Just my opinion....

[beertech]

Hi all,

I must say I'm surprised and dissapointed with the latest developments I've just noticed with the website rules/changes.  I've been around for quite a while, frequenting this site and another local saltwater site. I've gotten lots of useful info and given some helpful advice to newbies, and met quite a few nice people. All of my in person meetings have been through the classifieds, as I really don't have time for meetings or weekend get togethers. In fact, the sale or trade transaction usually ends up in a lengthy discussion  and results in the exchange of some really interesting info and insight into different setups and ways of doing things. The very nature of this hobby makes it necessary to either frag corals, trim plants, or find a home for fry etc.... (I'm referring to all aspects, salt, fresh and ponds.) There are also times when you could end up learning about a few different variations, all from one visit.    As far as I'm concerned,  what makes this hobby so much better than others is the opportunity for personal interaction even without having to schedule group meetings etc..  Believe it or not, this actually helps our local sponsors too, with lots of personal recommendations and sharing shopping experiences.
Over the years there have been ups, downs, changes and disagreements between users on this site as well as other local sites, but I have always stuck around and eventually things settle down into the new routine.  This time seems to be different though. The changes and new rules recently put into place have caused a huge negative reaction from a lot of people. In my opinion, it seems that the executive now have an attitude towards non members, and are trying to strictly control and almost censor the way people use this site.  I don't think anything good will come of this, and you will gradually notice a drop in users, which will in turn negatively affect our hobby.  I understand that there have been some instances of abuse of priveleges concerning the classifieds in particular. However, I think it would be better to continue to deal with it individually on a case by case basis and not make such drastic changes that will inevitably insult and turn some people off of this site.  Every site has it's rules and mods, and usually things get worse when the mods try to micro manage and start censoring.  On the other hand, (And this is just an example) there is a local site that is exclusively salt water. Occasionally, someone will submit a post that is about ponds or fresh water setups. The users there are very receptive and reply and interact in a positive way. They usually start off with a big "WELCOME!!"  Then there could be a bit of discussion and mutual education. There is no pressure to become a member, and no negative feelings towards someone who posted something outside of the box or may just be browsing the classifieds. I think this is just a sign of maturity and they understand that it's not a big deal to stretch the rules a bit and relax.   It just goes along with being part of the fish keeping family.   
I did purchase a membership one year, and didn't renew it because I simply didn't use it for anything. I felt at the time that it was just a cash grab. I also resented being forced to buy it just because i had sold some frags and someone decided I had exceeded the limit. I would have gladly reduced my ad frequency as I do agree that the classifieds get pretty crowded sometimes. All it would take is a polite request and possibly a reminder once in a while.
I really hope there will be some sort of re-evaluation by the OVAS executive, and possibly adjustments or reversals made.  Unfortunately, until then I honestly don't think I'll be spending as much time here as I used to, as I feel I'm not exactly welcome.

Gord

[Saltcreep]

^^ Wow,  except for the bit about the frags and whatnot, I could have written those exact same words myself. Darn near every one. Glad to see I'm not alone.

[kole18]

I agree with you gord

[holachicka]

I agree word for word!!!

[Snowgrrl83]

I also agree.

[Jeff1192]

Sorry but I have to disagree. OVAS.ca is an extension of the club. As such it is maintained by the club and therefore rules are set by the club. Members are given a chance to vote for the executive and then the executive acts in the best interest of the club. I see no problem with the changes that have been made recently. The classifieds had become a problem and now this is an attempt to deal with it. The executive is trying to act in the best interest of the club. Let's give the changes some time and see if they work. If they don't appear to be working I'm sure the executive will look at it again. But this constant complaining about the executive's decisions needs to stop. They are volunteers acting in the best interest of the club, without them, there is no club. If this sort of behaviour continues there may be no one left to run for the executive as no one will want these headaches.

