Freshwater sumps

[Adam]

So I'm thinking of either a 150 gallon or 125 gallon with overflows.  Problem is, I've never had a sump before.  I know the basic premises, but that's about it.  The sump would be going underneath the aquarium in the stand.

I have a 33 gallon...36" x 12" x 18" tall, would that be enough volume for the sump?  If not, what size should I be looking for? 

The overflows are pre-made, holes drilled and the aquarium is plumbed.  What should I do about getting it from the bottom of the aquarium into the sump?  Does the sump inflow tube (the one from the aquarium) always stay underwater?  What about the pump?  What level in relation to the inflow tube should the outflow tube be?

There are some holes drilled in the top, for breaking the syphon effect when the power goes off.  How can I make sure my sump is going to be able to take all that water before it hits that point?

What kind of pump would I need, or does this depend on how much water is beingdrawn through the intake? How do I measure that?

I know how baffles work, but can I put foam/pillow stuffing in between to get my filtration?  Is that how a freshwater sump works?  I have seen a lot of diagrams from saltwater sites, but there are always specialized compartments and no filtration media other than some macroalgae or more LR.  How much division should be between my baffles?  I've googled it, but I couldn't come up with any good solutions.

Adam

[PoisonJello]

well I don't know to much about sumps other then stuff i have read but a 33 gallon sump should be big enough for 100gal to 135gal tank size...I know thats not much help 

[Aquaviewer]

I guess the question is why do you want a sump on a fresh?  I looked into it a while back and if you are doing a large planted set up a sump may not give you any advantage over a couple of canisters and after you have bought all the gear won't be any cheaper.

Is there a particular reason you want to run a sump?

[darkdep]

Bitterman can answer a lot of these questions...he runs a 172gal Frontosa tank with a 30gal sump. 

The benefits of sumps apply both to freshwater and saltwater; I think the only reason they are more common in Saltwater is because the livestock is in general more delicate and the "extra water volume" benefit is more useful there.

Sumps increase water volume; increase oxygen levels, provide an area to grow "nutrient-absorbing" plants to act as another form of filtration; provide a place out of the main tank to put equipment like heaters, and provide a huge area for various filtration media. 

[Adam]

Sumps increase water volume; increase oxygen levels, provide an area to grow "nutrient-absorbing" plants to act as another form of filtration; provide a place out of the main tank to put equipment like heaters, and provide a huge area for various filtration media. 

This is exactly why I want to have a sump.  More water volume, somewhere to put my heaters, and I don't want to have so many canisters to clean and tubes going everywhere.  Just a few pieces of large foam and I can take them out and rinse every once in awhile. 

Adam

[bitterman]

Yes as APW mentioned, I do run a 172 tank with 20 gallon sump. My gallery has some of pics taken during construction of the stand etc.



As AWP mentioned a sump helps increase the volume of water for a given tank. This allows better conditions for fish, and more heavy stocking of the main tank. Additionally it allows for a trickle filter that is the best Biological filters you can have.

Here is the link to the article on the Trickle filter I built:

It also allows me to hide my heaters and have less accessories in the main tank.

My setup consists of My 172 Gallon drilled tank (Durso standpipes are the best!!! loo)  http://www.rl180reef.com/pages/standpipe/standpipe_frame.htm

Having a sump also made setting up my DIY water changer system very easy. Here is the article for it as well: http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=52

Waterflow:
The water goes down through the OVerflow in the tank and out the durso standpipe to the DIY trickle filter. After passed through the trickle filter the water ends up in my 30 gallon glass sump (I used to have duckweed in here to act as a nitrate sponge, but it all died after the water change system was implemented) From here the water is returned to the main tank using a Mag 12 (1200 GPH pump, but really only have about 900-950 GHP due to height the water is pumping) The water is then returned to the tank via my DIY spraybar.


The typical problem of protein building up in the surface of the water is not a problem on my tank. The protein is skimmed off and eventually ends up in my sump. I clean it occasionally (Syphon it off). Also much of the dirt that ends up in the substrate, now ends up at the pre-filter on my Trickle filter.

[Adam]

Thanks a lot, bitterman. 

