TANK CRASH...ALL DEAD

[charlie]

OK Brine I ran a battery of tests on the water sample you gave me.

Results: NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0 all excellent results signs of optimal aquarium water. Then tested PO4-off the chart... my kit reads to 10ppm soon as I added the regents it turned dark. Your suppose to wait 3 mins. to read it and wait for full colour. This would be suspected from an overdose of ferts though. I have an Fe kit maybe I'll test that but it takes 30-45 mins. When I have been fertilizing with Tom Barr EI method which is heavy doses of PO4 most I had was 1.5ppm. Is this the problem? I don't know?

You are the link and have the answer buried somewhere... maybe there is someone here can do some real serious testing on this water? I'll keep it just in case.

Remember you can boil the driftwood, rocks... I can help replace some of the plants. When your ready will give you 2 rosey tetras been thinking on getting rid off. Not sure what to do with your substrate you can boil it too I guess? I also have some filter media Ehiem Substrat & some Seachem stuff too. Then stuff filters with pot scrubbers & floss. Can also get you started with some seeded sponges. Also can let use some Potassium Permanganate to clean tank & parts BUT for God's sake rinse all of it off... nothing will live after that! LMK

Dan , does this not contradict your hypothesis ??

[dan2x38]

OK doubters read what SeaChem says:

I wrote:

I have a friend who dumped a very large amount of
>Flourish in his basic planted tank. It was a 75 gallon
>established for 3-4 months. It was a community tank with
>a maximum bio-load of fish. After pouring a very large
>amount of Flourish into the tank the next morning he woke
>up and all his fish were dead. This time period was
>approx. 10 hours.
>   
>  Is there a toxic level of Flourish? Can a large spike
>in nitrogen or phosphates cause sudden fish deaths?
>   
>  I tested his water for NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3=10 but PO4 was
>over 10ppm instantly after adding regents. This is as
>high as the API PO4 test kit reads and you need to wait 3
>minutes for the reading.
>   
>  Thank you,
>  Dan
>
>       
> ---------------------------------
> Now with a new friend-happy design! Try the new Yahoo!
>Canada Messenger

Hi Dan,

Any product/additive can be dangerous if grossly
overdosed.  It is always very important to follow the
dosing instructions on a product's label.  If too much
phosphate is present in the water, the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect, despite
phosphates not being directly toxic to fish.  Flourish
also contains a trace amount of iron; however, if
overdosed, it may have raised the iron to toxic levels.
We are very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend's
fish, but please stress to him the importance of following
the dosing instructions on the product label.  If you
would like to read more information, here is the link to
the Flourish product web page:

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourish.html

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Thank you,

Tech Support
1076
Tech Support
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650
888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070
seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So they even say it is possible and they make it!

[BigDaddy]

Dan.. your message to Seachem was unclear (you didn't establish the actual amounts and frequency 'ie 5 capfuls once in a 75')

Do the simple math

The guaranteed analysis on a 250mL bottle of Flourish is .01% of available phosphate.  That's a concentration of 100 PPM of available phosphate in it.  You dilute that portion into 75 gallons (283905.8835 mL) of water and you are NOT going to get a concentration of 10 PPM.

Therefore, even if I dumped an ENTIRE BOTTLE of Flourish in a 75 gallon, it would be physically impossible to have a level of 10 PPM of phosphate from the Flourish.

[charlie]

OK doubters read what SeaChem says:

I wrote:

I have a friend who dumped a very large amount of
>Flourish in his basic planted tank. It was a 75 gallon
>established for 3-4 months. It was a community tank with
>a maximum bio-load of fish. After pouring a very large
>amount of Flourish into the tank the next morning he woke
>up and all his fish were dead. This time period was
>approx. 10 hours.
>   
>  Is there a toxic level of Flourish? Can a large spike
>in nitrogen or phosphates cause sudden fish deaths?
>   
>  I tested his water for NH3=0, NO2=0, NO3=10 but PO4 was
>over 10ppm instantly after adding regents. This is as
>high as the API PO4 test kit reads and you need to wait 3
>minutes for the reading.
>   
>  Thank you,
>  Dan
>
>       
> ---------------------------------
> Now with a new friend-happy design! Try the new Yahoo!
>Canada Messenger

