change" when half of them would run a greater chance for survival in someone else's well planted, established tank.

I simply find 70 otos at once overkill at the expense of the oto's health, I hope those gorgeous angels and other fish don't suffer any ill effects either.

[exv152]

...then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

Isn't Elysium the place where heroes go after death? 

What I love about this hobby is there's half a dozen ways to do the same thing, no one is right or wrong, as long as the end result is the same.

[angelcraze]

Just a little update still waiting on the blinds so right now algae is an issues. I pick up some clean up crew to help with that.

12 Nerite Snail
12 Horn Nerite Snail
20 Otocat

Make that 70 oto cat.

Now i'm not recommending anyone who is new in the hobby to just go out and buy a tone of fish and just dump it in the tank. But if you really follow everything I did not add all fish at once it was over a period of time. My fish are all very hardy. They been either breed by me or been with me long enough to be used to our tap water. I do not recommend new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all. The oto I pick up are nice and healthy all have full tummy when I pick them up.

You "picked up" the mass majority of these otos, 50 of them around the 19th of August.  The first 20 were added two days earlier around the 17th.  We are now the 20th.  That's a lot of fish in a very short period of time, I don't care what you say.  Have you looked at all your otto's bellies that you picked up, honestly?  Did you quarantine them, honestly?  You do not recommend  "new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all."  But I feel this is exactly what you have done.

So i can say that my tank is fully cycled. I can say i'm no expert but I do know what I'm doing.

No one ever said your tank wasn't cycled, but there is a difference between fully cycled, and fully established.  I just am concerned about the amount of plants and driftwood the 70 otos have to hide in, your tank seems fairly open so far, on the left side and I know you plan to let it fill in, but I only see a little hairgrass and you mentioned some crypts.  I believe otos would do much better in a more densely planted tank, for 70 of them anyway.  How does it not look like many fish in there?  Where do they all go?

[Shawn84]

The forums is somewhat alive again

What I love about this hobby is there's half a dozen ways to do the same thing, no one is right or wrong, as long as the end result is the same.

Well said Eric.

You "picked up" the mass majority of these otos, 50 of them around the 19th of August.  The first 20 were added two days earlier around the 17th.  We are now the 20th.  That's a lot of fish in a very short period of time, I don't care what you say.  Have you looked at all your otto's bellies that you picked up, honestly?  Did you quarantine them, honestly?  You do not recommend  "new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all."  But I feel this is exactly what you have done.

How is it that I am telling people to put the fish directly into the tank after buying it from the fish store? Can you tell me where along this build thread that I said that. Yes I pick it up from the store and added directly into my main tank. Yes i did check the belly of to otto cats before I buy. Also for your info the otto cat has been sitting in the store tank for almost 2 week now. How is it that I'm putting the fish in a tank that has an abundance of food hinder the survival of the fish? You think that 70 otto is too much for my tank? There is no real right answer to how many fish you can stock a tank. All depend on the fish. I can stock 100 otto in my 120 if given enough food.

No one ever said your tank wasn't cycled, but there is a difference between fully cycled, and fully established.  I just am concerned about the amount of plants and driftwood the 70 otos have to hide in, your tank seems fairly open so far, on the left side and I know you plan to let it fill in, but I only see a little hairgrass and you mentioned some crypts.  I believe otos would do much better in a more densely planted tank, for 70 of them anyway.  How does it not look like many fish in there?  Where do they all go?

By fully established do you mean by having it fill with all plant? Well the hobby had gone through many misconception. Otto actually like open area. A tank doesn't have to be fully planted to keep a group of otto cat. That's the misconception about this fish. One thing you need to know is that these fish don't live in area that is that densely with plant. Where they come from is slow moving river that is fill with dead organic matter and algae. Area where their in has no plant at all just rotting root tree and they suck on rock and very near the surface cause they can come up to the surface to breath. We in the hobby buy them for the ability to consume different algae that no other fish would. But here's another fact you must consider most people buy 1 or 2 otto cats. This is WRONG!!!!! they live in groups so just like any other community schooling fish you need at lease 5 or more. My plant stock is enough for now and I like what I have. I planted a bunch a Blyxa the other day. I have a lot of different type of crypts in the tank just haven't name them all yet. Will do that later. Yes i have stocking in the tank. But when consider the size of the tank to the size of the fish, it doesn't look like I have a lot at all. Now with the otto in the tank. It look more lively. They are all happy eating and tummy are nice and round. None are sick. Like I said I am moving half of the otto into my parents 75G I am setting up for them in the living room. I am moving the angels, cherry barb and platty  back home. I am also picking up 1200 cardinal for that tank. Let me ask you this if I were to put 1200 cardinal in my tank instead of the otto cat. Would you still make the same argument?