How high is the water level in your sump?  Do you have any pictures of the sump as it is now?  The premade overflows come with a durso standpipe style system, with the inverted intake pipe.  However, the difference is in where the water comes from.  The overflows have 3 intakes (bottom, middle and top), versus your single top overflow...would this make any difference when the power goes out? 

I can get a 1000gph pump, but that is the theoretical value.  It's actual value is probably like 700 gph, maybe less..which is less than 5x turnover.  Should I look for something with more power?  I guess I'm stuck with the notion of 10x turnover, but that can get quite expensive and cumbersome in a large aquarium.  When the power goes out, how high does the water level in the sump go?

Thanks,

Adam

EDIT:  I found some diagrams of what it looks like...I answered my own question about the three intakes with this picture:

http://www.all-glass.com/products/aquariums/index.html

The balance between inflow and outflow is determined by the water level in the aquarium?  More water means faster flow, and less means slower...and there is a balance between pump output and gravity intake?

[bitterman]

My water level in the sump varies due the the automatic water change system. Yours will also without is as evaporation occurs, your sump level will drop, but your tank level wiil stay constant.

I'm unsure how you overflow is setup, but the water level will most likely be driven by the heigth of the durso (Water level end up about 1/2 up the T fitting on the durso) When the power goes out you need to ensure your sump will hold any runoff that occurs from your tank (Don't keep your sump totally full).

I would look at the mag 12 and mag 18 (You probaly goin to have 4-6' of head depending on your setup, or go with 2 pumps incase 1 fails your still have cirulation)
Danner Mag-Drive 1200 Supreme Water Pump     
Specifications:
Input: 3/4"
Output: 3/4"
Flow Rate at 0' Head: 1200 GPH
Flow Rate at 4' Head: 1100 GPH
Flow Rate at 6' Head: 950 GPH

Mag-Drive 1800 Supreme Water Pump
Specifications:
Input: 3/4"
Output: 3/4"
Flow Rate at 0' Head: 1800 GPH
Flow Rate at 4' Head: 1390 GPH
Flow Rate at 6' Head: 1125 GPH


Hope this helps,
    Bruce.

[Adam]

If I were to get two pumps, which would be sufficient?  I'm seriously considering the step down to a 125 with the same overflow system because of the $200 difference, and more ease of maintenance without a 29" tall aquarium....but 29" tall does make it seem a lot bigger and nicer...  With that in mind, I would be looking at 2 pumps with 600-700gph each after a 4' - 5' head...

The mag 12 is too powerful...are there any economical pumps in the range I just stated?  Money is a slight issue as I don't want to spend hundreds on pumps that would do the same as a lesser brand...especially with 2 running. 

Adam

[darkphreak]

You cant run 2 return pumps from a sump. You'd never get the same flow rates from either pump which might cause a problem, never consider a return pump your primary source of water movement, in that case you'd want to run a closed-loop system. I use a Mag 12 on my AGA 210g and it works just fine. You will need an auto top off unit to deal with evap issues also. And I'll suggest calling Big's Al in Point Claire for your tank, it could save you alot of money because for some reason their tanks are priced far cheaper then Ottawa area stores.

[bitterman]

I would go with a mag 12, probably the best bang for the $. I am very happy with mine and alot of SW guy seam to swear by them. They are also very effiecent pumps so they use less electricity. The difference is cost between this pump and another coudl be saved in less then a year of running.

http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/pumps.php?product_ID=wp-mag12

jlaquatics also carries heaters at a reasonable price, so adding them, and any extras you need to your order should put you to the $200 mark and result in no shipping charges.

Also its better to have a stronger pump, then one that is too weak. You can T off in the sump and put a ball valve to allow you to adjust your flow to the main tank (Excess just goes back into the sump.). I would probably build a spray bar for you tank out of PVC. Its easy to do and saves soem money too. Also a spray bar helps keep the oxygen levels up.

My tank also has an XP3 for mechanicle filtration on the main tank. It also keep so of the nutrifying bacteria alive with a long powere outage.

If you are running 2 pumps you need a separate straybar and return for both. I would build 2 strya bar and hook 1 pump to each, But is money is a concern, just use 1 pump like the mag 12.

If you have any questions, or want to see I how I did things (My not be perfect, but has worked for almost a year) Pm me and maybe we can arrange a visit for you to look at my mess of DIY

Bruce