Saltwater Questions

[darkdep]

Ok, so I've been given a request by the family that when I get my 90gal going, that I put together "a nemo tank".  Which, to my 4 year old, simply means having a clownfish (or 2) in it at a minimum, everything else is a bonus.

I will have two 30gals at my disposal for this potential project, so could conceivably do a tank with one and a sump with the other...I don't really understand why sumps are more common on saltwater setups (is it just that they're that good at filtration and saltwater fish need that level to thrive?)

So, let's say I have standard freshwater equipment for these two tanks...Canister (Fluval 404), Marineland biowheel, heaters, fluorescent lighting, etc.

I have yet to do any exceptional research into available options, but I'd probably want something simple like a couple clowns, and "alternative" marine life like some crabs or something.

Can anyone knowledgable give me some suggestions on how to proceed?  What equipment would I need?

[yellowtang]

You don't have to have a sump in your 90g if you don't want.
what a sump does is give more water volume and circulation to your tank.....But it would be recomended.
having a 90g and 30g sump tank gives you a 120g of water at your disposal .Also means macroalgae and breeding population of small invertebrates for your fish and corals to feed on.
It also means you can put your skimmer/heater in there; therefore eliminating two items that you don't want to see
(cosmetics).
As for powerheads and lights.     that is another story.
just ask. some of us will help in what ever we can.
LOL.

[darkdep]

I wouldn't be using the 90 in this setup, sorry if I didn't make that clear.  I'm in the process of setting up a 90 as a large Malawi tank; because of that I've set up a couple of "temporary" 30gals to hold the fish I've happened to come across on my stock list.  The point is that when my 90 is established, the temp tanks will be free for a new project; so my goal would be to use a 30, possibly with the other 30 serving as a sump.

So here's what I don't get..."skimmers"...Explain to my why nobody uses these in freshwater?

Macroalgae, if I understand, is a craplocker of algae and some plants that sit in your sump, with a light on 24 hours a day...and the idea is that this stuff sucks up the nitrates.  Correct?

I notice a lot of people use lots of powerheads in a salt tank...why?

I don't understand "Live Rock" or "Live sand"...help?

[rockgarden]

Give me a call and drop over to my place some day and I can show you what can be achieved with a 30 gallon reef setup without sump, without skimmer, etc.

Not comparable to some more complex set-ups that I have seen but certainly a good starting point to get some perspective with respect to the 30 gallon possibilities.

The primary decision is whether or not you will be trying to have coral growing happily with NEMO (recommended) or just have NEMO swimming around the dead coral ornaments (not recommended). Generally NEMO is more tolerant of water conditions than other reef inhabitants.

A SW fish-only tank requires a somewhat different set up than a fish-only-with live-rock setup (FOWLR) and a straight reef set-up without fish has less demanding requirements tahn a full-scale fish with full reef set-up with all the coral and fish and equipment you can happily afford. And of course no two reef tanks are alike and every one has a differnet opinion on which arrnagement is best.

IMO lighting is the most noticeable.important difference between FW and SW.   The second would be water flow rates with live rock being third.  Others will switch the order but I think that most would agree that those are the three main differneces.  

And the cost of everything associated with SW is initially substantially higher. Hard to get used to the idea of a couple of hundred watts of flourescent lighting over a thirty gallon tank being considered only moderate lighting for a reef tank!

Also the time it takes to go from bare tank to addition of corals and livestock is measured in weeks and months  for SW not days like FW. It might be tough to tell your daghter to wait until Chrismas to put NEMO in a tank when you put the first salt water in it in late September or October.  

But lots of fun once up and running.

Ron

Kanata

613 599-9662

[kennyman]

I thought the sump's main purpose was a refuge for aquatic plant life to pull out nitrAtes.

Is there another way to remove nitrAtes in a FW or SW setup that does not include 30% - 50% water changes every week?

PS; Hey Dark I have a spare male P.e 'bee' (the mbuna type in my avitar) If your interested. I don't know whats on your list but a good profile of them is over at cichlid-forum.com. It's suposed to be a F1 from chezk or something like that. They were selling them as P.e Mpanga at SP on Terryfox. But its a 'Bee" as far as I can tell. Not a very common fish and rather nicly coloured I think.

[Marx]

nah sumps are mainly for water volume and equipment.. a refugium is for microalgea and nitrate removal as you called it..

[srenka]

So here's what I don't get..."skimmers"...Explain to my why nobody uses these in freshwater?

You can use a surface skimmer in FW, however with adequate surface agitation they are not really required.  What you probably are asking about are the foam fractionators (protein skimmers) which remove proteins.  These will not work in FW without some chemical added, which kind of defeats their purpose.  Fresh water doesn't foam well.

I don't understand "Live Rock" or "Live sand"...help?

Live rock is just rock with micro chambers where bacteria and other organisms live.   All this life contributes to removal on nitrates.  One way this works, is just like the plenum (low oxygen water chamber) with low oxygen areas harbouring bacteria that use nitrate, thereby removing it from aquarium.  

