Hermit Crab deaths?

[fender316]

Hi there i have 20G reef, recently went on vacation and when i got back i had no hermit crabs left.  i thought maybe they starved cause i never feed the tank......so i bought 25 from Marinescape last week, but i think i got a catastrophe here cause theres only 1 left.  my shrimp died last night, i turned off my heater 2 weeks ago but the temp kept on rising and was up near 88 last night.  apparently the lid is retaining heat and its too damn hot in my basement.  i got the lid off, temp is now at 82, hopefully it'll go down to 78.  WHY ARE ALL MY HERMIT CRABS DEAD? i got a dark cloud hovering above me i tell ya.  as far as i know theres like 24 hermit crabs rotting away in my tank that cant be good for nitrates.  anyone here an expert who can give me some insight on this?  id like to be 100% sure that the crabs died from the heat before i go buy another 25.  are they sensitive too anything that i can test for?  it sucks cause they're all dead, my bloodshrimp is dead, but the damn hitchiker crabs are still alive and being menaces, what gives?

[Julie]

How old is your reef?  Any ideas on nitrates?

88 is what killed your shrimp.

[fender316]

Yeah i was pretty sure the temp killed my shrimp.  funny how you mention nitrates, cause they've always been high and i cant get asnwers about.  near 20ppm, the test is hard to read though when its over 10ppm.  i've been testing them weekly for the last few months, stopped all feeding and did regular water changes, nitrates just wont drop.  i asked the guys at marinescape and they said add more live rock, do waterchanges.  im kinda desperate for another solution even if it doesnt exist.  i thought of putting on my aquaclear 20, throwing some carbon in, i dunno what to do.  marinescape said it wont help so i didnt bother.....heres my info

20G Reef
30 pounds fiji rock
put the rocks in Dec27, 2006 (9 months)
2 maxijet 400s
1 seaclone 100 protein skimmer, bought it to help with the nitrate.  doesn really collect any foam its a pretty big unit for my 20G, i like the current it produces though, helps aerate the water i think.


i got a starfish, plenty of corals, havnt lost a coral excecpt for an occasional mushroom that might fall off the rock and get lost somewhere, i guess thats a symptom of high nitrate.  my goby survives off they tank, the system seems to be pretty cycled.  lots of algea, green to red coraline algea.  i dont know what the green hard coraline algea is about.  i recently got a tuxedo urchin, he's going nuts eating all the algea.  algea doesnt bother me, im no expert but doesnt it help reduce nitrate.  it blomed out of control few months back thats when i realised the nitrates were high and started the water changes, try to do one at least every two weeks sometimes weekly.  i've always wanted to throw on the aquaclearfilter seeing as there is no filter, but supposedly it just traps the bacteria and produces more nitrate.  what exactly does carbon in the filter do?  i use the freshwater stuff with zeolite granules in my 75G and 55G, its for NH i guess and color and odour, clears it up.  doesnt really say anything about nitrate though.  i just did a search on the net what is this "Kent Marine Nitrate Sponge Filter Media" stuff.  anyone ever heard of it?

[Julie]

Well a goby is not a big fish, so it wouldn't be a big pooper and isn't the cause of your nitrate problem.
What are you feeding?

Carbon will just eliminate any chemical warfare in the tank.
The skimmer will control the existing nitrate, but won't decrease what's already there.

How deep is the sand?  Also have you considered some macroalgae in the tank to absorb nitrates?

Like they said at marinescape, maybe a couple more pieces of rock, make things more efficient and yes the water changes.

[fender316]

Hey thanks for the answers, what happened was i bought a sun coral few months ago and i didnt do well, i think me feeding it was the cause of the nitrate, im still kinda clueless about all this.  i gave the suncoral to my sister and it did well in her tank she already had one.  unfortunately she never feeds them so they recently started to die so i told her to spot feed them more, they're hanging for the time being.  i still find it weird that i have no real filter on the tank and the live rock does it all.  i dont really have any space for more live rock the tank is tall.  my sand is just less than 2 inchs, i wish i had put sand more in when i set up the tank, and chosen a different tank but i had no idea what i was doing.   I have no clue what macroalgea is that phytoplankton?  like i said i got lots of algea, theres a certain type that came with my live rock it can get out of control.  i got another type from marinscape that doesnt real grow too bad, its like stringy green stuff.  again i have no clue what macroalgea is, is it seaweed?

[Julie]

It does look like seaweed, grape caleupera(sp), chaeto - just like the greenery in fresh, likes trates.

I have a hob but I only use it as a pump for flow and sometimes for carbon. 
Another idea would be too simply place an ac sponge in the tank and it will populate with bacteria, and the clean up crew should look after the rest of it.

I have less sand than you, about 1.5, dsb isn't the only way to go.  Some use bare bottom.

keep up with the water changes, that should return things to normal.  Watch the temp in the heat, turn the lights off if necessary to control the temp, don't want it going to 88.