[Stussi613]

Isn't Elysium the place where heroes go after death? 

It's a reference to the Elysian Fileds, a place of ideal happiness. It does happen to be in Hades, and you do sort of have to be dead to get there, but what I was going for was the place of ideal happiness part...smart a$$

[Stussi613]

...

Once again, I'm not saying your points aren't valid, nor am I saying that I measure the value of my fish's lives in terms of their costs.

What I was saying is that we, in this hobby, tend to go overboard on being as pragmatic as possible to replicate a fishes perfect environment because the fish we keep come from far away and cost allot of money and they are living things that we love since we go to all these lengths to make the clear boxes we put them in as nice as possible.

I'm not going to argue against all the points you raised, nor am I going to say putting 70 ottos in a 120g is recommended for a person who is new to the hobby. I will say that I've seen with my own eyes that Shawn knows what he's doing and I've got enough confidence in his ability to judge the health of his fish before, and after he buys them, that I'm not going to question his choice because it goes against my idea of proper fish husbandry.  I know that he's got enough tanks at home that he could put 10 in each of them if he got into an emergency where he needed to get them out of the big tank. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the tank they are in now is better than the dirty tanks they were in before he got them.

[wrm130]

I am also picking up 1200 cardinal for that tank. Let me ask you this if I were to put 1200 cardinal in my tank instead of the otto cat. Would you still make the same argument?

This thread makes me sick.  Unsubscribed.

[Shawn84]

This thread makes me sick.  Unsubscribed.

It shouldn't make you sick. Why would it when hobbyist exchanging views on things. Have you seen a big group of cardinal of like hundred in a tank? I have and its spectacular. You can't judge something that you never seen before.

[charlie]

The only thing I will add to this debate is that the die off of Otto Cats post harvest , is significant with probably only a 40% live rate by the time it reaches the distributer .Hence I choose not to buy Otto`s within the first 2 weeks of arrival @ the LFS
As far as QT`ing  Ottos, I`m one of the  ones that have never QT Otto`s, so far I have been problem free.
Regards

[robt18]

I never quarantine fish. Watch them at the store. Like Errol said, if they're going to get sick/die within two weeks, they'll do it whether they're at your house or at the store. Watch for signs of illness while they're at the store, if they're clear, you should be good. Sometimes you can't avoid diseases like ich, which happen due to to the stress of moving more than anything else. It could be the result of taking them home, regardless of how long they were at the store/if they go into QT or main tank.

70 ottos is a good number in my opinion. The tank may be somewhat new, but I'm sure old media was used to add some bacteria to the system. They have a minimal bioload and as long as pH remains stable and they have lots to eat, they're typically a hardy fish.

As far as people's talk about shipping, fish are overnight shipped from essentially all distributors. They are in bags for one day, but packed so that they could last for two, should they miss a flight/there be complications, etc. Some distributors don't use oxygenated bags. I've shipped my fish overnight in regular bags, nothing special, and everything turned out fine. I don't remember how this was relevant to the thread, but those are the facts.

With Oto cats, I find it extremely important to know where the fish are coming from. For several years now, the otos coming out of Peru have been the healthiest and hardiest I've seen. The Asian fish farm versions tend to arrive malnourished and unhealthy. You can tell at first glance when you have a quality fish.

Personally I think 1200 cardinals may be a bit steep on this tank, but it could tank 600-700 no problem. In the wild, schooling and shoaling fish aren't found in groups of 5. Real schooling fish should be kept in bigger tanks in groups of at least a dozen, but really should have probably 50 to make them feel comfortable. Even with that being said, their behaviour is much more natural when they are in groups in the hundreds. Fascinating to watch and much better for the fish. They only thing to watch for when doing this is the large increase in bioload when the group is added.

[charlie]

http://www.otocinclus.com/feeding.html
This would help greatly with new tanks.

[wrm130]

I think my three biggest issues are:

- the sheer volume of fish Shawn insists on adding DIRECTLY all at once.
-Lack of plant density
-tank is cycled but still new, not established

Debate and pat him on the back all you want, I disagree with what he's doing.

