condominium rules

[littlelil]

Hi,

i am moving in to a condo in a few weeks and I want to build a pond for my turtles. I haven't gotten the rules book for the condo yet, but we asked the previous owners and they said the rules were that we couldn't do anything permanent (?) to the yard and that it couldn't be fenced from the public area....? it's one of those houses that have the fence only at the sides of the yard and not the back and the back opens into a big public space...

anyone live in a condo and can give me some rough ideas of what condo rules are like and whether or not you'd be allowed to build a pond in "your backyard"... i say that in quotations because apparently we are only allowed to do certain things to the backyard even though its "ours".....?

does anyone have a problem with their condo board and ponds and if so, are there methods of getting around this rule?

thanks!

[lost_at_sea]

Condo's are usually very strict on rules like that.... to be honest the best way to get around this is to either do one of 2 things.

A) Do first ask questions later... just make sure you have a backup plan if they make you take it down...

B) The political answer... get yourself elected to the board or at least attend the board meetings and get a motion proposed and passed that would allow you to do what you want to do without explicitly stating you want to build a turtle pond.

If you have a lawyer friend they might be able to help you understand the rules too...

[Jeff1192]

Yeah usually condos are pretty anal about their rules. I would be shocked if they would allow you to do something like that. But as Lost at Sea said, if you build it first (with a backup plan) it might work. 


Jeff

[littlelil]

cool beans. i like that plan! 

thanks!

[Quatro]

make it an above ground pond (ie. a 2x4 frame with a pond liner).  They shouldn't have any problems with that.

[bergenm]

Stick some plants in and call it a water garden - if any one asks, the turtles are there for pest control...

I doubt the condo rules specify the difference between soil and soil-less gardening 

[Laura]

Anything more shallow than 24" does not require any fencing.  You could build it above ground as someone suggested with a preform pond.

[Hookup]

how are you going to get a backhoe in there with/out piss'n everyone off???  Wait, you're not going to dig it by hand are you??? omg manual labour... runnnnn!

[Brine]

Deeper than 24" (above or below ground) requires the thing to be fenced so children don't drown. City by-laws.
Ancient wisdom says "sometimes it is more prudent to beg forgiveness than to ask permission"
That is what I did. I built the pond and hoped the landlord wouldn't make me take it out. They liked it so much they reimbursed me for my expenses. WooHoo.

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[littlelil]

Stick some plants in and call it a water garden - if any one asks, the turtles are there for pest control...

I doubt the condo rules specify the difference between soil and soil-less gardening 

HA. this is brilliant!! you people are so sly, it sometimes makes me wonder 

the pond would be less than 24", dug by hand (lol, no backhoe), er, rather, dug by my husband's hand like my last pond, when he was still just a boyfriend (can't believe he stuck around to marry me!), and the fence would not be because of the laws, but because i wouldn't want any darn neighborhood kids touchin' my turtles (or falling into the pond, law or not, nobody wants to listen to annoying parents complain about their kids falling into ponds, )...

hopefully nobody will question me about the big hole in my yard before the "water garden" is done! 

[White Lightning]

I live in a condo and I have a three foot deep pond in my backyard. I never bothered to ask permission.I just figured that since my neighbour has one, I should be alllowed as well.  But then again my backyard differs from yours whereas it is fenced in. I would go with the suggestion of an above ground pond. Just say it's a rain barrel and the turtle moved in on their own.

[Canoe]

Is is truly a condo or is it a free-hold town-home with common areas, different wordings regarding title to "your" land and an owners' joint-use agreement? There are legal differences.

Did your lawyer get a full copy of all agreements and rules to check them out before you bought? And gave you a complete copy when you purchased? And explained your rights and obligations under such? What did your lawyer say about your plan to build a pond there? Some condo disputes have run into tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, plus the cost of returning a property to its prior condition. Do check with your lawyer first - especially before asking anyone in authority at the "condo". No point in giving anyone there a heads up so they can change the rules or pre-decide negatively on a request/course-of-action that is valid/allowed/legal, etc., causing you an unnecessary and potentially costly fight. Note that at some condos/free-hold locations, some allowed activities/uses require prior permission, or the activity/use is not legally valid. Usually such requests and permissions have to be written - it's a good idea to have proof of permission in writing anyway, even if it's just an email from someone on the board informing you that you are correct, such use isn't prohibited.

Have you walked around the area to see if any others have the same or similar wet-garden feature that you'd like to add to (what may or may not be) your property. If so, ask them what they had to do to install it. If they required permission of the board, etc., human nature is balanced such that they'd likely volunteer that and any problems they had with such (i.e., whatever you do, don't ask to install a pond, make a wet-garden).

A child can drown in 2" of water. The yard (pond space/location) isn't enclosed by a fence and opens onto common property. Even if a bylaw does or doesn't specifically require a pond fence, it is on "your" property under your care and control. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be discussing bylaw requirements with the parents of a dead child?

A child can drown in 2" of water. Perhaps you should consider a small "pest-control" fence for your "wet-garden" with its pest-control inhabitants.