Hi Dan,

Any product/additive can be dangerous if grossly
overdosed.  It is always very important to follow the
dosing instructions on a product's label.  If too much
phosphate is present in the water, the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect, despite
phosphates not being directly toxic to fish.  Flourish
also contains a trace amount of iron; however, if
overdosed, it may have raised the iron to toxic levels.
We are very sorry to hear about the loss of your friend's
fish, but please stress to him the importance of following
the dosing instructions on the product label.  If you
would like to read more information, here is the link to
the Flourish product web page:

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/Flourish.html

Please let us know if you need further assistance.

Thank you,

Tech Support
1076
Tech Support
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Seachem Laboratories, Inc.
1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650
888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070
seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So they even say it is possible and they make it!

Dan i`m still a doubter, i think you need to go back & read every posting so far.
For starters i`m of the opinion that you have mis represented the facts to Seachem , thus the answer you received.
In Brine~s revelation of how much Flourish he added , he clearly stated he added at the most 4- 5 capfuls, is that dumping a very large amount in a 75 gallon tank,  not by my judgement, especially since as disclosed in this thread the EI dosing  which myself & others have practiced for a long time is much more concentrated than the 4- 5 capfuls of Flourish.

Secondly did you read this part of the response from seachem

the process of
eutrophication will be advanced.  In such circumstances,
algae and water plants grow wildly, choke the waterway,
and use up large amounts of oxygen.  Many fish and aquatic
organisms may die as a secondary effect,

It`s totally impossible for that to occur in ten hours, let alone with no lights.

[charlie]

Here are a couple more facts that does not lend any support to the fertilzer theory you so strongly support,
(1) Brine has  indicated that he has since done a 50% water change , followed by a 100% water change, after which he still lost a new batch of Rummy nose, is it still likely that the 4-5 capfuls of Flourish is the culprit ??
(2) Everyone who had their first experience of EI dosing , including you, should have lost their tankful of fish after dosing their first dose of Nitrate, Phosphate & potassium, if you think the 4-5 capfuls of flourish was so potent to drastically elevate Nitrogen to shock the fish. Just some food for thought.
My wild guess as to why the Phosphate was elevated & the Nitrate was minimal , when you tested the tank water after the the massive die off, it is very likely that due to the natural rapid decomposition of fish & the fact that it was a mass die off( Volume of fish)this resulted in the elevated Phosphate readings, whatever caused the die off remains a mystrey, but i suspect something corrosive due to the reaction of the live stock & reaction of the plants in such a short time span.

[bergenm]

My wild guess as to why the Phosphate was elevated & the Nitrate was minimal , when you tested the tank water after the the massive die off, it is very likely that due to the natural rapid decomposition of fish & the fact that it was a mass die off( Volume of fish)this resulted in the elevated Phosphate readings

I believe the PO4 test kits only test for inorganic phosphates so it would not be picking these up as they are organic.

[dan2x38]

People I give up... Seachem said it is possible and their products should be used as recommended. Write them and urge with them... but they already wrote, "as recommended"!

[charlie]

I believe the PO4 test kits only test for inorganic phosphates so it would not be picking these up as they are organic.

I could be way out on left field here , as i do not focus too much on the chemistry of test kits, i very rarely use them  , but as i understood it from API INC. their test kits read total Phosphate Ions, which in my interpetion includes inorganic & organic, i repeat i might be somewhere out there 

[busdriver]

Sorry to hear about your loss, Brine.
Man, that's gotta suck, big time.

[Brine]

Brian- you said that the 8 red eye puffers in that tank had been disappearing one by one till you only had one left.  Any chance there were numerous dead and rotting fish bodies in the tank?

Irene

I found only two corpses of the 5 that disappeared...and that was a week or two before the crash. I've  since torn the tank down and found no evidence of corpses.