[exv152]

To be fair to shawn, the tank may or may not be fully cycled, but the media in the canisters is. From speaking with him personally he mentioned he was going to be using established media/filters. And I don't think he said anywhere that he insists on adding them all at once. I'm not sure I would agree with 1200 cardinals, but maybe a fraction of that amount is doable over a period of time. Cardinals do have a minimal bioload, mature females produce more because of their larger bodies. But interesting thread.

[Shawn84]

I think my three biggest issues are:

- the sheer volume of fish Shawn insists on adding DIRECTLY all at once.
-Lack of plant density
-tank is cycled but still new, not established

Debate and pat him on the back all you want, I disagree with what he's doing.

Yes i am adding 1200 fish in but who said im adding it all i all at once? All i simply said is im adding in 1200 cardinal. I know that adding it all in at once will boost the bioload. Plant density play a part in help maintain water level. We are all so focuse on it has to be fuly planted this and that. Have you really look into where the fish come from? There natural habitat. Fish in our aquarium are very pamper compare to the one in nature.

This is a simple conversation. You learn through experience and i too did make a lot of mistake in the past. But with those mistake i can say that i am experience enough to know what i am doing and wouldn't kill my fish. They are my pride and joy.

On the whole tank cycle and establish comment. Your tank is never at a point of becoming fully establish. Due to the many factor like your weekly water change, plant decomposing, new plant being added, so many more factor can be name. So the whole notion of establish tank to me is just another term for being cycled. People tend to go over broad with that and dwell on that notion. Can you explain to me what is your definition of an establish tank and a cycle tank? How long does the tank have to be run to make it an establish tank?

70 ottos is a good number in my opinion. The tank may be somewhat new, but I'm sure old media was used to add some bacteria to the system. They have a minimal bioload and as long as pH remains stable and they have lots to eat, they're typically a hardy fish.

Personally I think 1200 cardinals may be a bit steep on this tank, but it could tank 600-700 no problem. In the wild, schooling and shoaling fish aren't found in groups of 5. Real schooling fish should be kept in bigger tanks in groups of at least a dozen, but really should have probably 50 to make them feel comfortable. Even with that being said, their behaviour is much more natural when they are in groups in the hundreds. Fascinating to watch and much better for the fish. They only thing to watch for when doing this is the large increase in bioload when the group is added.

Couldn't have explain things better. People don't realize the amount of food that is available for them to eat in my tank. I for one, never bought otto cat from store before due to the many issues that they have. I usually pick them up if people are getting rid of them from a hobbyist tank. But these guy were healthy and active. They are active in my tank. They been in there for 4 days nows and no sign of sick or stress. Happily swimming in group and eating.

[robt18]

Do people know what cycled/established really mean?

Water quality is a dynamic measure. If you take the used filters out of a 1000 gallon tank and run them on a new 10 gallon tank and don't put fish in for 6 weeks, all of the bacteria will be dead and not be beneficial at all.

In the same thought, if you use established media from a tank with a bioload of say 100 medium-sized fish and put it onto a brand new tank, the tank could probably support say 80 medium sized fish (give 20% for die off, beneficial bacteria in water column, gravel, etc.). Especially in canisters, most of the bacteria lives in your filter's bio media, so transferring it is pretty much like an instant tank start up.

If your tank is "cycled" and stable, the second you add a new fish the balance is offset an you're likely to have ammonia appear in the tank because the level of bacteria existing in the tank can't handle a greater bioload. As the ammonia appears, more bacteria grows and therefore can support the larger bioload. Adding new fish is the art of knowing how many to add as to not offset the balance of the tank too drastically, such that too much ammonia forms too quickly before new bacteria can grow to dissipate it. When you add too many, that's when NH4 levels shoot up too high and you can experience fish loss.

The easiest way to counter this is to cut back feedings when introducing new fish and slowly ramp them back up. Also, if you're sending/shipping fish to someone, do them a favour and don't feed the fish for a couple of days prior to shipping. The fish will release ammonia into the bag which in turn gets into their blood stream which is released into the the new tank quickly upon release. It definitely doesn't help the process of acclimation and rebalancing the tank.

[angelcraze]

Ok, where do I start?  You asked if I would present the same argument had you introduced 1200 cardinals in a short period to your 120g instead of the otos.  Obviously it would not be the same argument, because they are different fish and many cardinals are now being bred in captivity.  But, I would be concerned with adding that much at once for sure, which has already been established.  To exv152, he never said that he added them all at once, and he didn't, he did it within a couple of days, we just know that, it's not hard to figure out when there were 'shouts' on oto sales.