I assume that pest-control inhabitants are required to ensure there are no problems with mosquitoes and West Nile or the like. You can certainly ensure any objectors to your wet-garden of the pest-control measures you are willing to take. ("Well if you insist, I'll put in a couple of turtles. Actually, I insist - let's be sure. This way it can't impact you.")

How large did you intend to make this wet-garden? Another alternative could be a very large natural bird-bath, with plants, and with pest-control inhabitants. A cedar frame, much like that of a hot tub (on or above ground), would also add cedar wood colour to the space, be it left to turn grey, clear sealed to keep the warm cedar colour or stained to your taste. It could incorporate a bench around it, for both viewing and for a place to work from? At a height such that curious eyes that may wonder into the yard when you aren't present can see into your garden without feeling the need to climb up to see in? Perhaps benches aren't a good idea, since you're not within a fenced yard. This structure could move with you if you move to another residence. There may be a legal/permission difference (re. condo, legal title or joint-use agreement) between a wet-garden/natural-bird-bath in the ground, on the ground or above the ground.

Do check with your lawyer on how to proceed - first.

[Nerine]

Very well posted Canoe

[littlelil]

Did your lawyer get a full copy of all agreements and rules to check them out before you bought? And gave you a complete copy when you purchased? And explained your rights and obligations under such? What did your lawyer say about your plan to build a pond there? Some condo disputes have run into tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, plus the cost of returning a property to its prior condition. Do check with your lawyer first - especially before asking anyone in authority at the "condo". No point in giving anyone there a heads up so they can change the rules or pre-decide negatively on a request/course-of-action that is valid/allowed/legal, etc., causing you an unnecessary and potentially costly fight. Note that at some condos/free-hold locations, some allowed activities/uses require prior permission, or the activity/use is not legally valid. Usually such requests and permissions have to be written - it's a good idea to have proof of permission in writing anyway, even if it's just an email from someone on the board informing you that you are correct, such use isn't prohibited.

Hey Canoe, Thanks for the info. this is really helpful. I didn't know that we can get copies of the condo rules before we actually get the house....

Our house is actually a condo. All our fees take care of everything outside our house including the siding, doors, windows, yard care, etc..

I am meeting our lawyer next week to sign some final papers for the house. I'll bring it up at the meeting..

Thanks!

[caro]

If it's a condo, then you don't own the outside walls, roof, driveway/parking lot, or yard.  That belongs to the corporation.  You only own the insides.  At least, that is how the condo was set up that I used to live in.

Maybe a deal breaker for you?

[littlelil]

Maybe a deal breaker for you?

Unfortunately not. We've already bought the house and we move in in two weeks.

I'll get my "water garden"... it's just a matter of how it's going to have to be built and which rules i need to break and or/ how i can get around the rules without breaking them... i'll get my "watergarden"....

I think bergenm has it right by saying that it's a water garden, because many of the neighbors have converted their entire yard into a garden. We are also allowed to put those garden tiles down to cover the yard as long as it is a specific tile type. So i wouldn't imagine it would be wrong to put down some of those tiles and place an above-ground "planter" on the tiles... and fill it with water... for my water garden!!

nevertheless, i will check the rules, and see what needs to be done..

[Cbellehumeur]

i hope no kids take your turtles!! so i hope you can add a back to your fence. i'm pretty sure without the fence they Will dissappear within a week. 

[gerryo]

How many turtles did you say you have?  And how many kids in the neighbourhood?

GONNA BE SOME HAPPY LITTLE UNS.

[Fishnut]

Condo rules are very specific in some developments.  This is perhaps something that should have been explored before you removed the condition regarding approval of the status certificate.  If you call your Realtor or your lawyer, you should be able to get a better idea of how you can accomplish this.

Anyways, the condo corporation is run by a board made up of owners in the development and trust me when I say that if you have violated their carefully thought out rules and regulations and refuse to correct the violation, you will have pissed off your neighbours...who can stop in to ask when you are going to change the water garden and make it known to everyone in the development that you are breaking the rules, etc.  If you're allowed to violate the rules, then someone else will try and so on and so on.  Soon the rules and regulations will be useless and the condo corporation will not be able to run smoothly.

I've heard some horror stories.  They may also create a big stink because there are "salmonella carrying turtles in the back yard and children will get sick from their presence".  See, most people have no idea about healthy reptiles and will create an issue when there otherwise isn't one if it means you will be forced to conform.  You never know how far people will go and as of now, the yard isn't fenced in.

Some condo corporations are very particular with the look of the development...controlling what colour you can paint your front door and other exterior finishes or what kinds of things you can do to the outside of the unit.  USUALLY, fencing in the back of a partially fenced in yard is ok, but it means you are responsible for the upkeep...which I'm guessing isn't an issue.

Modification: This isn't really an issue now since you're just moving in, but if you have a condo corporation violation and you try to sell, that may create suspicion in buyers...or they might get stuck correcting your violation and call their lawyer after closing.

[Quatro]

I live in a condo and found out today that I am not allowed to leave recycling bins on my deck/patio.  I've been here a year and no problems for me but one of my neighbors was issued a letter from the board for that reason (his is a corner unit and more visible).  That just shows you how crazy some of the rules are and how people will make a big deal out of them.