TANK CRASH...ALL DEAD

[Brine]

I am beginning to suspect the fertilizers because many of the plants melted today and the tank had a distinct yellow tint and a bad smell. I know I dosed much more than I usually do because I did not measure, I just poured some in. I remember thinking "ooops that was more than I had intended to add"  I did a 100% water change and took out about 60% of the plants because they were dead or dying. The water looks much better now but I am going to wait some time before I put any fish in it.

[bergenm]

The question might seem out of place... Do you have a cat?

[tim_s]

If all testing is done (which is probably done as your changing things) I would just re-start the tank.
Better then being unsure and subjecting further fish to the problem.

[Brine]

The question might seem out of place... Do you have a cat?

no cat...just me and the fish...well, just me now   

[Brine]

I borrowed an Ultra Violet sterilizer from Dan 2X38 and took out yet more dying plants. I did a partial water change (50%) and then put in a few Rummy Nose Tetras last night. Today the fish were dead...again. I am going to have to tear down this tank and clean and replace a bunch of stuff. Since this is a family website I will only say I find this quite frustrating and disheartening.

So the mystery remains...what went wrong? Since I have done over 100% water change there is NO WAY that a slight overdose of fertilizers is the cause. I only added 4 or 5 cap fulls of Seachem Flourish which is at MOST 4 times the "recommended dose". After these water changes the fertilizers would be so dilute that they would be of negligible effect and should not have effected the Tetras last night.

So what else could it be? Is it possible that the Prime I use in water changes could effect this one tank and not the others I have? No....
Is it something in my tap water or the buckets I use? Same answer... No it would effect all the tanks not just the one.
So could it be that my hands became contaminated on Monday night with something that then got transfered only to that one tank? Possible but ...likely? I have difficulty believing that I would not have noticed something as potent as this would need to be to cause this amount of damage even after more than 100% water change. Possible still, but likely, no.

Did one of the first batch of fish die and somehow transfer toxins to the others somehow (perhaps they all ate a bit and died) Not possible because the Rummy Nose I put in last night had no contact with that first batch of dead fish.

It must have been some kind of poison that is strong enough that residual toxins still in the substrate or filter can kill after UV sterilization, 150% water change, four days from onset until now and removal of ALL the fish, ALL the driftwood and MOST of the plants.

Currently the tank is still running with the filters and UV sterilization because I don't know what else to do. I am at a loss. I guess that I will tear it down sometime this week and clean what I can and throw out the rest.

[dan2x38]

OK Brine I ran a battery of tests on the water sample you gave me.

Results: NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0 all excellent results signs of optimal aquarium water. Then tested PO4-off the chart... my kit reads to 10ppm soon as I added the regents it turned dark. Your suppose to wait 3 mins. to read it and wait for full colour. This would be suspected from an overdose of ferts though. I have an Fe kit maybe I'll test that but it takes 30-45 mins. When I have been fertilizing with Tom Barr EI method which is heavy doses of PO4 most I had was 1.5ppm. Is this the problem? I don't know?

You are the link and have the answer buried somewhere... maybe there is someone here can do some real serious testing on this water? I'll keep it just in case.

Remember you can boil the driftwood, rocks... I can help replace some of the plants. When your ready will give you 2 rosey tetras been thinking on getting rid off. Not sure what to do with your substrate you can boil it too I guess? I also have some filter media Ehiem Substrat & some Seachem stuff too. Then stuff filters with pot scrubbers & floss. Can also get you started with some seeded sponges. Also can let use some Potassium Permanganate to clean tank & parts BUT for God's sake rinse all of it off... nothing will live after that! LMK

[Agnate]

You can also clean tank stuff with OxyClean, as it just breaks down into water (and not soap). 

[bergenm]

Just a thought...

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/forum/substrate/593-wooohoooo-my-good-eco-complete-has-arrived.html

[dan2x38]

Doing some of my own research I was reading about tank fertilizing. High levels of PO4 can cause fish deaths so does sudden increases in nitrogen. As in phosphates look at marine tanks & phosphates in nature it kills fish. Your NO3 was low. Let's say you dumped in a large amount of multi plant ferts this contains nitrogen & phosphates. With the low NO3 the sudden large increase in nitrogen can cause sudden fish deaths. It is sort of like pH shock. The nitrogen levels should increase by 1ppm until you reach the disired level between 10ppm-20ppm.

This is a possibility in theory. Flourish would not cause death on an established planted tank with NO3 readings above 10ppm as the fish would be accustom to it - just like fish would be use to pH swings in an established planted tank with CO2. But a newer tank might crash with a large sudden dose of nitrogen & phosphates.

Using the same bucket to fill all tanks if there was a contaminate in there it would have caused issues with all tanks.