I would just never add any fish directly from the store into my prize tank, or with other fish to potentially pass on an illness.  This is just my practice, you may argue that I am too cautious, prudent, but I feel this is safe.  I just disagree with quarantining fish while at the store, if that's what you are saying.  That's just my opinion then, but I just would never take a chance in making my other fish sick, when it is preventable.  To me, this is not doing everything one can to provide a safe and stable environment for the fish.

You asked what the difference is between a cycled and established tank.  robt18 explained this,  A 'cycled' tank, we all know has passed the stages of the nitrifying process.  The tank has enough beneficial bacteria to support the bioload.  If more fish are added, the beneficial bacteria multiply.  'Established' refers more to a balance in the tank, between fish, bacteria and plants.  Stability.  By adding that many fish at once, a tank will never be balanced.   Also, I was just wanting to point out, that in a new tank, the substrate needs some time to settle in, and a lot of the beneficial bacteria stores here too, not just in the filter, but you know this.  This can definitely be explained better, I just don't feel like it right now.

No, Shawn84, LOL, I would never just buy one or two ottos when they prefer groups of five or six at least, but seventy?  I was just saying I thought that amount was overboard, and didn't see the point.  You never mentioned how many you were giving to your parents, or how big their tank was before.

And about their wild habitat, you are saying that they come from a slow moving river that is filled with dead organic matter and algae.  Where there are no plants, just rotting tree roots and algae covered rocks, which they feed on.  I wasn't saying pack your tank with plants, if I like lots of plants, and you like beach areas, scape-wise, to each their own, but you said it yourself, rotting tree roots, rocks with algae, your tank will be hardly rotting, or have much decomposition yet, I see no rocks.....You said that you purchased the first batch of ottos as a cleanup crew to take care of an algae bloom until you get blinds, I thought twenty was plenty for that purpose, then two days later, you said "make that 70 oto cat".  That just blew my mind to use as a cleanup crew, and just felt it was overkill, again, I don't see the point for algae control.  I didn't know if you were boasting, or just got impulsive.  

It was how some members were condoning, glorying this, that upset me.  You never said or encouraged new fishkeepers to buy a (imo) ridiculous amount of fish for their tank, but you have to remember that there are new hobbyists reading these threads for ideas and info, and might get steered in a disastrous direction, especially when other members are encouraging this.

To Stussi613, I don't understand how if there arises a problem in his 120g, due to disease introduced by wild caught ottos without enough QT time, how dispersing them between the 30+ tanks he has at home is a solution.  I wasn't talking about simply, exclusively water quality and biolad.   I realise they are a small fish.  (although I still feel seventy added in small period of time is too much, and maybe he can brag that he can do this, but I wanted to make clear that this is not commendable common fishkeeping practice)

In the end, I would like to say, good for you and all the members who have had good luck in not QT'ning fish, especially wild caught ones, Shawn84, it's good you are happy with your tank, I just don't agree with your method, and think it's detrimental for newbies to follow this.  I really do hope, for the fishes' sake, that you do not run into problems.
 

[wrm130]

Yes i am adding 1200 fish in but who said im adding it all i all at once?

that i am experience enough to know what i am doing and wouldn't kill my fish. They are my pride and joy.

On the whole tank cycle and establish comment. Your tank is never at a point of becoming fully establish. Due to the many factor like your weekly water change, plant decomposing, new plant being added, so many more factor can be name.

YOU.  You yourself insinuated that you would be adding 1200 cardinals at once asking if my opinion would differ had you added them instead of 70 ottos.  Both quantities are ridiculous.

Experienced aquarists can judge the health of fish but most would not add 70 of any kindof fish at once.

As for the tank being established, you've defined it well.  Plants breaking down, waste building up that kindof thing.  THAT is an established tank, which you do NOT have.  Your tank is new and you're still pulling out and putting in new plants.

This is my issue.

[exv152]

YOU.  You yourself insinuated that you would be adding 1200 cardinals at once asking if my opinion would differ had you added them instead of 70 ottos.  Both quantities are ridiculous.

Experienced aquarists can judge the health of fish but most would not add 70 of any kindof fish at once.

