Pressurized CO2 question

[PrincessFish]

So, if I want to set up a pressurized CO2 operation can someone provide a list of what is required/recommended, approximate costs and options for purchase location?

I've just put together my second month of Hagen ladder CO2 and it's not working - I think the yeast must be too old (even though I just bought the kit a month ago! ).  I'm going to go out and buy yeast but am concerned about regulating it (I assume that is what the stabilizer packet is for?) and wonder if it's just a better long term solution to go pressurized.

Do they sell CO2 test kits at the lfs's?  It's probably the only one I don't have 

Do we have to take the tank in to get filled regularly? how regularly? and at what cost?

Thanks in advance!!!

[BigDaddy]

I split this from the original thread, PrincessFish, so as not to treadjack

Big Al's carries the Red Sea line of pressurized kits.  All you need is to add the tank.  eBay can be a good source for the Milwaukee pressurized setups, which are probably the ones you'll see the most often.

If you've never done pressurized before, better to get a kit than put one together.  That being said, here is what a pressurized CO2 setup requires

CO2 tank
Regulator
Needle valve
Check valve

Optional components include
Bubble Counter
Solenoid

Obviously, the tank is the source of the pressurized CO2.  The regulator adjusts the pressure down to usable levels (around 20 psi) and the needle valve further adjusts the pressure down to as low as .5 psi depending on the quality of the needle valve.  A check valve ensures no water flows back to the regulator or any of its components which could cause damage

A solenoid allows you to automatically turn on/turn off the flow of gas with a timer and a bubble counter will give you a visual cue of how many bubbles per minute you are injecting into the tank.

Other than that, you just need a diffuser or a reactor.  These can be purchased or made.

How often to fill the tank depends on how big a tank you get (5 and 10 lb tanks are common) as well as how much CO2 you inject.  Filling a 10 pound tank costs me around $16

Hope this helps

[PrincessFish]

Thanks Big Daddy, that's very helpful. 
How frequently do you have to fill your 10lb CO2 tank and what size of aquarium tank do you have it running on?  Thanks a ton!! I will start saving 

[BigDaddy]

Well... I inject a fair bit as I have a high light 75 gallon that's heavily planted.  My 10 lb lasts me just under a year usually.

[PrincessFish]

Awesome!!
Now that's worth spending the money on!!  I only have a 25 g now but am planning to move to ~ 90 g. later this summer/fall with fairly high light I expect as I'm a gardener.  Not having to deal with more than turning dials for a year would work very, very well for me!
Do you regulate to maintain a steady CO2 level within the tank?  Or a steady pH? 

[BigDaddy]

Steady CO2 level... there are pH controllers available that you can hook up to the solenoid... but in all honestly they are un-necessary gadgets

The target is to maintain 25ppm of CO2 anytime the lights are on.

[PrincessFish]

Ok, I'll try to make this the last question   
And how do you measure that? so as to know that you are in the right ballpark.

[BigDaddy]

you have to take measurements of kH and pH... check out the other CO2 thread for a link to the chart

[PrincessFish]

I lied - just call me question girl! 
Ok, so my tank has a KH of 20 - if I start pumpin' CO2 in to 25 ppm, that will bump my pH down to 6.2ish!  Or, if I want to maintain a pH of ~7 then I'll have to push my KH up to almost 150!
??

Even to get my CO2 up to 10ppm (into the green) it looks like I'll have to adjust my KH up to 60 - how shall I do this?  With bs?  What is your KH?

I had been sitting pretty stable at pH=7 and KH=20 for the past six weeks (since even before getting the CO2 kit???) . . . then 2 days ago my CO2 needed replacing but it is not working properly and my pH is now up to 7.4.  (I'll be at the store getting fresh yeast today!)  And I'm afraid to do a water change because that'll only make it worse - my tap pH is 8.4 with KH 20!  I'm going to have a science degree by the time I get good at this 

However, this experience is just reinforcing the pressurized option because it would allow me more flexibility in terms of maintaining pH - I'm getting worried about my fish!!

Any suggestions or advice??

Thanks for your patience BigDaddy!! 

[BigDaddy]

Don't worrry about maintaining a pH level of 7.  The fish you keep have no problem with lower pH values... or with slight swings during water changes.

If it comes out of the tap at 8.4 with 20 degrees of kH, then once you get your CO2 injected at proper levels, it should be somewhere between 7.4 and 7.6

If it puts your mind at easy any... my tap water usually comes out at almost 7 with 1 degree of kH.  My tank routinely sits anywhere from 5.9 to 6.2 during lights on and I do 50-75% waterchanges weekly.

[PrincessFish]

Thanks BigDaddy!  Once I get the CO2 back up and running properly I'm sure the gals and guys'll be very happy!!

[pitabread]

I ordered a setup (regulator, valve, solnoid) from J&L, and got a 5 lb cylinder from Davidson's fire extinguisher.

That was awhile ago (last August I think?) and I haven't had to refill the cylinder yet.

[PrincessFish]

Hi PitaBread,

       That's superb!  Do you mind me asking who and where is J&L and where is Davidson's?  And what was the $ damage? 
       I just bought a second Hagen canister and ladder set up and a bottle of yeast at the grocery store.  This will allow me to get one up and running before the other runs out to ensure the fishies don't have to contend with too much pH change -- 7.0 to 7.6 is quite a big change I believe.  Especially over only 6 days.  I think it will have dropped or at least stabilized by the time I test it again tonight.
       There's no question that if I get a much bigger tank I'll want a pressurized setup!
pF

[BigDaddy]

7.0 to 7.6 is not a big change over 6 days.. its barely a big change over 6 hours....

Stop worrying about pH changing 1 point over the course of 24hours... its really no biggie

[babblefish1960]

To augment BigDaddy's comments, I would suggest that you take readings throughout the day, before the lights come on in the morning, during the afternoon sun, and of course the early evening and after the lights go out, you would find that the pH changes throughout each day because of the different processes happening chemically within the water due in part by photosynthesis, and the creation and dissolution of carbonic acid. This is true in the wild, and very much so in our small aquariums.

So as the tall fellow said, don't sweat the small stuff, it sounds like you have very nice conditions, and I suspect your fish are all smiles.

Though the changes in pH is exponential, the fish for the most part are built to handle quite a swing in change, excepting of course a few very sensitive fish, other things to keep a closer eye on would be nitrites and nitrates and naturally ammonia, these are why we do water changes.

See, you looked, I can tell, they are smiling aren't they?!

[PrincessFish]

Hi Babble,

       My fishies do seem to be much happier in the past two hours interestingly enough.  For the past two days they've spent most of their time hiding in the back but now they're back out front again moving around.  I got the CO2 back up and running at noon so I'll be interested to see what the stats are tonight.
       I have a detailed spreadsheet with all the stats from Ammonia, nitrites, pH, GH, KH, nitrates (these I've been testing 2x/wk - daily until the cycling was over) and I also have tested Iron (free and chelated) and phosphates but much less frequently.  All my stats so far have been taken in the evening around 9 or 10pm.
       I will start figuring out CO2 at various times during the day as I'm very interested.  I think I will also get the second canister and ladder up and running because when I put in my stats for pH and KH my CO2 has never been really in the 'green'.
       I'm just so happy I have this forum and all you experienced folks to provide guidance!  As a 'being' lover (previously cats and dogs, bunnies, cattle, etc) I get very concerned when I think the 'beings' I am caring for are in distress - especially if I don't have the foggiest idea of what to do for them.  Thank you everyone!!

pF