[charlie]

Brine try putting some of the eco in a container of fresh tap water, pre test the phosphate prior to adding the eco & then test the phosphates again after a few days.

I highly doubt adding 5 - 6 cupfuls of Flourish to a 75 gallon tank is going to elevate your phosphates that high, just have a gander at the concentration of phosphates in a bottle of Flourish ( it`s on  the label or the Seachem site)

We can also test that by adding it to a 5 gln bucket of water. which will be supper saturated with Flourish.

[dan2x38]

When I tested his water before WCs as soon as I added the regents for a PO4 test it turned black almost. It is suppose to sit for 3 mins. to get a reading. The kit only reads to 10ppm. Usually it is a light greenish colour after the 3 mins.

[bergenm]

I believe Charlie is recomending a controlled test.

The tap water is put in a bucket and tested for PO4, then eco-complete is added and after a couple of days the water is re-tested. If the PO4 has spiked then we know the problem was with the eco-complete and one potential cause of the crash has been identified.

If you are going to run the test it might be worthwhile to have a second bucket without the eco-complete to use as your control.

[dan2x38]

I believe Charlie is recomending a controlled test.

I do release that... I am just stating what I've researched. From what Brian has said there are very few causes? I do know the PO4 was through the roof! That means that the nitrogen had to be also!

On the label of Flourish it says that PO4 is 0.01%. I know this is low but the reading went off the chart instantly +10ppm. On the label N is 0.07% 7x more then PO4. By theory the concentration would be mean that nitrogen would not be just off the chart but shy high.

My hypothesis is since there was no gradual increase in N then the highly concentrated sudden dosage caused shock and all the fish died in a short time. The N was also accompanied with the PO4 sudden high concentration. If you review the facts that Brian put forward what else is there but the overdose of ferts? So far I see no other explanation unless Brian has left something out.

[charlie]

I do release that... I am just stating what I've researched. From what Brian has said there are very few causes? I do know the PO4 was through the roof! That means that the nitrogen had to be also!

On the label of Flourish it says that PO4 is 0.01%. I know this is low but the reading went off the chart instantly +10ppm. On the label N is 0.07% 7x more then PO4. By theory the concentration would be mean that nitrogen would not be just off the chart but shy high.

My hypothesis is since there was no gradual increase in N then the highly concentrated sudden dosage caused shock and all the fish died in a short time. The N was also accompanied with the PO4 sudden high concentration. If you review the facts that Brian put forward what else is there but the overdose of ferts? So far I see no other explanation unless Brian has left something out.

Has it occurred to you that the Eco complete could have being leaching phosphates for quite sometime & could very well explain why it was high.

Is there a possibility that decaying fish will elevate phosphates.

How do you know your phosphate kit is accurate?

Here is short list that can contribute to phosphate levels
uneaten food

plant decay

dying algae

fish feces

dead fish

carbon filter media

aquarium salts

pH buffers

kH buffers

water itself

Here is a link that support my belief that high phosphates is rather harmless to fish, please be advised that phosphates in really high levels can contribute to algae blooms , when the other nutrients are out of sync
http://fish.orbust.net/waterchemistry.html.

[BigDaddy]

four capfuls of flourish in a tank that size absolutely will NOT kill fish

Email Seachem if you want the detailed answer why

[BigDaddy]

Let me make a very simple example that will be more than crystal clear.

Anyone who is dosing EI properly in their tanks is dumping over 10 x the "recommended dosages" of said fertilizers in their tanks than what is on the Seachem label.  If those concentrations are high enough to kill fish, then charlie, myself and thousands of other EI dosers would be killing fish left right and center.  It simply isn't happening.

[bergenm]

Here is a link that support my belief that high phosphates is rather harmless to fish

I am no expert on water quality, and I agree that high phosphates would probably not kill the fish but I believe high phosphates can greatly reduce the total buffering capacity of water which would then leave the tank vulnerable to large fluctuations in the water's parameters, which could wipe out a tank.

I have seen this happen at some of the Super Pets and PJ's Pets and the losses were staggering, mind you the loss in buffering capacity was not directly from phosphates in those cases.

[dan2x38]

I said N spike being the real cause and PO4 a factor. If N is not increased gradually it can cause death.

What are others hypothesis? Read Brian's list of what he did and did not do/use.

PS- waiting reply from Seachem

[BigDaddy]

I put a he'll of a lot more nitrogen in my tank at one shot than five capfuls of flourish.

And I do of three times a week

And in a tank with sensitive fish like discus and rams

So are thousands of other planted tank hobbyists

It wasn't the N or P in the Flourish

[irene]

Brian- you said that the 8 red eye puffers in that tank had been disappearing one by one till you only had one left.  Any chance there were numerous dead and rotting fish bodies in the tank?

Irene