As for the tank being established, you've defined it well.  Plants breaking down, waste building up that kindof thing.  THAT is an established tank, which you do NOT have.  Your tank is new and you're still pulling out and putting in new plants.

This is my issue.

How about the fact that his filters can turn over the volume of that tank several times per hour, and the fact that the media is well seeded with nitrifying bacteria? That should count for something, should it not?

[wrm130]

Yes, it does.  For sure!  In the initial phases absolutely.  And at that he did a good job.  Couple angelfish and other randoms...

But water turn over and bacterial breeding rates are two totally different things which I'm sure you'll agree.

If the tank was 'well cycled' and stable before, it sure hit a big bump when he dumped in 50 ottos.

[angelcraze]

How about the fact that his filters can turn over the volume of that tank several times per hour, and the fact that the media is well seeded with nitrifying bacteria? That should count for something, should it not?

So you get a big, bad filter, and you can add as many fish as you want in a very short period?

The nitrifying bacteria still needs a few hours at least to accommodate such a prompt bioload, roughly 120-140 inches of fish.  I don't necessarily follow the rules of gallon per inch of fish or when it comes to lighting myself, but we are talking about "a short period" of maybe two days.  

Btw, I love blyxia!!!  Good choice.

[charlie]

For the sake of this debate, these are the points that jump out at me.
three of the concerns that seem to be the main issue are adding 70 otto cats to the tank that is not " established",
not enough food present in a new tank ?( subject to correction), & lack of QT.
Here is my question, if he added the 70 otto`s to a QT tank which in most cases are no different from what he has attempted to do here ( a new tank with cycled media from other established filters) what is the advantage of the QT tank food wise & established tank debate over the 120 Shawn has used ?
Keep in mind I`m not saying anyone is right or wrong, just playing devils advocate.

[angelcraze]

Hey Charlie, not trying to fight, I have seen from your other posts that you are very successful.  But what about the pretty platinum angels, platies and so one, that inhabited the tank before he added the ottos? What danger is he putting them in?  Personally, my hospital tank is fish free when I add my QT fish from the store.  Oh, and I would never use my tank on display as a quarantine tank.

[wrm130]

The tank is new, there is not enough food present.  Even if he feeds them, otto's graze continually throughout the day.

He did not quarantine any of his new fish showing a lack of good husbandry for his existing stock.

The introduction of 50 fish at once is ridiculous-ish.  Species specific debatably.  Had he quarantined 50 neons THEN added them, I may have felt differently.  Otto's are not the same.  Once again going back to the food and established tank issue.

The only way I'd be ok with this was if he'd quarantined, say 12-18, added them and waited.

It just seems so impulsive, as if they were more of a commodity.

[wrm130]

Oh, and Shawn is a very nice guy.  Friendly and easy to talk to.  In no way am I attempting to insult him:)

I just disagree with his methods.

[charlie]

Hey Charlie, not trying to fight, I have seen from your other posts that you are very successful.  But what about the pretty platinum angels, platies and so one, that inhabited the tank before he added the ottos? What danger is he putting them in?  Personally, my hospital tank is fish free when I add my QT fish from the store.  Oh, and I would never use my tank on display as a quarantine tank.

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"
Other than that the "establised tank" point does not hold water in this case, as both the QT& the 120 are on par

Again the lack of sustainable food point for both tanks are on par.
Not promoting no qt but for me I make the decesion whether to QT or not.
Not p
Regards

[angelcraze]

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"
Other than that the "establised tank" point does not hold water in this case, as both the QT& the 120 are on par

Again the lack of sustainable food point for both tanks are on par.
Not promoting no qt but for me I make the decesion whether to QT or not.
Not p
Regards

Ok, maybe I am missing your point, idk, yes, the "QT" and 120g are on par, "cycle" speaking, but did you answer about potentially the ill effects suffered by the other inhabitants?  In Shawn84's case, the angels, the platies, cherry barbs?

[charlie]

Ok, maybe I am missing your point, idk, yes, the "QT" and 120g are on par, "cycle" speaking, but did you answer about potentially the ill effects suffered by the other inhabitants?  In Shawn84's case, the angels, the platies, cherry barbs?

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"

That`s what I meant , I agree there is a risk where contamination of other livestock by not doing so, other that that nothing else offered in this debate whether he used  a QT tank , e: the not enough food & established tank, Again I`m not advocating not QT` igf live stock, but as we all know their are times when it`s not possible.
Regards

[angelcraze]

Not possible?  Or how about, just not buying a (imo) ridiculous amount of fish to QT at once, and putting other fish at risk?  This is his personal stock.  It could be done in smaller intervals.