Bottom line, if you don't like the direction of the club (this site is part of the club), become a member and then you'll get a say.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

[crashar]

Sorry but I have to disagree. OVAS.ca is an extension of the club. As such it is maintained by the club and therefore rules are set by the club. Members are given a chance to vote for the executive and then the executive acts in the best interest of the club. I see no problem with the changes that have been made recently. The classifieds had become a problem and now this is an attempt to deal with it. The executive is trying to act in the best interest of the club. Let's give the changes some time and see if they work. If they don't appear to be working I'm sure the executive will look at it again. But this constant complaining about the executive's decisions needs to stop. They are volunteers acting in the best interest of the club, without them, there is no club. If this sort of behaviour continues there may be no one left to run for the executive as no one will want these headaches.

Bottom line, if you don't like the direction of the club (this site is part of the club), become a member and then you'll get a say.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Finally someone with something to say that I can agree with wholeheartedly.  I am a member but have been unable to attend meetings lately.  I have found this to be a useful and friendly site with loads of information.  A great resource for beginners and old hands alike. 

That said,  the constant carping about one decision or another made by the executive has become more than tiresome.  I find myself wanting less and less to even check this site out.  It is not the executive decisions which are driving me away, it is the constant carping about their decisions and bickering which seems to go on.    None of it serves to build up the club.  In fact it is doing just the opposite.  We are all free to disagree but some of the posts on here lately go far beyond simple disagreements.

If this continues I would be surprised to see anyone wanting to volunteer to work on the executive. 

Just my 2 cents.

[ordi260]

If this continues I would be surprised to see anyone wanting to volunteer to work on the executive. 

Or even read the site...its about aquatic animal keeping and related stuff...not drama....i have to agree with you guys, its becoming less and less appealing to visit the site lately. 

IMO, as a member, its alright to express our opinion if we disagree with some decisions but writing a formal letter or even just a formal PM to the exec is way more effective than creating topics...

thread dedicated to opinions will end up as a bunch of opinions conflicting with each other...

that was my 2 cents and last comment regarding the recent changes

[charlie]

After receiving a request & consideration by the web team this thread has been unlocked.
We ask that the thread stay as it is, civil & on topic.
Regards
Errol Choo
Web Team

[criswallace]

So basically i have to pay $ to matter?.... dumb rules its a shame i used to love this site now its just another dirty money grab.

[FocusFin]

So basically i have to pay $ to matter?.... dumb rules its a shame i used to love this site now its just another dirty money grab.

In early 2007, I was visiting different sites on-line for info on a keeping a betta healthy. I found this site and thought "great it has everything I need". I didn't know at that time that it was a local club.

When I realized that the people on this site were right in my backyard instead of somewhere in the States, I couldn't believe my luck. Here was everything I needed to be successful in this hobby. I immediately purchased a membership so that I could help keep this site up and running. I've never felt that it was a cash grab and I'm Dutch so we are about as tight as you get with money .

How long do you think this site and club would last if everyone thought the way you do. No one would volunteer or provide any financial assistance to run things and very quickly things would shut down. No more site, no more club.

Fortunately, there's a certain number of people who are willing to give back and keep things going so the rest can have a site to frequent.

[ajm1961]

I agree with FocusFin - a club needs some financial support in order to continue providing value to its members, as well as the community. For example, the donation of an aquarium and fish to a local school. It's time people recognize the efforts and the mandate of this club, and I think the rules being put in place are aligned with this direction. At a mere $25 a year, which gives you 10% supplies at several LFS, it is a BARGAIN, not a cash grab. The face-to-face meetings and activities are great - this is not just about a web site.
Thank you to the all the volunteers who make OVAS a reality, and to all the members who support the club - I raise a hearty cheer to you all! 

[robt18]

So basically i have to pay $ to matter?....

No, you have to pay to attend meetings and post classified ads. Your opinions on the forum related to fishkeeping are welcome, you're welcome to ask anyone on here for their knowledge as well. Everything about the club is exactly the same as it used to be, except for posting items for sale.

[Brine]

No, you have to pay to attend meetings

I am pretty sure anyone can attend meetings. You don't need to be a member.

[Brent Shaver]

This club has been around for at least 50 years without doing the math.  I know for a fact that most clubs dont allow anyone to participate in any event or function with out a member signing you in as a guest.  Therefore if you dont buy a membership you dont exsist.