[bergenm]

as i understood it from API INC. their test kits read total Phosphate Ions, which in my interpetion includes inorganic & organic

Sorry, I might have been a bit mis-leading with my last post. Yes the test kits will show phosphates from organic and inorganic sources. It's just a question of how decomposed are the phosphates from organic sources as to whether or not they will register.

How it has been explained to me in the past is when animal matter, plants or food decay, they produce 'organic phosphates' - phosphates bound to other cellular material. As the bacteria consumes the decaying matter, the cellular material is broken down and the phosphates are converted to 'inorganic phosphates' (phosphates not bound to other cellular material). It is my understanding that it is only the phosphates not bound to other cellular material that will register on a PO4 test. So the level of phosphates in a tank are always higher than the PO4 test indicates, because some of the phosphates will not register as they are not broken down enough.

My point was that I felt that the fish that had died within the last 10 hours would not have decomposed enough to spike the PO4 test. Now if there were some from a few weeks ago, that might be a different story.

Sorry for the confusion...

[tim_s]

as random as it seems it wasn't random without a test kits during the introduction period just left us blind to a cause.

I am not sure discovering the answer will mean much in the end.

I would just take down the tank clean it out.  Let it dry.  Re-cycle and using a test kit follow any fish introduction for at least 3 weeks if not longer.

[fishycanuck]

Hunh.... always nice to know what happenned.... better call in Mulder and wassisname. 
Brine, let me know if I can help - I can bring seed material, test kits, and a python - and if that doesn't help we can play with the Magic Tracer Thingy and eat cookies.

[dan2x38]

Brian do you need some started plants? I have no spare fish though. LMK

[charlie]

Hi Guy`s , i took the liberty to write Seachm, i want to make it clear , this was not to put down anyone , but more of clarification on the issue & to clear any misconception of  Flourish. Here it goes both my e mail & Seachems reply.



>Friday, September, 5, 2008 at 04:38:38> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------> > comments:  Hi, we have a ongoing discussion in our local >Aquarium club, one of our members experienced a total >loss of all fish & most of his plants, speculation is >rift that one of the reasons is due to the accidental >overdosing of Flourish comprehensive  accidental dose was >5 capfuls, this was dosed in a 75 Gallon.> > This "tank Crash" happened over night as the member said >all was fine before retiring to bed, the next day all his >livestock was dead & the plants began to melt ,changing >color, the water also had a distinct yellow tinge.> He has since done a 50% water change followed by another >100% water change, to his dismay he added some Rummy nose >Tetras, only to have them all die over night again .> > One member tested the Water after the first Tank Crash& >said his findings were as follows>  NH3-0, NO2-0, NO3-5, KH-3, GH-3, pH-7.4, Cu- 0, except >for the Phosphate which appeared to be off the charts , >since as he added the testing reagent the sample >instantly went very dark.> > Hoping to hear from you ,one member speculates it had to >be the overdosing of the 5 capfuls , a few of us say no , >the 5 capfuls would not be potent enough to create that >reaction in that time span ( 10- 12 hrs & there was no >lighting), plus the fact that there was 2 water changes >since & the same faith was handed out to the new fish.> Regards Errol> >


Hello,It is definitely not the over dose of Flourish comprehensive supplement.  There has to be some other underlying issue.  You are correct the huge water changes also tell that it is more than likely not Flourish.  The fertilizers are very safe and even the dosage on the bottle that is suggested is well under stated just because we know things such as this may happen.  The worst that could have happened from this type of dosing would have been an algae or bacteria bloom from the increased nutrients in the water.  Which would be unsightly and a hassle but not deadly.  There is nothing in the fertilizer that would cause problems for fish and/or the plants.  This product would have to be grossly overdosed to harm animals.  Thank you for the email.  let us know if we can help further with the matter.Seachem Support10202Tech Support~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Seachem Laboratories, Inc.1000 Seachem Drive, Madison, GA 30650888-SEACHEM  Fax 706-343-6070seachem.com - jurassipet.com - watergardenoasis.com - avipet.com~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~No message is selected
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