This debate is insane, I am running into the same problem in my quarantine tank with my ottos.  I have four in a 5.5 g.  the tank has been going for years, but there is very little brown algae, or any algae, but I think the ottos prefer diatoms.  I have been adding rocks from another brown algae infested tank, and any leaves I trim from the tanks go into the 5.5g as a treat until they are wiped clean.  I will have 5 ottos in each tank, but it will be done slowly, and carefully QT'd.  Whatever, this is another thread, what I am saying is that even for four ottos, I am concerned about giving them enough to eat, yes, in a QT tank, they don't touch the zucchini or algae wafers, which is why I am concerned about him wanting to keep 35 indefinitely in his 120g and 35 in his parent's 75g.  If he purchased them for the reason he said, to take care of the algae problem, and because they do better in groups, then again, I feel he went overboard and is impulsive, without being conscientious of his current tank inhabitants.

[Shawn84]

Heres the thing I ask you how you know my tank does not have enough food for the otto to eat? So far. Provided very little info in that. So jumping the guns and saying my tank is new and does not have enough food is wrong. I see thatmy tank has plenty of food for them and of course i will be supplimenting other food for them. But in no mean that they do t have enough food to eat. In all case you should QT your fish. Im sure i made it clear that i agree with that. But by no mean that the otto would have better chance of survival if it was in QT compare to the main tank.

The tank is new, there is not enough food present.  Even if he feeds them, otto's graze continually throughout the day.

He did not quarantine any of his new fish showing a lack of good husbandry for his existing stock
The introduction of 50 fish at once is ridiculous-ish.  Species specific debatably.  Had he quarantined 50 neons THEN added them, I may have felt differently.  Otto's are not the same.  Once again going back to the food and established tank issue.

The only way I'd be ok with this was if he'd quarantined, say 12-18, added them and waited.

It just seems so impulsive, as if they were more of a commodity.

They are not a commodity.they are my pride and joy. So one cant add 50 fish to a tank at any point? Adding 12-18 each time stress fish out more. As you already know, each time you add a group of fish where the you QT them or not you may still run into issues. Even from home tank to tank. Why? Well cause the existing tank mate have to learn to welcome the new one. Due to this factor the fish are recommended to b place in the tank during light out.

All in all everyone has there point and view on how to do things. There's no right or wrong answer just different technique of achieving the same result.  

[fischkopp]

Interesting read, killed quite a bit of efficiency, hope everyone had a good summer!

For what it's worth (not a lot), here are my thoughts to this topic:

The fish that Shawn is adding should make a nice addition to the setup; numbers are chosen to make an impacts. The tank should house them easily, provided it's setup and taken care of properly. Meaning, the water quality is top notch, read: largish water changes on a regular basis.

The bioload of these fish is little, even in numbers, and you would be amazed how quickly the bacteria in a tank catches up with it (it's a matter of hours) provided they are pre-existent and there is enough capacity/surface area for them to settle. You know that you went too far if a bacteria film builds up on the glass (though in Shawns case the oto cats would like that ...). Cycling in a way is over hyped, as there are many factors that play into this, as mentioned in this discussion, and it's a continuous process that adapts itself to the (ever changing) environment.  Anyway, my point is tank size determines more what size of fish you can put in it, not so much the numbers, as long as you stay on top of water quality. Mind you, in the wild, fish do actually live together quite densely.

Is food gonna be an issue? I doubt that. Yes, oto cats graze all day, and there will be a point that they won't find much food this way. That why we all feed our fish, and most of us tend to over feed. I believe starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums.

Quarantine is a good thing for sure. There are certain fish (discus!) that I would never mix without that step, but tetras and oto cats are not really prone of having issues (other than ick maybe, which isn't a big deal).

The only thing that I would be concerned of is feeding the cardinals to the angels. But we talked about that before ...

There are a couple of other things I could add here, but that's better talked over with a beer or two. So to conclude: Shawn isn't doing anything I wouldn't do or haven't done myself. Kudos! It's gonna be a nice tank!

Happy fish keeping!



Disclaimer: Understock your tanks though if you have no time for maintenance!