I'm sure there are a lot people here that can explain this a lot better (and have a lot greater knowledge) then I.

I'd relay like to have a nemo tank, but... can't justify the cost at this time, and don't have enough experience with fish yet.

sarenka

[darkdep]

Rockgarden: Thanks!  I remember you mentioning that you lived around the corner from me.  Lemme know a good evening and I'll bring my 4 year old over to have her approve things

Kennyman:  How big is your Bee?  Got any bigger pics?  I might be interested.

Ok, so I understand that protein skimmers don't work in freshwater well because of chemistry...cool.  

For "Live Rock", why is there no live rock or live sand for freshwater?  

Do you still have to do water changes for saltwater if you have all this nitrate-absorbing live-stuff everywhere?

Do people use Canister filters with SW?

So, given what I have, I'd need at a minimum some high intensity lighting, and a protein skimmer (maybe?)...live sand/rock, ok, anything else I should look at as far as equipment is concerned?

[gator]

For "Live Rock", why is there no live rock or live sand for freshwater?  

Do you still have to do water changes for saltwater if you have all this nitrate-absorbing live-stuff everywhere?

Do people use Canister filters with SW?

So, given what I have, I'd need at a minimum some high intensity lighting, and a protein skimmer (maybe?)...live sand/rock, ok, anything else I should look at as far as equipment is concerned?

I gues there is "live rock and sand" for freshwater, as bacteria can grow on anything, but the idea of live rock is that it is extremely porous, so you get much more surface area for the bacteria, and since it is "live" it comes pre-seeded with a lot of the beneficial bacteria required.

I personally don't do water changes, but I do use a high-end protein skimmer, bioballs, a refugium with macroalgae, carbon and phosban from time to time, and I carefully supplement most trace elements.  I also run a calcium reactor to boost calcium for my corals.   Over time, my system has stabilized, but I used to do water changes of 5% every month or so.

For my first sytem I used an eheim 2227 wet/dry for supplemental filtration.   I was advised to get rid of it, since it was a "nitrate factory", but my nitrate levels never got above 10 ppm.  I eventually removed the media from it and just used it for water motion and to run carbon in it from time to time.

I'd use some form of supplemental filtration until you get the hang of things, but otherwise you've got the right idea.  I wouldn't shell out the extra dough for "live" sand though, just get some crushed coral/aragonite, it will become "live" soon enough with the bacteria/critters from your live rock.

[darkdep]

Ok, I'm still confused.  Please excuse me, I'm the kind of person who won't do anything until fully understanding it.

I still don't understand the deal with "Live Rock" and "Live Sand".  If "Live Rock" is just porous rock that contains lots of bacteria, then all the rock I have in all my tanks is "Live" with said bacteria.  As is my substrate.  But I never hear anyone use these terms with FW...

And if this is the secret to de-nitrification, then why doesn't it do that in FW?

From your description, you have a sump (extra water for stability), a skimmer which presumably removes most waste before it can decompose into bad stuff, the bioballs for a wet-dry very effective biofilter, a refugium for converting most of the nitrates into...well, I guess nitrogen gas to escape...

So, other than adding some calcium and trace elements, is your tank essentially maintenance free?

[gator]

Yep, it's virtually maintainence free, other than topping off the RO resevoir and emptying out the skimmer cup once in a while.

One componet which makes the live rock work well is water movement.   Turn over from return pumps, power heads, etc. should be at a minumum 10 per hour.   The idea is that there should be no dead spots in the tank where detritus can accumulate, and cyanobacteria can proliferate.  And remember, it's not just the bacteria in live rock that filters the water, there are also a multitude of critters such a copepods, worms, etc. that help with the nitrogen cycle.    I'm not sure you get that kind of growth in freshwater systems.

[darkdep]

I forgot about the water issue...do you need to do the whole RO/DI thing to do effective small-scale saltwater?

[jaracas]

'Live Rock' for SW is placed in the aquarium with micro and macro fauna already in place from the wild, you dont know what you are gonna get till it pops out (some of it good, some of it not so)



the nearest thing we would get in FW would be lava rock which hasn't any life on it when introduced to the tank and would only really be colonised by bacteria. and that takes time.

[DARKPHREAK]

I forgot about the water issue...do you need to do the whole RO/DI thing to do effective small-scale saltwater?

I didnt ro/di. I WILL do it soon. The whole system is around 140$ and well worth it. Algea in freshwater is ok but when it starts to cover 500$ in live rock well... The smaller the tank the faster bad things can happen.

[Insane79]

the smaller the tank the fewer choices you have too.  Many fish need at least 4 feet of swimming room and many corals need a good 50lbs of live rock in order to survive (cause they feed off the inverts that come on the rocks). Usually you keep 1lbs per gallon (course if you have a sump, you can put more live rock.   I have a 20 gallon, and I really regret not having gone bigger.  I find it limitting.  But it was all I could afford at the time.