OVAS on the other hand, not only has an open door policy, they open there arms to any new comer, offer an extensive amount of information to anyone that takes the time to ask (which is priceless), never closes the door to meetings and guest speakers that the club had to pay for them to show up.

Actually advertizes things like BBQ's, Christmas Parties etc so that members and non members alike can attend.  The Executive works very hard in any club, and from what I have seen lately is working way to hard considering they do this because they love the club and fish hobby, now they have to be moderators for complaints and mostly because of a classified section (which is the stem of most of the drama lately).  Why should a club that is based on membership feel guilty because they changed a couple rules.  At no time has any rule that I have seen in the club attack someone or do damage towards the club.

I think it is time to remember why we are here, FISH.  Enjoy the site and learn, help or what ever it is that you need to gain from this site, but to complain because a club that has a paid membership to only help and gives back to the community and doesnt let people make money by selling things is selfish.

I did put my name in for the Exec because I seen the amount of names volunteering was weak, and I even waited until close to the end.  I am in no way upset I am not on the Exec, and to be honest with all the drama that has been going on because the club wants to better itself is more then disheartening.  There is now a large part of me that is glad I didnt get elected.  From what I have seen here too many dont appreciate the work that is involved to host this site, and run the over all club.

I just wish we could just talk about fish, isnt that why everyone came here in the first place??

This is my first and last 2 cents worth....

[garnpet]

So basically i have to pay $ to matter?.... dumb rules its a shame i used to love this site now its just another dirty money grab.

There seems to be a common misconception that the recent changes are just a money grab by OVAS.  For those of you who attended the last May meeting where our budget was presented you will know that this year (as in other years), club expenses on meetings, speakers, special events, aquarium donation, etc... where pretty well equal to our income through membership and Giant Auction profits.  All the money taken in by OVAS is spent on club activities.  

As mentioned many times during this argument, ovas.ca is just the on-line extension of the club which has been in existence for about 55 years now.  We consider this site as a benefit to our members and forum users as a place to exchange ideas and get advice from other aquarist in the Ottawa area.

The only part of the forum that you can't participate in right now is selling items in the classifieds, and truthfully if that is all you think that matters then there are forums specifically for selling items you can go to.

[robt18]

I am pretty sure anyone can attend meetings. You don't need to be a member.

I thought you got a freebie, and then it was $5 per non-member for each meeting after that? It's very possible I'm wrong, but that's how I thougt it was.

[beertech]

Thank you very much Charlie, for unlocking this thread.

I agree, it was intended to be rational and calm in the first place. Any irate responses can be sent to me via PM, as some already have.
I still don't understand why this change was necessary though. What harm was actually being done by allowing non-members to feel like they were welcome and able to post ads? How difficult is it to just monitor and address any abuse case by case?
 In response to the comments that memberships help support the site, and without them, it wouldn't exist:  
Yes, memberships do bring in cash flow, but so do Commercial sponsors. In fact, don't they bring in more money?  I don't know how the sponsorship deal works, but I'm assuming they have to pay a premium to advertise and post here, right?  And it is probably worth their while, based on the amount of traffic that this site gets.  But now, after charging the sponsors their fees based on potential traffic and sales, the club is taking action that will (In my opinion) reduce the overall potential customer base.
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, and any sponsors with input or clarification would be appreciated.  

Gord

[garnpet]

I thought you got a freebie, and then it was $5 per non-member for each meeting after that? It's very possible I'm wrong, but that's how I thougt it was.

Anyone is encouraged to attend our meetings.  We do take an informal attendance at the door, and non-members after a visit or two are stongly encourage to buy a membership.  Ocassionally we do get in a speaker that costs the club a bit more than usual, and non-members are required to pay to attend these meetings.

At a mere $25 a year, ....

Actually only $20 a year.

[robt18]

You're correct, sponsors pay an annual premium to have their banner displayed at the top of the page, and to have their own subforum which they control.

The changes were made so that the focus of the website wasn't on the classifieds, it would be about the knowledge. Personally, we aren't concerned about a decrease in traffic due to the classified restrictions.