[angelcraze]

Wild caught fish, internal parasites.  Sometimes this isn't noticed at fist glance if lets say the fish contracted it during shipping for example.  I personally think there is a greater risk of disease with wild-caught fish, also difficulty to 'train' them to eat prepared foods.

I habitually do a weekly 30-50% w/c in all my tanks ranging from 5.5g to 120g.  I personally tend to understock, because I enjoy watching the behaviour of each fish and interaction with plants (my preference).  About changing water, I don't see changing too much to be an issue, since the greater quantity of bacteria is stored in the filter media and substrate, hardscape.  I feed my fish once a day, or every two, and very little, so I agree, "starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums."  

I just worry about my ottos, they seem to be so picky, and could not imagine 70 of 'em.  My problem with Shawn's method was more putting the other fish's health at risk.  Maybe he could have removed the angels, platies and cherry barbs prior to QT'ning the otos?  

[Stussi613]

Angelcraze, you feel quarantining all incoming fish is a must, totally respect you on that. Not everyone has a QT tank, nor do they feel the need to QT every fish. It seems you have as hard a time accepting that as you have accepting the possibility that it might actually not be the worst thing in the world to add 70 otto's to a 120g...at least according to 3 of the most knowledgable fish keepers on OVAS (Rob T, Charlie and Fishkopp). 

When I had my discus tank the only fish I QT'd before adding(other than the discus which were added in one batch with a filter that had been running on my 60g to seed it) were the 100 Cardinals and 40 Rummynose I got from Montreal that looked sketchy when I brought them home. It's a good thing I did too because they had ich...but I was only able to QT them because I hadn't sold the 60 yet.

I'm building out a 25g FOWLR QT tank for my impending 120g saltwater build because nothing will be going in my tank without a dip, a bath or 2 weeks in QT...but I never had a dedicated QT tank when I had a freshwater tank as I didn't feel I needed one.

[Shawn84]

Wild caught fish, internal parasites.  Sometimes this isn't noticed at fist glance if lets say the fish contracted it during shipping for example.  I personally think there is a greater risk of disease with wild-caught fish, also difficulty to 'train' them to eat prepared foods.

I habitually do a weekly 30-50% w/c in all my tanks ranging from 5.5g to 120g.  I personally tend to understock, because I enjoy watching the behaviour of each fish and interaction with plants (my preference).  About changing water, I don't see changing too much to be an issue, since the greater quantity of bacteria is stored in the filter media and substrate, hardscape.  I feed my fish once a day, or every two, and very little, so I agree, "starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums." 

I just worry about my ottos, they seem to be so picky, and could not imagine 70 of 'em.  My problem with Shawn's method was more putting the other fish's health at risk.  Maybe he could have removed the angels, platies and cherry barbs prior to QT'ning the otos?   

Yes WC fish can have internal parasite which does not often show up and hell some have it and never show up until something in your tank trigger it. I have plenty of WC fish and none had die in my hand. No one is disagreeing the fact that you SHOULD QT newly fish if your still new at the hobby. But the fact that I used my judgement and put them in my main tank is no big issues. You say yours having a hard time eating? Well i let you know that my 70 are eating algae wafer. They kill 2 over the span of 2hrs so to say they are picking I personally think they are not. Like all fish you have to give them time to adjust to the new process food. Just because they don't eat it a couple of time don't mean they wouldn't eat it at all. I test the water twice a day and let me tell you that the parameter are the same no spike what so ever.

Here's the thing I keep specialty shrimp and they are by far more finicky then the otto's. Some don't even touch process food only algae and biofilm in the tank. The fish in your tank may behave differently then the one in mind that's just the natural of things. No 2 tank are identical so same goes the fish.

[charlie]

Guys , I think we have all made our point regarding the addition of the 70 otto cats to Shawn`s tank, let`s move on & revert to the build of Shawn`s 120 gln tank.
Regards

[Shawn84]

A little update on the tank. The tiger lotus I have is growing nicely small and compact. I guess this is due to the strong lighting from the sun and the T5HO. All the crypt are growing and seeing new leaf after some had melted away. The only plant where I don't see anything is the crypt prava. Blyxa is turning a bit brownish red on the leave on some of them. Don't know is its due to the high light or water parameter. Life stock still healthy and eating well. Algae is is 30% gone still about 70% left.