[fender316]

WOw you're being so helpful thanks! but OMG with the salt water jargon...easy there.  hob? ac sponge? what?  i gather macroalgea is just all the different types off algea growing in the tank.  i got lots of that, the urchin i recently got wont help that though.  at least i got enough sand you say, but when i set up my 75 im gonna put 3 inchs, try and do it right.  i heard 4inchs is the max you should do.....i think i got the temp thing figured out, ill try and get that down to room temp (78).  this nitrate thing has always been an issue with me though, now i got all these hermit crabs, i can see a few dead ones i cant get at, most have all disappeared so im worried that'll add to the nitrates.   when corals eat they eventually excrete, does that add nitrate?  i wish i had a better book.  snails, tubeworms and crabs for instance,  doesnt their poo add nitrate? or is it too minute?  see i notice you got a sailfin, is that a pleco?  if so i just sold mine , he was over a footlong, i miss him already.  now theres a shitter.  freshwater is different though obviously......again what is a hob? and "ac" sponge im not sure what that is.  im really considering going to big als tomorrow to see if they got this Kent Marine Nitrate Sponge Filter Media.  chemical filtration yeah baby!  i'll use that and do a water change every week and see what happens. 

[Julie]

AC=aquaclear HOB= hang on back filter

The clean up crew will dispose of the hermits(bristleworms), not the shells though.
They are minute in the big picture regarding bioload.

I wouldn't waste money on any miracle cures, these nitrate sponges don't work, only water changes will.

My sailfin is a big guy too and he's a pooper, he keeps the oscars company. 

[fender316]

okay sounds good i might put the spongs on the maxijets they really colonate with bacteria when i do that.  the only question i got left is how often can i get away with doing 10 percent water changes, every week?  if i could do one every few days that might get some results but i dont want to stress my tank out

[laffy]

20ppm of nitrates may have helping in the nuking of the shrimp. have you tried seachem prime to help control your chemisty?

[fender316]

yes i got a small bottle for that reason, i read on the back it says extra can be added "in and emergency".  i havn't noticed much differnce.  i've been doing %10 water changes only though cause i thought that was the recomended monthly amount but the other night i decided to do %25 (used prime as well).  for the first time i noticed a significant drop in nitrates, they are closer to 10ppm now.  my corals didnt seem to mind the major water change either....

[Julie]

That's great, a much more exceptable amount.

How about some pics of those happy corals>?

[jimskoi]

If its any help to you.I do a 10% water change every weekend(saturday)I have a 125 gal reef with a 75 gal sump/refuge.The temp is what probally killed the hermits and the shrimp.Any snails die?THey would of been the first to go.All that rotting items in your tank would crash it.Do a good water change and then 10% evey week from then on.Evertone has there own way of doing things that work for them.This seems to work for mr.I also have s un coral.They are very hard to keep.Ive had this for about 3 weeks so far.

jim

[gvv]

IMO, the temp is only one thing that could kill them in your case. Do you have anything else in the tank? How old is your tank?

Now several questions:
- Are you sure that crabs are really dead? I usually finding crabs "left-overs" when they just molting. And it looks like crabs!!!
- Why do you need 24 crabs in 20G? I have less in my 90G and should say I can see them only during feeding time, all other time they are hiding.

BTW, don't suggest to have Sun Coral in 20G. Sun coral "loves" to eat, but at the same time demands crystal clear water. This is difficult to make in 20G. I have "breeding" one and I feed him once per 2-3 days. Never overfeed...

Regards

BTW: 88 - how much is it in Celsius? I'm not sure I can understand in Fahrenheit... In my tank I usually have 25-26C.

[fender316]

i had 3 snails, an urchin and starfish and they all survived.  just bought more snails cause i think i need em.  and i cant really answer why i had 25 other than that's how many marinescape sells for the "deal".  they said its fine to have that many, and most people i've talked too had at least around 1 hermit crab per gallon, i dont know its not written in stone.  and yes im sure they are dead im not blind, i wouldnt be wasting my time with this post otherwise.  i thank those that helped me and gave me some answers to my problem.  i'll try and get some pics tomorrow, i find my frogspawn to be more vibrant earlier in the day.  heres a couple for now, the gorgonia in the 2nd pic isnt 100% since the water change.  i hate my camera, cant focus, need the flash to get any clear pic but then all you see is the flash reflection.....

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Julie]

Frogspawn is a good indicator of water quality.  The more it opens up the better the h20.

[gvv]

In this case I doubt hermits gone because of water temp/quality - they would be the last who will die and definitely after corals/fish ... Also if some hermits will die, others will take care of them. In your case they were dead all at a time. Pretty strange. How much time passed after acclimatization?

What type of water you are using for water changes?

[fender316]

they died a week after i got them, relatively the same night as the shrimp when my heat peaked (i could see a few of them still dead in their shells the next day.  those guys got eaten up at night by all the live critters.  maybe they couldnt handle the change in nitrate levels....i think only 3 survived, right now i can only see 1 of them.  im just using house water what else can i use?

[gvv]

I asked about the water as there was a thread in the FW discussion about losses in FW tank due to city water treatment, but it seems it was before your losses.

Preferably is to use RO/Distilled water, so if it is possible you may invest into RO/DI unit. I even use the same RO water for my FW (soft water tank) water changes: 50% RO/50% tap.

I'm still cannot believe that temp/nitrate spike will kill nearly all hermits, but will not make any harm to corals...

[Julie]

I can't say i've read literature on hermits, but I do find them to be quite sensitive to water quality/ temp.  I've noticed they all come out after a water change or some heavy skimming.

I use my tap water for water changes, it's high ph and alkaline - perfect for the reef.