[daworldisblack]

A little update on the tank. The tiger lotus I have is growing nicely small and compact. I guess this is due to the strong lighting from the sun and the T5HO. All the crypt are growing and seeing new leaf after some had melted away. The only plant where I don't see anything is the crypt prava. Blyxa is turning a bit brownish red on the leave on some of them. Don't know is its due to the high light or water parameter. Life stock still healthy and eating well. Algae is is 30% gone still about 70% left.

Nice progress! Blyxia does get brownish red under higher light so you def have a high-light tank!

[Dxpert]

Time for some new pictures Shawn?

I've had trouble keeping Oto's from BigAl's in Kanata. They had hundreds in three different tanks from their last shipment - I didn't wait a few weeks before buying like Charlie suggests. I'm planning to try again with 10-15 this time, where would you recommend I buy from?

-Mike

[Shawn84]

I will take a pic later on today or sometime this week. As for where i find the store on Innes has better stocking in term otto. Looking for ones that is actively and tummy are either flat or round and not sunkin in. Look for any damage fins. And most of all ask them when did they got them in. The guy who sold me my otto was exetremly nice and told me they had issues in one of there tank with the otto and they didnt sold any from that tank.


Shawn

[exv152]

A little update on the tank. The tiger lotus I have is growing nicely small and compact. I guess this is due to the strong lighting from the sun and the T5HO. All the crypt are growing and seeing new leaf after some had melted away. The only plant where I don't see anything is the crypt prava. Blyxa is turning a bit brownish red on the leave on some of them. Don't know is its due to the high light or water parameter. Life stock still healthy and eating well. Algae is is 30% gone still about 70% left.

Shawn are you running all eight t5ho bulbs at once? If so I would recommend cutting that back to four, and hanging the fixture at least 30" from the substrate. Should help in the algae battle.

[Shawn84]

Nope I'm running 4 at most. Its mainly due to the nature sun light that is coming from the windows as the blind company haven't finish doing the print design on the blinds it self. So each day the tank get about 4-5 hours of sun light.   

[Shawn84]

Here's a video I took of the tank earlier today.

http://youtu.be/EmH1gc_qoAQ

[lepageg]

Hi Shawn,

I'm going through the same process as you but because conditions in my tank were not stable, opted to move my angels out until things were under control.

Couple of questions, how long has your tank been setup now, and have you noticed any significant rise in ammonia or nitrite since.  And if so how high and how long?  where does your Ph sit? is it stable or does it flutter?

cheers!

[Shawn84]

Hi Shawn,

I'm going through the same process as you but because conditions in my tank were not stable, opted to move my angels out until things were under control.

Couple of questions, how long has your tank been setup now, and have you noticed any significant rise in ammonia or nitrite since.  And if so how high and how long?  where does your Ph sit? is it stable or does it flutter?

cheers!

The tank been up and running for 3 months now. I didn't do any testing on my water. My 2 filter are well seeded before adding to the tank. So cycling wise it was reduced to minimum. Also plant were added from my other tank so it carry bacteria over. I did not add a lot of fish in at the beginning but enough to sustain the bacteria. Just take your time since you are keeping wild altum angel. I find them not hard to keep after the initial first month of bring it home.  If you can manage to keep them alive that long. You should be fine. Also if picking up from the store make sure the fish stay in there tank for atlease 2 week. The longer the better. 

[cdylnicki]

Hi Shawn,

I am curious to see how things are going in the tank.

Did you end up with any health issues in your fish?

What was the survival rate?

Any updated picts?

[Shawn84]

Sorry been busy with work and stuff. The tank is up and running for almost I think 7 months now. All plant and fish are doing good. Some die off of the oto cat but still have around 55-57 left. I started using liquid fert to help with plant growth. Will take a picture soon and post it up.


Shawn

[charlie]

Sorry been busy with work and stuff. The tank is up and running for almost I think 7 months now. All plant and fish are doing good. Some die off of the oto cat but still have around 55-57 left. I started using liquid fert to help with plant growth. Will take a picture soon and post it up.


Shawn

Where is the pictures Shawn?

[wrm130]

Updates and pics please!

[angelcraze]

Hi, just here to remind you we are all waiting for pics, we all want to know how your tank is doing.........updates ready yet?

[fischkopp]

Exactly! Where are the pics?!? If we don't get to see some soon I will have to come over with my camera!

The tank looks pretty nice actually.

[Shawn84]

Exactly! Where are the pics?!? If we don't get to see some soon I will have to come over with my camera!

The tank looks pretty nice actually.

I will take you up on this Robert. Since i'm no photographer.